The Folk Prophet Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 Shame: Oxford: a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. MW: a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety Dictionary.com: the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous,etc., done by oneself or another Vort 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Just reviewing the abstract, this idea proposed seems SO much more in line with my feelings/thinking on the matter: "shame has been redefined in a variety of ways in an attempt to distinguish functional shame from problematic shame." This makes so much more sense than trying to define shame as separate from guilt and then calling guilt good and shame bad. Shame and guilt, even if defined differently, both have their place, and both can be healthy, and both can be unhealthy. My sense is and has been than someone who feels no shame is a sociopath. That's not good. @LiterateParakeet, guilt and shame are different things that exist in the same sphere. Both are good when used for good, both are bad when used for bad (misplaced guilt/shame - feeling guilt or shame for something that is not immoral, or incorrect response to guilt/shame such as committing suicide). For example: When you consume pornography, you can feel guilt for hurting your wife and you can feel shame for being an addict. Both are good. Guilt signals your brain that you did something wrong so you can stop doing it. Shame signals your brain that you have become somebody you don't want to be so you can change. This goes hand in hand with Christ's teaching that adultery is not just having relations with somebody not your wife but also the desire to have relations with somebody not your wife (including consuming pornography). The teaching tells you to go beyond just not doing it but also to change such that you don't even have the desire to do it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dprh Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said: Shame: Oxford: a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. MW: a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety Dictionary.com: the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous,etc., done by oneself or another Dictionary definitions are great. But for complex ideas like emotions and feelings, they are often lacking. These definitions could easily be used to define guilt to. Since we have two words with similar denotations, the connotations have evolved in different directions. See my earlier post about the differences. Brene Brown has a lot of information on shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 58 minutes ago, dprh said: Dictionary definitions are great. But for complex ideas like emotions and feelings, they are often lacking. These definitions could easily be used to define guilt to. Since we have two words with similar denotations, the connotations have evolved in different directions. True as far as it goes. The problem that I see is that the "bad" definition of shame has been cooked up by the "shame is bad" contingent. Just because they declare a new definition of a word that they then unite in piling on—a practice that in other cases is quickly identified as "attacking a straw man"—doesn't mean I must, or should, accept their redefinition. In the case of the word "shame", I think it's a perfectly valid and useful word. I will not accept the redefinition. If the "shame is bad" folks really want to beat up on a word, let them make up their own word or phrase, maybe "toxic shame" as opposed to "healthy shame" (such people seem to like the word "toxic"), and then flail away on that. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Vort said: True as far as it goes. The problem that I see is that the "bad" definition of shame has been cooked up by the "shame is bad" contingent. Just because they declare a new definition of a word that they then unite in piling on—a practice that in other cases is quickly identified as "attacking a straw man"—doesn't mean I must, or should, accept their redefinition. In the case of the word "shame", I think it's a perfectly valid and useful word. I will not accept the redefinition. If the "shame is bad" folks really want to beat up on a word, let them make up their own word or phrase, maybe "toxic shame" as opposed to "healthy shame" (such people seem to like the word "toxic"), and then flail away on that. It was very illuminating back in 2008, listening to three thousand gay rights supporters marching around Temple Square screaming “SHAME ON YOU!!!”. It’s not all shame they want to banish; just the shame that tends to reinforce traditional morals and values. Vort, mordorbund and The Folk Prophet 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 @The Folk Prophet I chose the article that I shared with you specifically because it pointed out that (like so many things) the researchers don't agree. So not surprising that we here on the board don't agree on this topic either. For me the key is that social scientist are researching it, it's not just someone's (or some group's) opinion. And yet, they can't agree, so maybe that's not so helpful after all. @anatess2 since the researchers disagree, it's not surprising that we might see it differently as well. The research that Brene Brown, and others, have done on shame resonates with me. From her research, there is a difference between guilt and shame, one is helpful and productive, and the other is harmful. That's were I stand on this. https://brenebrown.com/articles/2013/01/14/shame-v-guilt/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said: social scientist Gotta tell ya, I consider this an oxymoron. Few people are less scientific than "social scientists". anatess2 and The Folk Prophet 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 6 hours ago, dprh said: the connotations have evolved in different directions. Says some people. Others say different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted May 17, 2019 Report Share Posted May 17, 2019 1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said: @The Folk Prophet I chose the article that I shared with you specifically because it pointed out that (like so many things) the researchers don't agree. So not surprising that we here on the board don't agree on this topic either. For me the key is that social scientist are researching it, it's not just someone's (or some group's) opinion. And yet, they can't agree, so maybe that's not so helpful after all. @anatess2 since the researchers disagree, it's not surprising that we might see it differently as well. The research that Brene Brown, and others, have done on shame resonates with me. From her research, there is a difference between guilt and shame, one is helpful and productive, and the other is harmful. That's were I stand on this. https://brenebrown.com/articles/2013/01/14/shame-v-guilt/ I don't have any real problems* with the ideas behind this...except that they've decided to label it "shame" and "guilt" instead of "harmful shame and guilt" and "useful shame and guilt". (Or, perhaps, "appropriate" shame/guilt.) She defines shame as: "the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging – something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection." But the literal fact is that shame doesn't mean what she's defining it to mean. So all of a sudden someone can't say, "I'm ashamed of [something]" without it being a "don't say that!" sort of thing, even if the feelings they're feeling are incredibly useful and good. *I do have one sort of problem in that the entire, "you deserve love and belonging no matter how despicable the choices you've made are", ideology doesn't quite work in my mind. So if someone beats their wife nearly to death, molests their children, lies, cheats, steals, and maybe even sneaks out at night and murders others, they should still feel like they should be accepted and belong? I'm using an extreme example to make a point. The quality of shame or guilt, in my mind, is whether its level is appropriate or not. If someone shouts at another and then feels like they're a serial killer then it isn't an appropriate response. If someone goes on a serial killing spree and then treats it like it's nothing more than having shouted at someone then it isn't an appropriate response. Appropriate shame and guilt for what one has done is appropriate. I, for example, feel ashamed at the fact that I never made it past algebra in my math studies because I can't stand doing useless go-nowhere math problems just to complete arbitrary assignments. It's not guilt. I have no guilt over the matter at all. It's straight up shame -- albeit minor. But to treat that feeling like I don't feel worthy of love or belonging would be silly. I have similar feelings about my poor financial choices, my inability to succeed in certain efforts, and my current weight. So that is part of why this sort of idea doesn't resonate with me. To claim these feelings are inappropriate would be inaccurate, because the shame is approximately appropriate to the level of failure I've had. To claim my feelings aren't shame would also be inaccurate. And yet the "don't feel shame" approach seems to be claiming exactly these two things. So I'm at a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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