"Well Behaved Women . . . "


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Guest LiterateParakeet

There is a group called Big Ocean Women that I follow on FB.  They promote a branch of feminism called "maternal feminism".   They shared this cartoon blog post about a quote you might have heard "Well behaved women seldom make history."  It doesn't mean what you think it means...or what I thought it meant either!  It's a cool blog post....

http://www.everythingisgoingtobeokcomic.com/well-behaved-women/?fbclid=IwAR2Bt17k8rIdh_fLjRDzIadhyHPFfcCM6HunE4MhORi1lmhNCuWkG7Nw_lE

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I've been thinking a bit on my own behavior (re: being a "well behaved" man...). One of the things I consistently fail at, I feel, is meekness.

This cartoon was cool, but the one section that said "I believe there is a place for both, the loud and the quiet" got me thinking about this a bit. Granted, it really depends on what one means by "the loud". But in my own interpretation, I cannot help but wonder about "the loud" and it's appropriateness (for men or women).

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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I've been thinking a bit on my own behavior (re: being a "well behaved" man...). One of the things I consistently fail at, I feel, is meekness.

This cartoon was cool, but the one section that said "I believe there is a place for both, the loud and the quiet" got me thinking about this a bit. Granted, it really depends on what one means by "the loud". But in my own interpretation, I cannot help but wonder about "the loud" and it's appropriateness (for men or women).

My take on it is Well-Behaved can be Loud (I’d put Rosa Parks in this category even if she wasn’t considered well-behaved at the time), and it can be quiet.

At the same time, Not-Well-Behaved can also be Loud and Quiet (I’d put Lisa Page in this category).

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My take on it is Well-Behaved can be Loud (I’d put Rosa Parks in this category even if she wasn’t considered well-behaved at the time), and it can be quiet.

At the same time, Not-Well-Behaved can also be Loud and Quiet (I’d put Lisa Page in this category).

Like I said, it depends on what one means by "loud". I agree though. I'm just working on thinking about meekness and how to improve it in my own interactions/life.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
19 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I've been thinking a bit on my own behavior (re: being a "well behaved" man...). One of the things I consistently fail at, I feel, is meekness.

This cartoon was cool, but the one section that said "I believe there is a place for both, the loud and the quiet" got me thinking about this a bit. Granted, it really depends on what one means by "the loud". But in my own interpretation, I cannot help but wonder about "the loud" and it's appropriateness (for men or women).

I was pondering your post, and thinking about what it means to be "loud".  Like you, I wasn't sure what I felt about that....I mean I would first need to define "loud."  I like @anatess2's mention of Rosa Parks, because I think there are times when we need to stand up against things that are wrong.  Still, I wondered how to explain (if only to myself) what it means to be loud in a good way or a bad way.  In the end, it was your comment about meekness, that helped me.  When we have an opportunity to stand against things that are wrong, we can do it in a spirit of meekness.  I believe Rosa Parks did just that.  Or we can do it from a place of pridefulness.  I think being loud and proud, in this context, is what we want to avoid.  Humility and meekness are traits of followers of God.  As you know,  that doesn't mean being weak.  Captain Moroni was humble but not weak.  I gather that he was a pretty fierce warrier, but he was humble before God.  If we let our pride rule our actions, that is not following God  

One of the Latter Day Saint Feminists I admire is Valerie Hudson Cassler.  She is a Professor of PolySci.  Her last lecture at BYU before going to Texas is recorded on youtube.   I transcribed this quote from the Q&A following her speech.  I think it is a great example of being quiet and loud (in a humble, righteous way.)

"Q: Megan Conrad, International Relations:  One of the places that I see fallen power most threatening our world is in families. It threatens families.  I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on what families and especially mothers can be doing to kind of counter that power in their true power?

A: Dr. Valerie Hudson:  Did I pay you beforehand to ask me that question? (laughs) Um, okay, I’m going to answer you straight out. I’m gonna let the chips fall where they may.  

We need the voices of mothers in the halls of power in this country.  Because they have been absent important things have been left undone and we have made invisible that which is most important to our county in the eyes of God, including things like domestic violence.  I believe that it is your generation that will have an easier time of being the best mother you can be and also speaking with authority in all counsels of decision making whether that be in the family, in your community, in your church or at the National and International level.  So if you plan to be a mother I challenge you how also do you plan to make your voice heard so that the children will be safe and if you can’t answer the second question that you should before you have your children."

You can find this at youtube.  The title is Power: Last Lecture by Valerie Hudson

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Guest LiterateParakeet
17 hours ago, LePeel said:

I'm skeptical of the need to even call ourselves "feminist." We're radically free, and our gender roles are unalterably defined. Expand within these parameters, not within "feminism." Feminism is about as necessary to understanding women's roles as Nicaea is to understanding the Godhead.

I respectfully disagree.  If you don't feel the need to call yourself Feminist, that's fine with me, but I love being a maternal Feminist.  The main difficulty I have in discussing feminism is that it has come to mean so many different things to different people that it's hard to know if we are truly talking about the same thing.  When I try to think about what Feminism means for me, I find it difficult to narrow down to a few sentences.  I think of Latter Day Saint Feminists that I truly admire, and articles (usually by those women, but not always) that have helped shape my way of thinking.  Some of these women are Valerie Hudson Cassler PhD, Claudia Bushman PhD, and Wendy Ulrich PhD.  

In order to describe (if only for myself, LOL) what Feminism means to me...here are a couple quotes from Feminist I admire.

"I am a feminist myself, and I doubt that many people would disagree with my definition of feminism, that the talents of women should be developed for the benefit of their communities, their church, their families and themselves."  Claudia Bushman  https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2006/the-lives-of-mormon-women

Valerie Hudson Cassler wrote an article called I am a Mormon Because I'm a Feminist.  At the end she said, "I remain a steadfast member of the Mormon Church because, for the first time in my life, I understand why it is not a curse to be born a woman, and how it can be said with a straight face that men and women stand before God and before each other as true equals. I understand now that women are that they might have joy (2 Ne 2:25). And, odd as it may sound to some, I believe that one of the most profoundly feminist acts one can commit is to share the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ with others. The Restored Gospel not only restores right relations between man and God, but right relations between men and women, making it the strongest, most progressive force for women in the world today."   https://www.fairmormon.org/testimonies/scholars/valerie-hudson-cassler

My missionary daughter was a Feminist before me.  I was on the fence, somehow not quite sure if it was "acceptable" to ba a Latter Day Saint and a Feminist....and then in a class on Feminist Family theory (at BYUI) I was introduced to this article: Feminism in the Light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ  https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/feminism-light-gospel-jesus-christ    I've happily proclaimed myself a Feminist ever since. 

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Hmmm after reading this it seems the Quote "Well behaved Women don't make history..."  needs a Collaterally  "Poor behaved Women don't really make history either... unless they have the support of a lot of Well behaved Women"

(I used women because that was the quote... but I believe it applies to men as well)

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Hey, I'm just happy to hear the quote's creator is advocating humility, and folks have picked through all the stuff she said about that to find an out-of-context quote that means the opposite.

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On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 7:10 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

The main difficulty I have in discussing feminism is that it has come to mean so many different things to different people that it's hard to know if we are truly talking about the same thing. 

Same here.  A few years ago I was talking with someone and she laughed out loud when I commented that my wife joined a feminist group with a pro-life focus.  This person thought it was hilarious that someone could be pro-life AND consider herself a feminist at the same time.  Essentially playing gatekeeper.  If you don't pass this ideological test, you won't be taken seriously.

That's intensely annoying.

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On 5/11/2019 at 11:07 AM, LePeel said:

I'm skeptical of the need to even call ourselves "feminist." We're radically free, and our gender roles are unalterably defined. Expand within these parameters, not within "feminism." Feminism is about as necessary to understanding women's roles as Nicaea is to understanding the Godhead.

This is well stated.

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Guest Mores
On 5/12/2019 at 6:10 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

I respectfully disagree.  If you don't feel the need to call yourself Feminist, that's fine with me, but I love being a maternal Feminist.  The main difficulty I have in discussing feminism is that it has come to mean so many different things to different people that it's hard to know if we are truly talking about the same thing.  When I try to think about what Feminism means for me, I find it difficult to narrow down to a few sentences.  I think of Latter Day Saint Feminists that I truly admire, and articles (usually by those women, but not always) that have helped shape my way of thinking.  Some of these women are Valerie Hudson Cassler PhD, Claudia Bushman PhD, and Wendy Ulrich PhD.  

Instead of trying to define what the label means, I'd ask -- What is the need for such a label?

Doesn't ANY good person want men and women to be considered equals?
Doesn't ANY good person want women to be respected rather than be seen as objects?
Doesn't ANY good person want input from any intelligent, educated, rational & thoughtful person regardless of sex?
Doesn't ANY sensible and successful manager want to hire the best and most qualified for the position regardless of sex?

Why do I have to give myself the label of feminist to agree with any of this?  I just consider that "being a good and reasonable person".
Why do you feel the need to give yourself that label?

Additionally, do you see any large organizations that self-identify as feminists who abide by your definition of "feminist"?  Not individuals, but organizations that are actively making a change in society.  And what is that definition?  (I don't think it was quite clear from your post). 

-- For background, I did read an article by Sis Cassler once.  I had no idea why she called herself a feminist.  And she gave no definitions or descriptions.  I merely thought her actual points to be perfectly in line with what I believed.  I don't see why she needed the label of "feminist" to have people listen to her.  I have heard the other two names, but I'm uncertain whether I've read anything from them.

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Guest Mores
7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So you can virtue signal, of course.

Quite honestly, I had never looked at it from that perspective.  But it does make a lot of sense.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

@Mores why do humans give ourselves any label? Mother, artist, writer, student, teacher...I could go on and on....perhaps your answer about Feminism lies there. 

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Guest Mores
17 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@Mores why do humans give ourselves any label? Mother, artist, writer, student, teacher...I could go on and on....perhaps your answer about Feminism lies there. 

  • Mother has a clear definition.  Culturally, it has a very commonly recognized connotation.
  • Artist has a clear definition.  Culturally, it has a very commonly recognized connotation.
  • Student has a clear definition.  I don't really know if there is any connotation with that.
  • Teacher has several clear definitions.  Each of them are often clarified in conversation very quickly.

Feminism (according to you) has no clear definition.  Culturally, it has a very commonly recognized connotation that you don't share.  With such disparity, how is it of any value to use that label when it obviously doesn't even convey any real meaning to anyone without significant explanation?  What value is a word without definition?

Edited by Mores
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It pains me to say this (because it means I'm getting old), but for most of my life, the answers to Mores' questions were hotly debated by folks.  And plenty of the LDS were not on today's obviously-settled side.  It wasn't until the last 20 years that we finally came to a general consensus on these matters. 

 

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Guest Mores
11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It pains me to say this (because it means I'm getting old), but for most of my life, the answers to Mores' questions were hotly debated by folks.  And plenty of the LDS were not on today's obviously-settled side.  It wasn't until the last 20 years that we finally came to a general consensus on these matters. 

Well, I'm older than you are and I don't know what you're talking about. 

Example:
I know that there were many and still are many men who simply look at women as sexual objects.  I've never known any of them to be considered "good men".

 

But let's say we forget about all that.  If the matter has been settled for 20 years (according to you) where is the need for the feminist movement?

Edited by Mores
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Oh, these days, Anatess' answer is totally valid.  I'm sure it covers a portion of invested folks.  But I don't think the desire to virtue signal drives folks like Literate Parakeet. 

If I were to think of a valid reason for some folks, it would be akin to crotchety old guys wearing their Marines hat.  Nostalgia, sense of pride and accomplishment, a desire to never forget what we fought for/what it cost/how easy it is to lose, that sort of thing.   I mean, we won WWII, the whole world agreed - why do we still need to argue about Nazis?  Because "good men" can forget the lessons of the past.

Anyway, that's one charitable reason I can think of. 

 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
23 minutes ago, Mores said:
  • Mother has a clear definition.  Culturally, it has a very commonly recognized connotation.
  • Artist has a clear definition.  Culturally, it has a very commonly recognized connotation.
  • Student has a clear definition.  I don't really know if there is any connotation with that.
  • Teacher has several clear definitions.  Each of them are often clarified in conversation very quickly.

Feminism (according to you) has no clear definition.  Culturally, it has a very commonly recognized connotation that you don't share.  With such disparity, how is it of any value to use that label when it obviously doesn't even convey any real meaning to anyone without significant explanation?  What value is a word without definition?

Well, for whatever its worth, I disagree that any of those things are as clearly defined as you suppose. For example, Sheri Dew says all women can be mothers whether they have children or not. There are others who would disagree. 

Artist...is an artist someone who gets paid for their art, or someone who creates art. If the latter is there any frequency required? What if I talk about art but never actually make any.

Student...is a student someone enrolled in school, or does a lifelong learner qualify as well.  

If I call myself a teacher will you assume that is my job or calling at church? What if it is "simply" a passion? 

Don't even get me started about the different definitions of forgiveness....

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20 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Artist...is an artist someone who gets paid for their art, or someone who creates art. If the latter is there any frequency required? What if I talk about art but never actually make any.

 

There is only one definition of artist - it's clearly spelled out in Squidward's book!

 

SquidwardTheRulesOfArt.jpg

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Guest Mores
19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Well, for whatever its worth, I disagree that any of those things are as clearly defined as you suppose. For example, Sheri Dew says all women can be mothers whether they have children or not. There are others who would disagree. 

She's either being figurative or delusional.  Take your pick.

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Artist...is an artist someone who gets paid for their art, or someone who creates art. If the latter is there any frequency required? What if I talk about art but never actually make any.

Then you're not an artist.

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Student...is a student someone enrolled in school, or does a lifelong learner qualify as well.  

Yes.  And?  Where is the confusion.

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

If I call myself a teacher will you assume that is my job or calling at church? What if it is "simply" a passion? 

As I said, there are a few commonly accepted definitions.  And they are easily definable since most people are aware of the differing definitions in different contexts.

19 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Don't even get me started about the different definitions of forgiveness....

And forgiveness has clear definitions for various contexts.  And most educated people are aware of them.  

You're conflating two ideas.  Many words in any language have multiple definitions that are commonly used.  You're talking about a word that even educated people cannot agree on definitions for.  Not only that.  But you have to recognize that your meaning (whatever it is, you still haven't answered my question about that) is obviously not one that is commonly used or even recognized.  It seems as forced as being a transexual.

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@Mores why do humans give ourselves any label? Mother, artist, writer, student, teacher...I could go on and on....perhaps your answer about Feminism lies there. 

Actually, that's not quite the case.  Because, if Feminists were simply labeling themselves according to the Descriptor (e.g. a Mother is someone who is nurturing the child, an artist is someone who creates art, a write is someone who writes, etc.) you wouldn't have the situation where only a few identify as Feminists while a majority believes in equality of the sexes.

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