Please Don’t Ask Me When I’m Having Kids


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I eat pizza and french fries often enough that I'm never all that surprised when someone asks, "When are you having kids?" Like, sorry, guys. It's just a food baby. Again. In all seriousness, though, I have been asked a few times too many when my husband and I are having kids — and even though there's no ill intent behind the question, it does bother me. First of all, it's no one's business besides mine and my husband's, and secondly, what if I couldn't?  It's No One's Business Image via parentclub.ganzworld.com Several years ago — long before I was even thinking about having children — Elder Neil L. Andersen said: When to have a child and how many children to have are private decisions to be made between a husband and wife and the Lord. These are sacred decisions—decisions that should be made with sincere prayer and acted on with great faith. Let me say it louder for the people in the back: this decision is PRIVATE. He didn't say, "The decision to have children...

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Just read the above.  Couldn't make myself read the article.

And this is what @Vort is saying about being isolationists.  Somebody is interested in someone else's life and all one can think of is... "it's none of your business and... what if I couldn't?  And the Proclamation says this is PRIVATE".  Nobody knows anymore how to make conversation.  They're not trying to make your decision for you or trying to get into your business!  They're just making conversation trying to talk about your life!  That's what MINISTERING is.  There's no ill intent on the question... so take it as it is and make conversation.  That's the perfect segue to telling the other person, "you know, we've really been struggling about having children.  There just might be something medically wrong with either one of us..." and you'll find compassion pouring forth in buckets.  Or if you really don't want to talk about it, there are very simple ways to navigate unwanted conversation, "we're just not ready yet and it's a topic that I'm not comfortable talking about..." and you'll find the well-intended person 9 times out of 10 would go "I'm sorry... how about them shoes?".

Are there the busybodies that would nag you about it?  Yes!  These are usually old people or people who just had children of their own.  A lot of old people have lived so long that they have become brutally honest and don't bother with filtering their thoughts before it goes through their tongues.  They're just happy somebody is still willing to listen to what they have to say.  And, of course, people who just had children of their own usually live in a certain myopia of gurgling babies and stinky diapers that for a certain phase in their lives, that's all they can talk about - babies, children, diapers... especially to other women.  And there's Relief Society folks who take the commandment to go forth and multiply very seriously.  So, how you converse with these people is to actually get out of your own self-absorption and see life from their perspective for a while.  This is how you make connections with people.  This is how you make conversation.  This is how you build friendships.  This is how you understand where the other person is coming from so you can learn how to be influential and show the person by your compassion how not to nag.  This is how you MINISTER.

And that's all I have to say about that.  And yes, I did not click on the article.  So this is simply a response to the opening salvo - which is horrible.

 

 

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We addressed the issue over in this thread

Quote

One of the most fun games I ever participated in against my will, was the "why haven't you people gotten pregnant" game.  My answers included:
* "We're waiting to see if we last until next year."
* (vague alluding to male incompetence, daring them to say something about it)
* "We're trying, but they tell me it's harder when you never allow yourself to be within 2 feet of the other."
* "I think I'm gay."

 

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I get that it’s a private matter, and that there can be individualized circumstances warranting a delay in child rearing or even not having children at all.  If the article had stayed there while reiterating the ideal promulgated repeatedly by Church leaders, I’d be copacetic.  

Unfortunately, the article a) doesn’t really engage with LDS theology to reiterate that children are, in fact, desirable (and indeed, the fulfillment of temple blessings and the essence of exaltation); and b) takes quotes meant to console the subjects of extraordinary circumstances (infertility, health problems, etc) and seems to twist them to suggest that voluntary childlessness under ordinary circumstances is an appropriate Plan A given what we know about the Plan of Salvation.

We don’t need to be privy to other people’s family plans; but we can and must encourage each other to do well.  And to have children *is* to do well.  I wonder whether married, physically-and-emotionally fit people who wait for spiritual confirmation before having children, would also wait for spiritual confirmation before paying their monthly tithing, or driving a vanload of MIA Maids up to Girls’ Camp, or helping an old lady to cross a street.  Whatever just happened to doing stuff because we knew, as a general principle, that it was the right thing to do?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 copacetic.  

Is that Latin?  

:D

 

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Unfortunately, the article a) doesn’t really engage with LDS theology to reiterate that children are, in fact, desirable (and indeed, the fulfillment of temple blessings and the essence of exaltation); and b) takes quotes meant to console the subjects of extraordinary circumstances (infertility, health problems, etc) and seems to twist them to suggest that voluntary childlessness under ordinary circumstances is an appropriate Plan A given what we know about the Plan of Salvation.

Ugh.  Good thing I can't bring myself to read the article.  From this comment, it just went downhill from where it started.

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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

copacetic

I love this word. It's hilarious. Apparently, it sprang like Athena, fully formed from the head of Zeus. No traceable etymology. I remember the first time I heard it (or more correctly, the first time I remember hearing it), at work about fifteen years ago, from my manager. at work I didn't know what it meant, and couldn't infer it from context.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

I love this word. It's hilarious. Apparently, it sprang like Athena, fully formed from the head of Zeus. No traceable etymology. I remember the first time I heard it (or more correctly, the first time I remember hearing it), at work about fifteen years ago, from my manager. at work I didn't know what it meant, and couldn't infer it from context.

I love that it’s so similar to, but different from, apoplectic.  

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Back when we were in our active baby-making days, my wife would get seriously irritated at casual Church friends and acquaintances asking us about our reproductive plans. Given this, I have a hard time skewering the author; my wife might have written a similar article. But I no longer agree with the mindset. I think we should actively seek to build such societal intimacy, even at the cost of having to come outside our comfort zone. That doesn't mean that our private lives become an open book or that we must actually answer such intrusive questions, only that we react gracefully to such intrusions, seeing them as a perhaps ham-fisted attempt at building friendship and emotional unity.

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Okay, having read through the article, I do have some pointed (though hopefully not unkind) feedback.

Quote

We have never once had any kind of spiritual prompting that we are supposed to start having children — or any desire to.

Since when do we need a spiritual prompting to have children? From the time that Adam and Eve were given the blessing and commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, pregnancy has been the normal and natural outcome of marriage. Do we pray to get confirmation to go to work, or fix dinner, or rent an apartment? I remember Elder McConkie openly questioning the wisdom of asking God whether one should marry one's romantic interest. In the same vein, why should we ask God whether to have children? Under most circumstances, isn't the answer obvious?

My position might seem extreme and unreasonable. It seems that way only because we have been wrongly conditioned by the wicked world around us. Go back, say, three generations, and who would ever postulate that we should wait to receive specific revelation from God before having children? The very idea would be considered absurd, pretty much for the entirety of human history. Only today do we have the unconscious hubris to seek such a sign from God before doing what he has already commanded us to do.

/rant

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Guest Scott
3 hours ago, Third Hour said:

In all seriousness, though, I have been asked a few times too many when my husband and I are having kids — and even though there's no ill intent behind the question, it does bother me. First of all, it's no one's business besides mine and my husband's, and secondly, what if I couldn't?

My own personal story:

My wife and I didn't have children until almost nine years after we were married. We tried for years, but it didn't work.  We finally decided to adopt through LDS Family Services. At the time, you were only eligibible to adopt through LDS Family Services if you were infertile.  There was a waiting list as well.

Then, partially through the process, my wife got pregnant.  We stopped the adoption process (next step would have been a bishop's interview).  Sadly, a little while longer, my wife lost the baby. 😢   She was very distraught and our neighbor and I gave her a blessing.

Not long after that the bishop called us in for an interview.  We just assumed that he had heard about the miscarriage (perhapsn from the neighbor doing the blessing) and he wanted to provide us with some comfort.

When we showed up for the interview, he asked us which one of us wanted to go first.  I said that I would and went into the bishop's office.   He kind of chastised me for not having children.   He asked us something like "have you guys just decided not to have children?"  and had a bunch of quotes ready from church leaders stressing the importance of having children.  He didn't know that we had been trying for years, had contacted LDS Social Service, were about to request the interview with the bishop for eligibility, but stopped the process once my wife got pregnant.   He didn't know that we had just lost the baby.  

Still, I am so thankful that I said I would interview first.  My wife was already very distraght from losing the baby that we had been waiting for years for and to be chastised by the bishop for not having children (even if it was phrased in the form of a question) would have been heartbreaking for her.😢   I was also shocked by it, but not distraught.   

I'm sure the bishop had good intentions, but I don't think anyone who has had trouble conceiving knows what it's like to be asked by others when they are going to have children, to be chastised for not having children, or to be judged by others for not having children.   Trying to conceive without success, especially over a period of years is painful enough, but beign judged for it, even by people with good intentions just adds to the pain and stress immensely.  

Of note, it is true that there is also adoption for childless couples, but this takes a lot more time than people realize and through LDS Services at least, you have to prove infertility and wait.  

Please don't be judgemental towards couples without children because you never know the reasons behind it.   Asking when they are having children, even if the question had no ill intent can also add to the stress and pain.  Please don't do it.  

Edited by Scott
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Guest MormonGator
3 minutes ago, Scott said:


Please don't be judgemental towards couples without children because you never know the reasons behind it.   Asking when they are having children, even if the question had no ill intent can also add to the stress and pain.  Please don't do it.  

Amen. Perfectly said. It's best to just keep your mouth shut about this issue, unless you and I are extremely close. 

Asking this opens up many doors you just don't want to go down because the topic can be unspeakably painful. 

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12 minutes ago, Scott said:

Please don't be judgemental towards couples without children because you never know the reasons behind it.   Asking when they are having children, even if the question had no ill intent can also add to the stress and pain.  Please don't do it.  

I see a huge difference between being judgmental toward a childless couple and simply asking a couple about their child-bearing plans. I'm not justifying the latter question, but it is not at all the same as the former question. (I mean, maybe sometimes it is, but in general it's a different thing.) Condemning a couple for not having children is the prerogative of God, and perhaps of God's authorized leaders, but certainly not of friends or even family. Asking is not the same as condemning.

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Guest Scott
15 minutes ago, Vort said:

I see a huge difference between being judgmental toward a childless couple and simply asking a couple about their child-bearing plans. 

Yes, there can be a difference, but asking a couple about their child bearing plans is seldom helpful to the couple, even if it is done in a non-judgemental way.  If there is a specific reason (such as medical) that requires the question be asked, it would be helpful in that case.   Otherwise, it just isn't.   

If the couple is having fertility issues, even the act of asking from family and friends (especially repeatedly) can cause a lot of pain. It just isn't a good idea, nor is it helpful in any way. 

(Addition:   To add to my story above, once our bishop did find out what the circumstances were, he apologized profusely, and felt really bad.  He obviously meant no harm).  
 

Edited by Scott
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19 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes, there can be a difference, but asking a couple about their child bearing plans is seldom helpful to the couple, even if it is done in a non-judgemental way.  If there is a specific reason (such as medical) that requires the question be asked, it would be helpful in that case.   Otherwise, it just isn't.   

If the couple is having fertility issues, even the act of asking from family and friends (especially repeatedly) can cause a lot of pain. It just isn't a good idea, nor is it helpful in any way. 

(Addition:   To add to my story above, once our bishop did find out what the circumstances were, he apologized profusely, and felt really bad.  He obviously meant no harm).  
 

This is another example of - we cater to the feelings of the small minority so we can't talk normally to the vast majority.

It's like - you can't help a person whose car is stranded on the side of the road because... "haven't you heard of this one guy who pretended to be stranded on the street so he can murder the person who stops to help???"

I used to be one of those who had trouble conceiving.  This is how I approached it - "It really hurt us, but it's okay, we're not gonna dampen the desire of other people wanting everybody to have babies just because of my misfortune."  Of course, I now have my 2 beautiful boys so I'm actually one of the fortunate ones.

I understand that if one is hurting it is much harder to show compassion - but hey, maybe that's EXACTLY what people who are hurting need.  To get out of their pain once in a while to see the world from the side of those who are not hurting in the exact manner that one is.  Maybe it won't hurt as much when you realize there are a quadzillion people still out there who are still happily excited about their child-bearing future... then maybe one can be happy with those "happy folks" instead of wallowing in one's own misfortune.  Maybe even be envious of other's fortunes.  And maybe, just maybe, you can surface out of the pain enough to realize other people are hurting in their own way too.  And reaching out to people through conversation, stumbling through each other's unique circumstance, going through a cycle of apology and forgiveness, may just be the ticket for being able to talk about anything to do with babies without it hurting anymore. 

But, what do I know... I'm just another random girl on the internet.

 

 

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My in laws wouldn't leave the topic alone.  They went so far to call us pagan worshippers like the Egyptians because we had a cat.

 

Soooo....

 

One night at the family party as we were in the kitchen cleaning up, my MIL was washing and I turned to my SIL who was in the room and said,

"Hey we got the notice from the doctor finally.  I'm sterile."

 

 

Edited by mirkwood
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1 minute ago, mirkwood said:

One night at the family party as we were in the kitchen cleaning up, my MIL was washing and I turned to my SIL who was in the room and said,

"Hey we got the notice from the doctor finally.  I'm sterile."

And your MIL said...?

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Quote

Nobody knows anymore how to make conversation.  They're not trying to make your decision for you or trying to get into your business!  They're just making conversation trying to talk about your life! 

With some people this is true.  With some it is not.  Unfortunately, there are a great many who are not just trying to make conversation.  If you are not close friends or family, you should not be asking.

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This is tough for me. My wife and I were infertile for 6 years, and this question became very old. I tried not to let it bother me, and I think in general I was able to seperate my emotions over our infertility from the innocent questions (fortunately I never had to deal with jerks trying to make me feel bad). But my wife took these questions a lot harder than me. She tried not to, but her inability to conceive sent her spiralling into severe depression and every time someone asked her this it almost always left her in tears. So while I truly don't feel like anyone who asked me had malicious intent, I'm always going to avoid asking this question because I know how much it can hurt, even unintentionally. 

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18 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

This is tough for me. My wife and I were infertile for 6 years, and this question became very old. I tried not to let it bother me, and I think in general I was able to seperate my emotions over our infertility from the innocent questions (fortunately I never had to deal with jerks trying to make me feel bad). But my wife took these questions a lot harder than me. She tried not to, but her inability to conceive sent her spiralling into severe depression and every time someone asked her this it almost always left her in tears. So while I truly don't feel like anyone who asked me had malicious intent, I'm always going to avoid asking this question because I know how much it can hurt, even unintentionally. 

Yep, my wife and I struggled to have children at first. I also once made the mistake of asking that question to someone who had also been trying for years to have a child. I felt terrible, and I will never ask it to anyone again.

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Guest Scott
4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is another example of - we cater to the feelings of the small minority so we can't talk normally to the vast majority.

Not so.  In my opinion at least, it isn't a good idea to ask a couple when they are having children, especially if they have been married for several years.  This is true weather or not they are infertile or fertile.    Asking isn't going to help in either case.

Quote

This is how I approached it - "It really hurt us, but it's okay, we're not gonna dampen the desire of other people wanting everybody to have babies just because of my misfortune." 

If other people desire everybody to have babies, asking a childless couple (regardless of why they are childless) doesn't help anyone.

Quote

I understand that if one is hurting it is much harder to show compassion - but hey, maybe that's EXACTLY what people who are hurting need.  To get out of their pain once in a while to see the world from the side of those who are not hurting in the exact manner that one is.  Maybe it won't hurt as much when you realize there are a quadzillion people still out there who are still happily excited about their child-bearing future... then maybe one can be happy with those "happy folks" instead of wallowing in one's own misfortune.  Maybe even be envious of other's fortunes.  And maybe, just maybe, you can surface out of the pain enough to realize other people are hurting in their own way too.  And reaching out to people through conversation, stumbling through each other's unique circumstance, going through a cycle of apology and forgiveness, may just be the ticket for being able to talk about anything to do with babies without it hurting anymore. 

I disagree.   Asking someone when they are going to have kids isn't useful or compassionate, regardless of how it is done.

If you want to reach out to someone or be compassionate, asking them when they are having kids isn't the way to do it.  The way to do it is to be there for them, let them know you care about them, and support them.  If they know you and trust you, chances are they might let you in on their trials.   Even if they don't tell you a thing it is always comforting to know that someone is your friend and there for you.  Asking someone whent they are having kids isn't going to accomplish this.   There are much better ways to go about this.   This is true even if they are fertile as well.

 

Quote

But, what do I know... I'm just another random girl on the internet.

You may have good intentions, but when it comes to having kids, this is a completely different situation than a lot of others.   This isn't about avoiding conversations or problems for the sake of a few.

If I ask my daughter how her school is going and she says she is having a hard time, I can offer her help and encouragement.   I can say things like, "I can try and help you" or "I believe in you" or "I will do everything I can to encourage you to do your best".

If my coworker comes to me for help with anything (even a personal issue), I can help him or her out the best I can.  If I notice that they are down, I can even ask him or her what is wrong and if there is anything I can do to help.  I can offer help and encouragement.

If I am administering to a family, I can ask be their friend, check up on them, and ask them if there is anything they need my hlep with.  Even if they say no, I can let them know that I am there for them and available to help with anything I can.  

That is different than asking someone "when are you having kids".    What good will that do?   What are you supposed to do, offer to help get them pregnant? Encourage them to try harder?   Even if they don't have kids for other reasons, it still isn't a good idea.

It is much better to be their friend, encourage them, be there for them, etc.  No one is saying that people have to stop talking about babies or children either.   That is completely different than asking someone when they are having kids.      

 

Edited by Scott
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