Please Don’t Ask Me When I’m Having Kids


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Adding my vote to the "NEVER ask this question".

You have no idea what a couple is going through.  Speaking personally, hubby and I have one kid.  We tried more for years, getting no where, then having a miscarriage which nearly took my life-- a very dramatic experience.  And then followed up by a second miscarriage that nearly took my life again, and added even more trauma.  It's a hugely sensitive topic. 

NEVER ask "when are you going to have kids".  

 

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6 hours ago, Vort said:

Back when we were in our active baby-making days, my wife would get seriously irritated at casual Church friends and acquaintances asking us about our reproductive plans. Given this, I have a hard time skewering the author; my wife might have written a similar article. But I no longer agree with the mindset. I think we should actively seek to build such societal intimacy, even at the cost of having to come outside our comfort zone. That doesn't mean that our private lives become an open book or that we must actually answer such intrusive questions, only that we react gracefully to such intrusions, seeing them as a perhaps ham-fisted attempt at building friendship and emotional unity.

Good point. I had not thought of this but you are right. Many people try to strike up a friendship, do so clumsily but mean no harm.

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28 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Adding my vote to the "NEVER ask this question".

You have no idea what a couple is going through.  Speaking personally, hubby and I have one kid.  We tried more for years, getting no where, then having a miscarriage which nearly took my life-- a very dramatic experience.  And then followed up by a second miscarriage that nearly took my life again, and added even more trauma.  It's a hugely sensitive topic. 

NEVER ask "when are you going to have kids".  

 

Dear @Jane_Doe So very sorry to hear this! What a traumatic ordeal!

Edited by Sunday21
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8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Just read the above.  Couldn't make myself read the article.

And this is what @Vort is saying about being isolationists.  Somebody is interested in someone else's life and all one can think of is... "it's none of your business and... what if I couldn't?  And the Proclamation says this is PRIVATE".  Nobody knows anymore how to make conversation.  They're not trying to make your decision for you or trying to get into your business!  They're just making conversation trying to talk about your life!  That's what MINISTERING is.  There's no ill intent on the question... so take it as it is and make conversation.  That's the perfect segue to telling the other person, "you know, we've really been struggling about having children.  There just might be something medically wrong with either one of us..." and you'll find compassion pouring forth in buckets.  Or if you really don't want to talk about it, there are very simple ways to navigate unwanted conversation, "we're just not ready yet and it's a topic that I'm not comfortable talking about..." and you'll find the well-intended person 9 times out of 10 would go "I'm sorry... how about them shoes?".

Are there the busybodies that would nag you about it?  Yes!  These are usually old people or people who just had children of their own.  A lot of old people have lived so long that they have become brutally honest and don't bother with filtering their thoughts before it goes through their tongues.  They're just happy somebody is still willing to listen to what they have to say.  And, of course, people who just had children of their own usually live in a certain myopia of gurgling babies and stinky diapers that for a certain phase in their lives, that's all they can talk about - babies, children, diapers... especially to other women.  And there's Relief Society folks who take the commandment to go forth and multiply very seriously.  So, how you converse with these people is to actually get out of your own self-absorption and see life from their perspective for a while.  This is how you make connections with people.  This is how you make conversation.  This is how you build friendships.  This is how you understand where the other person is coming from so you can learn how to be influential and show the person by your compassion how not to nag.  This is how you MINISTER.

And that's all I have to say about that.  And yes, I did not click on the article.  So this is simply a response to the opening salvo - which is horrible.

 

 

This was pretty much gonna be my exact response to the OP. +1

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6 hours ago, Scott said:

and to be chastised by the bishop for not having children (even if it was phrased in the form of a question)

Seems to me the conflation of questions with chastisement is a big part of the problem.

This seems simple.

Question: "Have you decided to not have children?"

Answer: "Nope. We want children, have been and are still trying."

6 hours ago, Scott said:

Asking when they are having children, even if the question had no ill intent can also add to the stress and pain. 

Sure it "can". But it shouldn't. And the fact that it does isn't a problem with the well-intentioned questioner. It's a problem with the hearer of chastisement when a simple question was asked. And even when the question isn't simple, but is based in unfair judgement, the problem of getting wounded is still with the hearer.

Frankly, I can understand people getting offended if they have chosen to not have children selfishly and then are constantly asked about it. That might put them in the wrong, but at least the offense makes sense. When it's not your fault it's the simplest explanation in the world. "It's not our fault. We've been trying."

And before you reply by telling me I don't know what I'm talking about -- 20 years -- so I had you beat by 10+.

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5 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, there can be a difference, but asking a couple about their child bearing plans is seldom helpful to the couple, even if it is done in a non-judgemental way.

Maybe the couple don't live in a bubble, and aren't the only ones in the world who being "helped" or not is in consideration.

5 hours ago, Scott said:

If the couple is having fertility issues, even the act of asking from family and friends (especially repeatedly) can cause a lot of pain. It just isn't a good idea, nor is it helpful in any way. 

And, once again, that's a problem with the person on the receiving end.

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

You have no idea what a couple is going through.  

Amen. 

People who ask the question mean well but sometimes they lack the tact/manners/compassion to understand it can be a painful topic for childless couples.  It's sad, but one thing you (generic) should learn at a very young age is that some people lack tact/manners/compassion. 

Edited by MormonGator
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17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe the couple don't live in a bubble, and aren't the only ones in the world who being "helped" or not is in consideration.

And, once again, that's a problem with the person on the receiving end.

TFP, I know you mean well here but... you're being extremely incentive to the very real and painful issues a couple may be going through.  When someone is hurting (or might be hurting), don't poke the wound.  And definetely don't poke the wound and then blame the hurt person for feeling pain when you do so.  People don't always want to disclose their reproductive history (and/or pain) for others.  For months I didn't remotely want to talk about all the stuff I was going through because frankly it REALLY hurt.  It was a topic that just opening up about would result in me completely breaking down-- reopening barely bandaged wounds to bleed all over again.  That's not something I owed to a random person.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Not so.  In my opinion at least, it isn't a good idea to ask a couple when they are having children, especially if they have been married for several years.  This is true weather or not they are infertile or fertile.    Asking isn't going to help in either case.

If other people desire everybody to have babies, asking a childless couple (regardless of why they are childless) doesn't help anyone.

I disagree.   Asking someone when they are going to have kids isn't useful or compassionate, regardless of how it is done.

If you want to reach out to someone or be compassionate, asking them when they are having kids isn't the way to do it.  The way to do it is to be there for them, let them know you care about them, and support them.  If they know you and trust you, chances are they might let you in on their trials.   Even if they don't tell you a thing it is always comforting to know that someone is your friend and there for you.  Asking someone whent they are having kids isn't going to accomplish this.   There are much better ways to go about this.   This is true even if they are fertile as well.

 

You may have good intentions, but when it comes to having kids, this is a completely different situation than a lot of others.   This isn't about avoiding conversations or problems for the sake of a few.

If I ask my daughter how her school is going and she says she is having a hard time, I can offer her help and encouragement.   I can say things like, "I can try and help you" or "I believe in you" or "I will do everything I can to encourage you to do your best".

If my coworker comes to me for help with anything (even a personal issue), I can help him or her out the best I can.  If I notice that they are down, I can even ask him or her what is wrong and if there is anything I can do to help.  I can offer help and encouragement.

If I am administering to a family, I can ask be their friend, check up on them, and ask them if there is anything they need my hlep with.  Even if they say no, I can let them know that I am there for them and available to help with anything I can.  

That is different than asking someone "when are you having kids".    What good will that do?   What are you supposed to do, offer to help get them pregnant? Encourage them to try harder?   Even if they don't have kids for other reasons, it still isn't a good idea.

It is much better to be their friend, encourage them, be there for them, etc.  No one is saying that people have to stop talking about babies or children either.   That is completely different than asking someone when they are having kids.      

 

But see, all these is a person trying to change ANOTHER person to cater to their desires/wants/feelings.  Everything is towards self.

Nothing of this loooong post shows any form of going out of your own self to talk to the other person trying to understand why they would bring that up in conversation.  Reaching out of one’s self. 

In your desire for others to serve you the exact way you want to be served by establishing your “acceptable conversation”, you forget to serve others and see where that conversation takes you.

Edited by anatess2
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24 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

TFP, I know you mean well here but... you're being extremely incentive to the very real and painful issues a couple may be going through.  When someone is hurting (or might be hurting), don't poke the wound.  And definetely don't poke the wound and then blame the hurt person for feeling pain when you do so.  People don't always want to disclose their reproductive history (and/or pain) for others.  For months I didn't remotely want to talk about all the stuff I was going through because frankly it REALLY hurt.  It was a topic that just opening up about would result in me completely breaking down-- reopening barely bandaged wounds to bleed all over again.  That's not something I owed to a random person.

There has to be a medium here.  Yeah, I think we can all agree that randomly asking tangentially-related people why they don’t have kids yet, is in bad taste and potentially hurtful.  On the other hand, there are a couple of people in one’s life who can appropriately say “I’m concerned you may not be getting the full benefit of your temple covenants.  Let’s talk about that”, and if a couple who is struggling with fertility can’t even handle that once every year or two . . . At some point, we just can’t expect the entire world to revolve around our individual idiosyncratic (and often invisible) trigger points. 

I say this, by the way, as someone who together with my wife went through a (mercifully short) period of infertility (as it turned out, the problem was *BOTH* of us).  And I know that other participants to this discussion, who are being accused of heartlessness at present, are speaking from a place of experience that they may or may not choose to share.  

Speaking more generally, my experience is that when discussion turns to difficult issues, it is often assumed that the hard-liners have never dealt with the issue personally.  This may be true in some cases; but for a lot of is, the thing is that we *have* dealt with the issue and found that we didn’t need quite as much accommodation as the current crop of sufferers seems to think is universally necessary.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

At some point, we just can’t expect the entire world to revolve around our individual idiosyncratic (and often invisible) trigger points. 

Agree, so if someone says "Why you haven't had children yet?" and I say "Because I live in mortal terror of them turning out to be people like you." would that be a decent and polite response? Or would that "trigger" them? 

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This topic is frustrating. 

Young couple without kids: Don’t tell me when I should have kids, that is personal!

Same couple years later that have kids: You should wait to have kids

I live my life by the motto “I’m living authentically and obeying the principles I subscribe to and assume everyone else is”So if I see a couple without kids, I choose to believe that they want a family but simply are not fertile. 

If I hear someone make a statement like “We don’t want kids”. I’ll shrug and say to myself “they just don’t understand”

If I see someone on a Latter-day Saint site writing an article about raising children and it says “And guess what? We’ve never felt like it was the right time. We have never once had any kind of spiritual prompting that we are supposed to start having children — or any desire to.” And takes quotes from general authorities out of context to push her point, My duty as a priesthood holder via Doctrine and Covenants 20 and my (not-so)righteous indignation kicks in. 

I could write a book about why she is wrong, but I’m just ganna expose her very first quotation and get back to life (for now).

the talk is here: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/children?lang=eng

the entire talk is about how the world marginalized having children and how we need to overcome that fear and choose to have a family. Prior to the opening quote the write so heavily leans on, Elder Anderson says:

”Many voices in the world today marginalize the importance of having children or suggest delaying or limiting children in a family. My daughters recently referred me to a blog written by a Christian mother (not of our faith) with five children. She commented: “[Growing] up in this culture, it is very hard to get a biblical perspective on motherhood. … Children rank way below college. Below world travel for sure. Below the ability to go out at night at your leisure. Below honing your body at the gym. Below any job you may have or hope to get.” She then adds: “Motherhood is not a hobby, it is a calling. You do not collect children because you find them cuter than stamps. It is not something to do if you can squeeze the time in. It is what God gave you time for.”

 

The whole talk argues against the sophistry that it’s ok to choose to not have kids. As do countless quotes from other general authorities. There isn’t a single general authority that has ever existed that would argue that point.

 

note: lastly to clarify. I do not think it is wise to ask and prod couples about when they are going to have children. Nor do I believe someone should be condemned for merely appearing to choose not to have Kids. The Only thing I disagree with in the article is the idea that choosing to not raise a family is as righteous as a decision as choosing to raise a family.

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10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

There has to be a medium here.  Yeah, I think we can all agree that randomly asking tangentially-related people why they don’t have kids yet, is in bad taste and potentially hurtful.  On the other hand, there are a couple of people in one’s life who can appropriately say “I’m concerned you may not be getting the full benefit of your temple covenants.  Let’s talk about that”, and if a couple who is struggling with fertility can’t even handle that once every year or two . . . At some point, we just can’t expect the entire world to revolve around our individual idiosyncratic (and often invisible) trigger points. 

I say this, by the way, as someone who together with my wife went through a (mercifully short) period of infertility (as it turned out, the problem was *BOTH* of us).  And I know that other participants to this discussion, who are being accused of heartlessness at present, are speaking from a place of experience that they may or may not choose to share.  

Speaking more generally, my experience is that when discussion turns to difficult issues, it is often assumed that the hard-liners have never dealt with the issue personally.  This may be true in some cases; but for a lot of is, the thing is that we *have* dealt with the issue and found that we didn’t need quite as much accommodation as the current crop of sufferers seems to think is universally necessary.  

Speaking my thoughts on the matter:

If it's somebody you don't know super well (like a brother or best friend), then you shouldn't be asking.  If it is your brother or best friend, then you should (ideally) know where they are on things without point blank asking.  Like I told my imitate family what happened- they didn't need to ask.  And they still know where we stand on things.  Of course, ideally doesn't always happen/

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6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Agree, so if someone says "Why you haven't had children yet?" and I say "Because I live in mortal terror of them turning out to be people like you." would that be a decent and polite response? Or would that "trigger" them? 

I preferred a wide-eyed “Good gravy, man, do you know what you have to DO to get pregnant?”

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@Just_A_Guy, this isn't directed towards you, so don't take it personally. 

I've noticed that some people love saying insulting and rude things, than being shocked-shocked! When someone is insulted or offended by it. If I walk up to you and say "Your daughter is a whore." and you look shocked and appalled, then do I get to say "Ha ha ha look at the snowflake. I triggered him! Ha ha ha let's all laugh." Or, if you have an ugly mole on your cheek that you've been teased and bullied for for years, can I say to you "Dude, that thing on your face, it's disgusting! What? You want to punch me in the face? Ha ha ha ha I trigged you." 

There is "politically incorrect" and then there is "rude and classless." Now, just asking questions about children/lack of them doesn't fall into the situations I described. However, all of us should remember that everyone they encounter is fighting their own battles. And some of these battles can be very painful. 

The problem is doubled on the internet because I don't have to see the person. It's much easier to be rude/abrasive when I don't have to look at the person I'm hurting. And, of course, someone who is really rude and classless won't care what I say. 

Again this is not directed towards @Just_A_Guy.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This seems simple.

Question: "Have you decided to not have children?"

Answer: "Nope. We want children, have been and are still trying."

OK, not bad.  Can you tell me what purpose this served and what good asking the question did?   I just don't see how this is useful to the couple.   

Edited by Scott
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23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Just_A_Guy, this isn't directed towards you, so don't take it personally. 

I've noticed that some people love saying insulting and rude things, than being shocked-shocked! When someone is insulted or offended by it. If I walk up to you and say "Your daughter is a whore." and you look shocked and appalled, then do I get to say "Ha ha ha look at the snowflake. I triggered him! Ha ha ha let's all laugh." Or, if you have an ugly mole on your cheek that you've been teased and bullied for for years, can I say to you "Dude, that thing on your face, it's disgusting! What? You want to punch me in the face? Ha ha ha ha I trigged you." 

There is "politically incorrect" and then there is "rude and classless." Now, just asking questions about children/lack of them doesn't fall into the situations I described. However, all of us should remember that everyone they encounter is fighting their own battles. And some of these battles can be very painful. 

The problem is doubled on the internet because I don't have to see the person. It's much easier to be rude/abrasive when I don't have to look at the person I'm hurting. And, of course, someone who is really rude and classless won't care what I say. 

Again this is not directed towards @Just_A_Guy.

That’s fair.  The issue, of course, is simply that sometimes hard truths have to be spoken.  I need to know if my daughter has been seen at a brothel.  If there’s some new medical treatment that’ll clear up that mole—I want to hear about it.  Yet if we give some folks their way, certain necessary truths will simply never be spoken and, therefore, cannot be fixed.  And put in simplest terms, the whole point of the Gospel is to fix stuff.  

22 minutes ago, Scott said:

OK, not bad.  Can you tell me what purpose this served and what good asking the question did?   I just don't see how this is useful to the couple.   

In the context of a bishop's interview:  the bishop is a common judge in Israel, with authority to help ward members on their paths to exaltation and warn against problematic attitudes and behavior.

And I’m gonna say it:  a couple that unnecessarily eschews child rearing, is limiting the quality of their exaltation (if not forfeiting it entirely).  We were anointed to become kings.  Our kingdoms = our own descendants—Brigham Young taught that we don’t get to go poach someone else’s progeny to pad our own dominions.  Thus (allowing for God’s ability to somehow make us whole for blessings we strove for but were denied in life through no fault of our own), a conscious decision to have fewer kids = a diminished fulfillment of the promise of eternal increase; and that is doctrine.  The number of spirits waiting for bodies is finite; and our duty is to get them here; and if we don’t raise them, someone else will; and that “someone else” may be far worse of parents than we are. That is, if not doctrine, pretty darned solid doctrinal extrapolation.  

It is not for the bishop to arbitrarily say what does and doesn’t constitute the unnecessary eschewment of child-rearing and to demand that the couple meet the bishop’s preferred standard.  But it is very much within the bishop’s prerogative to, privately and tactfully, encourage a person to consider whether selfishness may be undercutting the person’s own nominal spiritual goals. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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35 minutes ago, Scott said:

OK, not bad.  Can you tell me what purpose this served and what good asking the question did?   I just don't see how this is useful to the couple.   

You're looking at it backwards.

I'm not suggesting that it's good (or bad) to go about asking couples without kids when or if they're going to have them. I'm suggesting that when people do ask such a thing that not making a big deal of it is a much healthier approach, because the poor health issue (mental/emotional/physical) is not typically on the side of people who are asking an innocent, well-meaning question.

Even if I bought into the idea that it "never" did any good to ask such questions (which I don't, because you're reading into this from your perspective, and my perspective, having been also through severe infertility, is different, which proves that the "never" is wrong), the solution to the problem in each individual's life is to STOP BEING OFFENDED.

The entire approach to offense from the stop offending people point of view is ludicrous. Instead of the one single individual working on not being offended we're going to try and convince the whole world to never say things -- even accidentally -- that offend other people. Good luck with that.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That’s fair.  The issue, of course, is simply that sometimes hard truths have to be spoken.

True to a point. And remember that there is a difference between "hard truth" and "I'm a bully who likes to hurt peoples feelings. I'm going to make fun of a little person. He's weak, he's frail. So it'll be fun. Watch me "trigger" him!" 

And like I said, that kind of behavior happens way more on the internet because polite, decent society doesn't tolerate it. 

Edited by MormonGator
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Guest Scott
29 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

But see, all these is a person trying to change ANOTHER person to cater to their desires/wants/feelings.  Everything is towards self.

Nothing of this loooong post shows any form of going out of your own self to talk to the other person trying to understand why they would bring that up in conversation.  Reaching out of one’s self. 

In your desire for others to serve you the exact way you want to be served by establishing your “acceptable conversation”, you forget to serve others and see where that conversation takes you.

We're defininately not going to agree on this.

In my eyes, there are questions that are helpful to someone and questions that are not.

I see no benefit to asking someone when they are going to have kids.  I see potential harm, but no potential gain even if the couple was not hurt (which hopfully would be the vast majority of the time).  

 There are way to ask someone questions that might help them out and ways to ask someone questions that are not useful to them.   Even if it doesn't cause pain, there is no reason to ask someone "when are you going to have kids?".   That's a lot worse than asking someone "when's the last time you had sex with your husband and what position did you use?"   Neither one is anyone's business other than the couples' and asking doesn't help the couple in any way.    

 

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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

remember that there is a difference between "hard truth" and "I'm a bully who likes to hurt peoples feelings. I'm going to make fun of a little person. He's weak, he's frail. So it'll be fun. Watch me "trigger" him!" 

And only God and those with specific stewardship is able to judge motives like this.

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

TFP, I know you mean well here but... you're being extremely incentive to the very real and painful issues a couple may be going through.

You're being extremely insensitive to a very real and painful issue that I'm going through. How dare you?

You may think I'm just saying this to make a point. And the "how dare you" part is, I'll admit. But the first sentence is not. I have been struggling in the EXTREME with people saying horrible things like this to me all the time when my efforts are well-intentioned. So if your advice is really that I should just shut up when someone takes something I say hurtfully then you need to shut up.

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

And only God and those with specific stewardship is able to judge motives like this.

To a degree. If you walk up to a child with cancer and mock them for having no hair, society will judge you. And it won't be pretty. In fact, if you aren't careful, your actions could go viral and your life could be ruined. 

And frankly, if you are so lacking in basic compassion that you feel the need to mock children with cancer, you deserve to have your life ruined. But hey, it's a harsh truth that children with cancer have no hair, so I'm just triggering them right? 

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14 minutes ago, Scott said:

I see potential harm, but no potential gain even if the couple was not hurt (which hopfully would be the vast majority of the time). 

Well one potential gain is that when I ask someone why they want to have kids and they get mortally offended at it then I now know that said person needs to be tip-toed around. ;)

On a serious note -- the way you develop friendship with people -- real friendship, not superficial stuff -- is by discussing exactly this sort of thing. If I can't ask personal questions of people then I cannot get to know them, and vice-versa. That doesn't mean timing and tact are not important. But there is, very definitely, a time and place to get to know these sorts of things about people as you are getting to know them or else you're not actually getting to know them. Of course, as I joked above, if you find hurt feelings occur with certain subjects then that is also getting to know them.

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