"Well Behaved Women . . . "


Guest LiterateParakeet
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Guest MormonGator
Just now, unixknight said:

But but...  I liked 'Of Wolf and Man...'

Young man, we need to have a talk when you get back from school. I am increasingly disturbed by your behavior 

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What does it mean to be meek or well behaved?    Mostly I agree with what I think many are trying to say but I would like to bring to the forum a story from the New Testament and the Gospel of John - chapter 7.  This story concerns Jesus on his first journey to Jerusalem as a Master, Rabbi or Teacher among the Jews.  There was a week long festival going on called the "feast of tabernacles"  At the end of this week water is gathered and brought to the temple and used to cleanse and purify the temple alters - it is symbolic of the importance of water to life and specifically to the need of water to Jerusalem.  This is the most sacred time of the festival - it was also this same festival that king David was criticized for dancing.  

So at this moment of sacred devotion to G-d Jesus did something quite interesting - starting in verses 37 & 38:

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37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

I assume that in order to be heard that Jesus spoke very loudly.   I am not sure that his behavior would be considered "well behaved".  Look at verse 46 where those reporting to the officers of the temple said that "Never man spake like this man."  I believe they could have said that no one has ever done anything or behaved like this at the feast of tabernacles.   The Parassees thought that this behavior was contrary to law (see verse 49).  They did not think Jesus was well behaved at the festival.  

I think there is another consideration.  When we represent someone else (as Jesus was sent by the Father) we have a different obligation that should reflect in our behavior that if we represent ourselves.  I agree that when we act for ourselves we ought to be "well behaved" but when we act officially for someone else we have a obligation to act for them and in their behalf.  Within the religious community - I often wonder who is representing their own ideas and who is and official representative of G-d.  And for the record if anyone has question as to who I am representing in this post - it is my opinion and understanding of part of John chapter 7.

 

The Traveler

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  • 6 months later...
On 5/11/2019 at 9:15 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

There is a group called Big Ocean Women that I follow on FB.  They promote a branch of feminism called "maternal feminism".   They shared this cartoon blog post about a quote you might have heard "Well behaved women seldom make history."  It doesn't mean what you think it means...or what I thought it meant either!  It's a cool blog post....

Delightful! I'm so grateful to have come across your OP.  I can relate. Thank you! 🙏

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On 5/11/2019 at 4:15 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

There is a group called Big Ocean Women that I follow on FB.  They promote a branch of feminism called "maternal feminism".   They shared this cartoon blog post about a quote you might have heard "Well behaved women seldom make history."  It doesn't mean what you think it means...or what I thought it meant either!  It's a cool blog post....

http://www.everythingisgoingtobeokcomic.com/well-behaved-women/?fbclid=IwAR2Bt17k8rIdh_fLjRDzIadhyHPFfcCM6HunE4MhORi1lmhNCuWkG7Nw_lE

It reminds me of this quote from C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce.. The protagonist (a fictionalized Lewis) has a dream of arriving in Heaven, where he meets his literary hero George Macdonald. While they are talking, a lady approaches them:

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I cannot now remember whether she was naked or clothed. If she were naked, then it must have been the almost visible penumbra of her courtesy and joy which produces in my memory the illusion of a great and shining train that followed her across the happy grass. If she were clothed, then the illusion of nakedness is doubtless due to the clarity with which her inmost spirit shone through the clothes. For clothes in that country are not a disguise: the spiritual body lives along each thread and turns them into living organs. A robe or a crown is there as much one of the wearer's features as a lip or an eye. But I have forgotten. And only partly do I remember the unbearable beauty of her face.

"Is it? ... is it?" I whispered to my guide.

"Not at all," said he. "It's someone ye'll never have heard of. Her name on earth was Sarah Smith and she lived at Golders Green."

"She seems to be ... well, a person of particular importance?"

"Aye. She is one of the great ones. Ye have heard that fame in this country and fame on Earth are two quite different things." 

 We learn as the story goes on that Sarah Smith was a very ordinary housewife who was kind to everyone. Every boy felt like a son to her, and every girl a daughter. In our world she was a nobody, but in Heaven she is one of the "great ones".

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/11/2019 at 11:15 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

There is a group called Big Ocean Women that I follow on FB.  They promote a branch of feminism called "maternal feminism".   They shared this cartoon blog post about a quote you might have heard "Well behaved women seldom make history."  It doesn't mean what you think it means...or what I thought it meant either!  It's a cool blog post....

http://www.everythingisgoingtobeokcomic.com/well-behaved-women/?fbclid=IwAR2Bt17k8rIdh_fLjRDzIadhyHPFfcCM6HunE4MhORi1lmhNCuWkG7Nw_lE

I'm a woman and I wish women were sweet and could drop feminism and didn't have to worry about being out there. 

Edited by e v e
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Guest LiterateParakeet
18 hours ago, e v e said:

I'm a woman and I wish women were sweet and could drop feminism and didn't have to worry about being out there. 

Eve, why do you assume that Feminism means that a woman can't be "sweet" IF she chooses to be?  Or that feminism means a woman has to be "out there."   Did you look at the link I shared even briefly.   Feminism means different things to different people just as being Christian means different things to different people.  

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Eve, why do you assume that Feminism means that a woman can't be "sweet" IF she chooses to be?  Or that feminism means a woman has to be "out there."   Did you look at the link I shared even briefly.   Feminism means different things to different people just as being Christian means different things to different people.  

Right.

it might shock people but someone can hold feminist viewpoints and still be ::gasp:: a nice and pleasant person. The people who buy the stereotype of nasty, mean feminists just show how little they interact with real, actual feminists. It's as bad as stereotyping races, religions, etc. 

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, LiterateParakeet said:

Oh!  I never thought about it that way, but yes, absolutely! 

We put people in boxes when we don't understand them, because we understand the boxes that we create. The truth is that people are far more complicated than stereotypes. 

Are there grouchy, unpleasant feminists? You bet. There are also grouchy, unpleasant, abrasive Latter Day Saints too.

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

The people who buy the stereotype of nasty, mean feminists just show how little they interact with real, actual feminists.

I interact with real, actual feminists all the time. And many of them are simply nasty people who hate men and think families are a form of bondage. So don't lecture me on how little I know. Sure I'm ignorant, but I know what I know, and your insistence that I don't actually know what I know doesn't change my mind.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I know plenty of Feminists who are not mean and nasty, nor do they hate men. Some I know personally and others are more public figures that I would love to meet but haven't had the opportunity.  Latter-day Saint feminists in this latter category are Wendy Ulrich, Claudia Bushman and Valerie Hudson.

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Guest MormonGator
3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I know plenty of Feminists who are not mean and nasty, nor do they hate men. Some I know personally and others are more public figures that I would love to meet but haven't had the opportunity.  Latter-day Saint feminists in this latter category are Wendy Ulrich, Claudia Bushman and Valerie Hudson.

Yup. If you stereotype feminists you lose the right to complain when people stereotype LDS. Conservatives. White people.  Or anything else that you are. After all, if it's okay for you to stereotype people, it's okay for them to do so as well. 

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. If you stereotype feminists you lose the right to complain when people stereotype LDS. Conservatives. White people.  Or anything else that you are. After all, if it's okay for you to stereotype people, it's okay for them to do so as well. 

False.  I don't forfeit the right to correct mischaracterizations at all.

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  • GM: The people who buy into the stereotype of dogs who bite just show how little they interact with real, actual dogs.
  • Trov: I interact with real, actual dogs all the time. Many of them bite, as I know by personal experience.
  • PL: Well, I know PLENTY of dogs who don't bite, both personally and public figures. Lassie, Fifi, and Rover are examples.

SMH.

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3 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Eve, why do you assume that Feminism means that a woman can't be "sweet" IF she chooses to be?  Or that feminism means a woman has to be "out there."   Did you look at the link I shared even briefly.   Feminism means different things to different people just as being Christian means different things to different people.  

i don’t believe being sweet is a what one does but what one is, how one is, in their nature ot not. Feminism, to me, represents a modern ism that’s not in scripture. I know that’s not popular or modern to say. What i like more is the ancient view of woman as a most valued protected treasure of her Lord (her husband). Modern points of view have devalued what the feminine is... which is the life and core of her husband... without whom he couldn’t act... being empty. I’m not saying women should ever be slaves, or subservient in the negative sense of abuse. But if both are listening to God that won’t happen and each can be a perfect complement to the other, as truly one. There are many  brave women in scripture and they are intrinsic to God’s realm and priceless to Him. But feminism is not a good model for me. Male and female are not a higher and lower and that’s not what i’m suggesting. Without his girl a man would be lost and vice versa, yet today in the age of feminism, a couple may live together yet be alone. This is a very serious subject because when He and she made us in their (“our”) image elohim, as genesis states...that is literal... that feminine has the qualities of her, His wife and that’s a most incredible honorful thing... to be in the nature of deity, which is what he wants for us in heaven... we aren’t just creatures or animals but we are belonging to Gods family. It’s just much better than feminism, which secular philosophies dreamed up... anyway that’s my own view though it may seem very outlier, which im aware of. But ponder the gift of being the glory of male. That’s more incredible than equal right (as a human concept very much substandard to glory, imo.)

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Right.

it might shock people but someone can hold feminist viewpoints and still be ::gasp:: a nice and pleasant person. The people who buy the stereotype of nasty, mean feminists just show how little they interact with real, actual feminists. It's as bad as stereotyping races, religions, etc. 

i never assume a woman claiming to be feminist would be mean or nasty. i just find the concept foreign to me personally and a bit less than exciting description of how the feminine is. Some are and some are not. :)

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Right.

it might shock people but someone can hold feminist viewpoints and still be ::gasp:: a nice and pleasant person. The people who buy the stereotype of nasty, mean feminists just show how little they interact with real, actual feminists. It's as bad as stereotyping races, religions, etc. 

Being nice and pleasant isn't the same as being Christ-like or supporting the Church and Prophet.  .   I know many nice and pleasant people that I respect very much who ignore their covenants, drink alcohol and coffee, don't tithe or take Sacrament, don't wear their garments, etc.  The bar isn't "nice and pleasant".  

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You guys are never going to see eye-to-eye if you're not going to acknowledge that FEMINISM is a word that is politicized.  So, you can be using the word in the exact same sentence and mean totally different things depending on what you're referring to as Feminism.

Here are different feminists and they are fighting against each other:

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Guest MormonGator
34 minutes ago, e v e said:

never assume a woman claiming to be feminist would be mean or nasty.

Wise words @e v e, and I totally agree with you. Assuming someone is a certain way just because of their beliefs shows very poorly on the one making the assumption. Sadly, there are many people in the world who still do it. 

Edited by MormonGator
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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

People can act sweet, whether it's in their nature or not.  Right?

I would imagine one can act a certain way and yet not feel it? not so much.  acting sweet is not the same for me. Could not something can be made to look sweet yet have a rotten core. In a same way that someone could be attractive yet be souless and uncaring. I meant sweet as the nature of being completely open to God and to the love one, in this case the spouse,  in every fiber of one's being. The same I've said of feminine applies to males too, though each has different attributes.

Edited by e v e
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