"Well Behaved Women . . . "


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Guest LiterateParakeet
44 minutes ago, Mores said:

You're conflating two ideas.  Many words in any language have multiple definitions that are commonly used.  You're talking about a word that even educated people cannot agree on definitions for.  Not only that.  But you have to recognize that your meaning (whatever it is, you still haven't answered my question about that) is obviously not one that is commonly used or even recognized.  It seems as forced as being a transexual.

I think we use labels to define ourselves, like a shorthand if you will about who we are.  For example, i grew up with Red Necks (they are proud of this title)...I am NOT a Red Neck.  Forgiveness...if you ask 10 different people, it is possible you will get 10 different answers....as you said depending on various contexts.  I believe Feminism is the same...different people have different definitions based on various contexts.  

As to my definition, see my post above to The Folk Prophet. I share my meaning with several Latter-Day Saint women that I admire and mentioned in that post.  There's a video on FairMormon with a panel of these ladies and a couple others I'm not as familiar with, where they talk about what feminism means to them. It's not something that can be defined in a few words, because I know those women call themselves Feminists, that tells me something about them.  Instantly, I know there are some understandings and common ground that I will have with them that I won't have with you and Anatess (for example.)  That's good enough for me.  

I posted the article that started this thread because it is about common ground for some of us.  It's the closest we're going to get to agreeing on this topic.  I am a mother, an artist, a writer, a student, a teacher, a Latter-Day, Saint, a teacher, a Christian and a feminist.   All these roles have meaning to me and bring joy to my life.  

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Guest LiterateParakeet
44 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Actually, that's not quite the case.  Because, if Feminists were simply labeling themselves according to the Descriptor (e.g. a Mother is someone who is nurturing the child, an artist is someone who creates art, a write is someone who writes, etc.) you wouldn't have the situation where only a few identify as Feminists while a majority believes in equality of the sexes.

No there is a difference.  I think you don't see it because you're not a feminist. If I know that a Latter-Day Saint woman is a feminist; I have a pretty good idea about some common ground we will share.  Outside of the church the definition splits wide open to more confusion, but within the church Latter-Day Saint Feminist, to me is a friendship waiting to happen because of commonalities and thoughts and ideals I know we will share.  

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39 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

No there is a difference.  I think you don't see it because you're not a feminist. If I know that a Latter-Day Saint woman is a feminist; I have a pretty good idea about some common ground we will share.  Outside of the church the definition splits wide open to more confusion, but within the church Latter-Day Saint Feminist, to me is a friendship waiting to happen because of commonalities and thoughts and ideals I know we will share.  

See that bolded statement there?

Saying that I'm not a feminist just proves my point that you are not using Feminist as a descriptor like Mother.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See that bolded statement there?

Saying that I'm not a feminist just proves my point that you are not using Feminist as a descriptor like Mother.

I agree that not every woman is a feminist. Would you call yourself a feminist or was I mistaken? 

My point about motherhood was simply that people can have different definitions of mothers.  

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20 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree that not every woman is a feminist. Would you call yourself a feminist or was I mistaken? 

My point about motherhood was simply that people can have different definitions of mothers.  

Sure, not every woman is a feminist.  But from our interactions on this thread you should know me enough to know if I fit in this description:

fem·i·nist
/ˈfemənəst/
noun
 
  1. 1.
    a person who supports feminism.
fem·i·nism
/ˈfeməˌnizəm/
noun
 
  1. the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.

 

So, yes, I posit that the Modern Feminist Movement who has taken Betty Friedan's concepts into its modern form ARE NOT FEMINISTS as they rail against the Patriarchy and silly things such as equality of outcomes and whatever else Captain Marvel signifies that posits Masculinity as Toxic and Femininity as "The Future".  Unfortunately, today's society do not think of "LDS Feminists" as Feminists or even any Women's-March-attending Pro-Life organization.  Rather, they think of NOW and Pussy-hat-wearing-movements and college-pulluting-Gender-Studies-activists as Feminists in the same manner that the Antifa Movement is NOT Anti Fascist.  I do not want to be put in the same section of discussion as those non-feminists labeling themselves as Feminists.  

I do not need to use that poisoned label to be an advocate for women's rights on the basis of the equality of sexes - a true feminist.  My actions define me in the same manner that my actions define my claim to Motherhood and my lack of artistic creativity define me as a non-artist.  For you to not recognize my advocacy for equality of the sexes, is not a reflection of my actions on the matter.

 

 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I do not want to be put in the same section of discussion as those people.  

First, of all we're not talking about THOSE kinds of feminists. I used the article in the beginning of this thread to establish a foundation for this discussion, at least. 

Second, since your comment about "virtual signaling" I understood you did not want to be considered ANY kind of feminist. And yet you object to me saying you're not a feminist. 

Finally, I don't care what Radical Feminists think about my brand of Feminism any more than I lose sleep over Born Again Christians saying I-as a Latter-day Saint- am not Christian. My definition is what matters to me.

By the way, I went to the Women's March with a fellow Latter-day Saint Feminist and had a wonderful time. No, I didn't wear an offensive hat, but I really enjoyed being there. 

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3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

First, of all we're not talking about THOSE kinds of feminists. I used the article in the beginning of this thread to establish a foundation for this discussion, at least. 

Second, since your comment about "virtual signaling" I understood you did not want to be considered ANY kind of feminist. And yet you object to me saying you're not a feminist. 

Finally, I don't care what Radical Feminists think about my brand of Feminism any more than I lose sleep over Born Again Christians saying I-as a Latter-day Saint- am not Christian. My definition is what matters to me.

By the way, I went to the Women's March with a fellow Latter-day Saint Feminist and had a wonderful time. No, I didn't wear an offensive hat, but I really enjoyed being there. 

On one breath you say you're not talking about THOSE kinds of feminist and on the next breath you say I'm not a feminist.  Your attendance in the Women's March doesn't make you a Feminist.  Pro-Lifers were in the March and they are not considered Feminists because they "Deprive Women of their Right to their Bodies".  So yes, I don't use the label because it has been usurped by THOSE Feminists.  But I would think that YOU would recognize my advocacy for what it is.

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12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

So, yes, I posit that the Modern Feminist Movement who has taken Betty Friedan's concepts into its modern form ARE NOT FEMINISTS as they rail against the Patriarchy and silly things such as equality of outcomes and whatever else Captain Marvel signifies that posits Masculinity as Toxic and Femininity as "The Future".  Unfortunately, today's society do not think of "LDS Feminists" as Feminists or even any Women's-March-attending Pro-Life organization.  Rather, they think of NOW and hat-wearing-movements and college-pulluting-Gender-Studies-activists as Feminists in the same manner that the Antifa Movement is NOT Anti Fascist.  I do not want to be put in the same section of discussion as those non-feminists labeling themselves as Feminists.  

I do not need to use that poisoned label to be an advocate for women's rights on the basis of the equality of sexes - a true feminist. 

 

1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

First, of all we're not talking about THOSE kinds of feminists. I used the article in the beginning of this thread to establish a foundation for this discussion, at least. 

Second, since your comment about "virtual signaling" I understood you did not want to be considered ANY kind of feminist. And yet you object to me saying you're not a feminist. 

Finally, I don't care what Radical Feminists think about my brand of Feminism any more than I lose sleep over Born Again Christians saying I-as a Latter-day Saint- am not Christian. My definition is what matters to me.

By the way, I went to the Women's March with a fellow Latter-day Saint Feminist and had a wonderful time. No, I didn't wear an offensive hat, but I really enjoyed being there. 

I think the problem, when it comes to discussing feminism in general, is that it would be super convenient if there were a fixed list of types of feminism and each person could be conveniently categorized into the appropriate type and discuss from there.

Everybody has their own idea of what it means to be a feminist.  We try to differentiate the reasonable (and appropriate) view that says that men and women are equals from the more recent, more aggressive type that seems to be looking for inequality to justify its own anger.  In some things, there really is a spectrum and we have to cut each other some slack.

Don't be like the person I talked about earlier, who took it upon herself to judge who can call themselves a feminist and who doesn't.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
34 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
  1.  

^Disregard the box....this was from earlier....tech issues. 

Okay, @unixknight is right, we should let each person decide for themselves whether they are feminist or not and how they define it.  So I apologize for saying you are not a feminist. I'll try to be more clear. When a Latter-day Saint woman (or man) uses this title to describe themselves, I see commonalities that we likely share. Someone I want to get to know better.  Which to me is one of the reasons for labeling. Because you said this labeling as feminist is a virtual signal, I have a feeling that we would disagree on other related issues that are important to me.  That doesn't mean we can't be friends...I don't require all my friends to think likely me, but my comfort level would be less. I hope that clarifies. 

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21 minutes ago, unixknight said:

 

I think the problem, when it comes to discussing feminism in general, is that it would be super convenient if there were a fixed list of types of feminism and each person could be conveniently categorized into the appropriate type and discuss from there.

Everybody has their own idea of what it means to be a feminist.  We try to differentiate the reasonable (and appropriate) view that says that men and women are equals from the more recent, more aggressive type that seems to be looking for inequality to justify its own anger.  In some things, there really is a spectrum and we have to cut each other some slack.

Don't be like the person I talked about earlier, who took it upon herself to judge who can call themselves a feminist and who doesn't.

@unixknight, this is an over-simplification of the REAL DAMAGES that the Modern Feminist Movement has created in our society.  If you're wondering, here are just a few statistics:

1.)  Men are committing suicide at an alarming rate.

2.)  The increase in False Rape statistics against Men are increasing while the statistic that Men are raped more than Women is not publicized as the statistics continue to exclude incarcerated people.  The incarceration rate of males versus females remain staggeringly high.

3.)  The male high school graduation rate as well as the male college enrollment rate are declining.  The male post-graduate entrance and graduation rates are declining even faster.  They have been overtaken by women.

4.) Masculinity is now labeled toxic such that 1 in 5 boys in public school are now taking ADHD medication.  Male Competitiveness and Confidence are also now labeled Toxic causing males to segregate and avoid family life.  The number of males entering marriage is declining.

5.)  Single Males are buying homes at a declining rate.  They have been overtaken by single women.

6.)  Recent scientific studies has shown the feminization of the Male sex, from the loss of musculature, the amount of testosterone, and even to the size of genitalia.  Almost 50% of male applicants to Army training fail the physical test.  Over 70% of American males are overweight or obese.

7.)  And the most damaging in my opinion:  1 in 5 American kids now live only with their mothers.  Fatherlessness is an epidemic as more and more women divorce their husbands, gain sole custody of their children, and remain single mothers.  Men's Rights Activists continue to get ignored by society.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

@unixknight, this is an over-simplification of the REAL DAMAGES that the Modern Feminist Movement has created in our society.  If you're wondering, here are just a few statistics:

You don't have to convince me that there's a toxic and dangerous strain that's causing these problems.  All I'm saying is that, without a clear, universal definition of what being a feminist means, it doesn't make much sense to judge whether or not people can use the term when describing their own views.

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5 minutes ago, unixknight said:

You don't have to convince me that there's a toxic and dangerous strain that's causing these problems.  All I'm saying is that, without a clear, universal definition of what being a feminist means, it doesn't make much sense to judge whether or not people can use the term when describing their own views.

There's a very clear and universal definition of what a feminist is.  I have posted it above.

The issue is that MISANDRISTS have usurped the definition.  Until such time that these Misandrists lose their place in influential society or start using the label most befitting their advocacy, the term Feminist will forever be poisoned in socio-political discussions... because, as the OP has shown, well-behaved women don't get much notice.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

There's a very clear and universal definition of what a feminist is.  I have posted it above.

The issue is that MISANDRISTS have usurped the definition.  Until such time that these Misandrists lose their place in influential society or start using the label most befitting their advocacy, the term Feminist will forever be poisoned in socio-political discussions.

I see you're in a fighting mood today.  😉

That definition is inadequate.  There are some who believe that part of the goal of equality includes abortion rights.  Some don't.  The definition you provided offers no clarity on that.  Some believe in the gender wage gap.  Others don't.  Some would be fine with women having to register with the Selective Service.  Some don't.  

See what I mean?  People use those issues as a pass/fail for whether or not they'll "allow" someone to call themselves a feminist.

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10 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

^Disregard the box....this was from earlier....tech issues. 

Okay, @unixknight is right, we should let each person decide for themselves whether they are feminist or not and how they define it.  So I apologize for saying you are not a feminist. I'll try to be more clear. When a Latter-day Saint woman (or man) uses this title to describe themselves, I see commonalities that we likely share. Someone I want to get to know better.  Which to me is one of the reasons for labeling. Because you said this labeling as feminist is a virtual signal, I have a feeling that we would disagree on other related issues that are important to me.  That doesn't mean we can't be friends...I don't require all my friends to think likely me, but my comfort level would be less. I hope that clarifies. 

There are many, many, many feminists that avoid the label to prevent themselves from being included in the Toxic Feminist movement.  I do not label myself because there is no need for it.  My actions speak for themselves.  From the statistics, most REAL feminists do not label themselves either.  The Misandrist calling themselves Feminists (both males and females) love to use the Feminist label to virtue signal.  

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3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I see you're in a fighting mood today.  😉

That definition is inadequate.  There are some who believe that part of the goal of equality includes abortion rights.  Some don't.  The definition you provided offers no clarity on that.  Some believe in the gender wage gap.  Others don't.  Some would be fine with women having to register with the Selective Service.  Some don't.  

See what I mean?  People use those issues as a pass/fail for whether or not they'll "allow" someone to call themselves a feminist.

It is VERY CLEAR.  The abortion issue is not a Feminist issue.  It is a PERSONHOOD issue.  That is - "I have the Right to my own Body" versus "I have a Right to life".  The Right to Life is not a Feminist Issue - boy or girl, that person has that Right.

Gender Wage Gap is a Misandrist issue, not a Feminist issue.  The Gender Wage Gap is based on the concept that Males make more than Females because of an oppressive Patriarchy.

Selective Service/Draft is also a Misandrist issue, not a Feminist issue.  Captain Marvel exemplifies this - the idea that the Military discriminates against Women because of Misogyny rather than Practical Chivalry.

Misandrists use those issues as a pass/fail for whether or not they'll "allow" someone to call themselves a Feminist.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

It is VERY CLEAR.  The abortion issue is not a Feminist issue.  It is a PERSONHOOD issue.  That is - "I have the Right to my own Body" versus "I have a Right to life".  The Right to Life is not a Feminist Issue - boy or girl, that person has that Right.

Gender Wage Gap is a Misandrist issue, not a Feminist issue.  The Gender Wage Gap is based on the concept that Males make more than Females because of an oppressive Patriarchy.

Selective Service/Draft is also a Misandrist issue, not a Feminist issue.  Captain Marvel exemplifies this - the idea that the Military discriminates against Women because of Misogyny rather than Practical Chivalry.

Misandrists use those issues as a pass/fail for whether or not they'll "allow" someone to call themselves a Feminist.

..in your opinion.

And yep, Misandrists are into gatekeeping too.

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9 minutes ago, unixknight said:

..in your opinion.

And yep, Misandrists are into gatekeeping too.

In MY opinion?  That's how you're going to minimize my points?  You think Personhood is MY opinion?  You think Gender Wage Gap is MY opinion?  

Now find any Misandrists movements labeling themselves as one.  Then find Misandrists movements labeling themselves as Feminists.  I can give you all the buzz words if you like... how about Rape Culture.  Toxic Masculinity.  Patriarchy.  Etc. etc., are they tied to the Misandry label or the Feminist label?  How many movies have been made show-casing these topics?  How many commercials?  I just posted one by some German grocery store.  Are they labeled Misandrist or Feminist?

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Guest Mores
2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Over my head.

The term "gatekeeping" refers to someone saying that others don't belong in this category because they don't pass a specific litmus test.  

When you referred to "REAL feminists" you were gatekeeping.

I really wish there were a REAL way to define this term.  I really wish that there were at least one definition that a significant percentage of people agreed upon.  I would even be happy if there were a few definitions that everyone was aware of and agreed to the differences as far as "different flavors" of feminism.  But no.  Everyone has their own definition and will not accept alternate definitions.  Or alternatively, they're so open to a myriad of definitions that it becomes a meaningless term.  That's why it is useless to have such a discussion.

The way I see it is that there was a definition of feminism from decades ago that meant something.  And it was a reasonable movement at the time.  But over time, the movement changed.  We now call it third wave feminism or fourth wave or whatever.  But that is who people think about when they hear the word.  That is the image, the concept, the attitude that immediately pops in my head and most people's heads when they hear "feminist". They think Brie Larson. But people want to cling to the label even though they partially or completely eschew the modern feminist dogma.

Did you know that "private schools" used to mean what we call "public schools" now?  And vice versa.  The language changed.  The original meanings are gone.  But some people still want to cling to original meanings of words when in common conversation today.  That makes about as much sense as someone insisting that Daylight Savings Time doesn't need to be followed because we got along fine without it for millennia.  He may have a point.  But he will be mis-scheduling an awful lot of stuff for (now) most of the year.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

In MY opinion?

Yes, in your opinion, it is very clear.  I do not share your opinion.  The very fact that you can hardly get any two people to agree on a precise definition of 'feminism' demonstrates that it isn't as clear as you think.

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13 minutes ago, Mores said:

The term "gatekeeping" refers to someone saying that others don't belong in this category because they don't pass a specific litmus test.  

When you referred to "REAL feminists" you were gatekeeping.

Incorrect.  I was separating out the Misandrists from the Feminists.

 

Quote

I really wish there were a REAL way to define this term. 

THERE IS.  I just put forth the definition above.  The important part is the "equality of the sexes" in the definition.  Camille Paglia is one of those people that embody that definition in her feminist movement.  Modern Feminists now label Paglia an alt-Right.

The REAL feminists (as opposed to the Misandrists - which plagues the Feminist Movement from 3rd wave onward) fought for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes.  The Modern Feminists did not just stop at Equality of Outcomes (Selective, of course, because they're only trying to equalize the STEM and Management fields and not the Underwater Welding et. al., fields) but has moved on to full-fledged Misandry with Toxic Masculinity and Oppressive Patriarchy to a complete obliteration of the differences between Sexes in their quest for equality such that there are now loud people denigrating Mother's Day because the holiday merchandise doesn't have options for Mothers with penises.  That's how you got the label TERF that is now applied to the Misandrists-calling-themselves-Feminists who did not jump that particular shark.

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16 hours ago, unixknight said:

Yes, in your opinion, it is very clear.  I do not share your opinion.  The very fact that you can hardly get any two people to agree on a precise definition of 'feminism' demonstrates that it isn't as clear as you think.

So you do not think that Feminism is advocacy for womens rights on the basis of equality of the sexes?

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19 hours ago, Mores said:

She's either being figurative or delusional.  Take your pick.

If I remember Sister Dew's quote, she was being figurative of what it means to a mother. Although she doesn't have children, she can still "mother" other children. In this case, it would be similar to "teacher" in that there is commonly held definitions and easy to see what what is defining as "mother."

Reminds me of a young lady on my mission who found out she would not be able to have any children. At first her heart ached, now she says, "Although I will not have children of mine own I can still be a mother to other people's children." (The idea of teaching primary or caring for nieces and nephews)

In this sense, your idea still holds. Mother is defined and clear what people are speaking to.

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