Please Don’t Ask Me When I’m Having Kids


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I do think talking about the need to avoid this question should be discussed. For people like my wife and I, who are so fertile that mere kissing causes pregnancy, this question is on the same level as “what are your plans after college?”

The whole scenario is like someone’s doorbell being hooked up to a shock collar. We press the button cause we want to say hello, but don’t realize it is hurting you. But would surely stop if we knew

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17 minutes ago, Fether said:

but don’t realize it is hurting you. But would surely stop if we knew

I used to think that way, that people would stop if they knew the topic was sensitive and hurtful. Now, I am 100% convinced that many, many people (especially online) would just laugh at you and call you a "snowflake" if you dared to say "Hey, that's a sensitive topic. I don't know you well enough to discuss that." I'm also convinced these people act a certain way online because they are lacking something in their personal lives. 

And no, I don't think you are one of them @Fether. Not at all. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I used to think that way, that people would stop if they knew the topic was sensitive and hurtful. Now, I am 100% convinced that many, many people (especially online) would just laugh at you and call you a "snowflake" if you dared to say "Hey, that's a sensitive topic. I don't know you well enough to discuss that." I'm also convinced these people act a certain way online because they are lacking something in their personal lives. 

And no, I don't think you are one of them @Fether. Not at all. 

To clarify, I was referring to well meaning people that are oblivious to reasons why this topic would be hurtful

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51 minutes ago, Fether said:

The whole scenario is like someone’s doorbell being hooked up to a shock collar. We press the button cause we want to say hello, but don’t realize it is hurting you. But would surely stop if we knew

I guess it's offensive and totally inappropriate to suggest that figuring out how to remove the shock collar might be a good plan.

 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I used to think that way, that people would stop if they knew the topic was sensitive and hurtful. Now, I am 100% convinced that many, many people (especially online) would just laugh at you and call you a "snowflake" if you dared to say "Hey, that's a sensitive topic. I don't know you well enough to discuss that." I'm also convinced these people act a certain way online because they are lacking something in their personal lives. 

And no, I don't think you are one of them @Fether. Not at all. 

If the Church gave tattoos a green light, I would get this entire thing tattooed on my forehead. (It’d have to be really small print, but... #worthit)

I also find it interesting when people assign motives to an author’s writing. I say a lot of prayers — a lot — before I write anything. I seek to know what Heavenly Father would like me to say. But no matter what I write, it makes someone mad, and that’s fine. I’ve had to learn to not let it hurt my feelings. And while I certainly make mistakes, it does disappoint me when people who say I’M looking to be offended seem to be looking to find offense themselves. They come out, guns blazing, ready to attack one piece of an article without reading the entire thing and trying to get a sense of the message it conveys.

So thanks for understanding that I was trying to bring awareness to a sensitive issue and say, “Hey, even though you’re not trying to hurt someone by asking this question, it can cause pain. Just wanted you to know because I know you’re trying to help others and this is how you can do so.” It’s not meant to be an attack on anyone; instead, it’s supposed to help us all be more sensitive to others stations in life and to live in more harmony.

Basically I’m trying to say that you are a gem, MormonGator. A scaly, green gem. 💚

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I think unless you are one of the two people in the couple, you shouldn't ask about babies. I had so many things said to me about it. Once was during a miscarriage, I wasn't very nice about it. I was told all sorts of horrible things by peope who thought they knew about my life. It's not something that I advertised.  I felt like failure and didn't  need to tell anyone my struggle to conceive and stay pregnant.  It's no one's business. 

 It's hard to not be able to have kids. It's harder in the church.  

 

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7 hours ago, amykeim said:

If the Church gave tattoos a green light, I would get this entire thing tattooed on my forehead. (It’d have to be really small print, but... #worthit)

I also find it interesting when people assign motives to an author’s writing. I say a lot of prayers — a lot — before I write anything. I seek to know what Heavenly Father would like me to say. But no matter what I write, it makes someone mad, and that’s fine. I’ve had to learn to not let it hurt my feelings. And while I certainly make mistakes, it does disappoint me when people who say I’M looking to be offended seem to be looking to find offense themselves. They come out, guns blazing, ready to attack one piece of an article without reading the entire thing and trying to get a sense of the message it conveys.

So thanks for understanding that I was trying to bring awareness to a sensitive issue and say, “Hey, even though you’re not trying to hurt someone by asking this question, it can cause pain. Just wanted you to know because I know you’re trying to help others and this is how you can do so.” It’s not meant to be an attack on anyone; instead, it’s supposed to help us all be more sensitive to others stations in life and to live in more harmony.

Basically I’m trying to say that you are a gem, MormonGator. A scaly, green gem. 💚

Thanks @amykeim, very sweet of you to say! 

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9 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I guess it's offensive and totally inappropriate to suggest that figuring out how to remove the shock collar might be a good plan.

 

I do agree with you here. We can't control the world. There will always be people who say upsetting things to you (generic), both accidentally and on purpose, and it's a very useful life lesson to strive to learn control for your (generic) own reactions.

However, I do think there is value in learning to control one's own tongue as well, which was the point of my earlier post. Because of the pain my wife and I went through (especually my wife) due to infertility (which you completely understand) I will not ask that question of strangers or the person I say hi to once a week. We can't control the world, as you rightly pointed out, but we can control ourselves.

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9 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

However, I do think there is value in learning to control one's own tongue as well,

Well, if lack of control were really the issue then I suppose I agree. But I don't have the sense that people who are asking others about this sort of thing just....cannot.....control....themselves.... even though they know better.

Rather, I suspect, that many people expect others to be mature and reasonable about things.

The message, I suppose, is really that expecting people to be mature and reasonable about any given thing in some cases is silly.

I maintain, however -- if someone cannot be mature and reasonable about any given subject, then the problem is with the inability to be mature and reasonable.

In cases where the questioiner is being immature and unreasonable then the same imperative to be mature and reasonable lies with them.

We (my wife and I) had a friend in a few wards back. This was before we had children. One time she suggested to us that we should do everything in our power to get a child because of how wonderful it was to have a child. I remember this stung. It was, really, pretty insensitive of her. It stung on the one hand because it implied we weren't really trying. It stung on another hand because we didn't need it rubbed in that having children was wonderful (we already cried all the time from just such an idea). And it stung on a third hand because in a way we had made some poor choices and it felt like a rebuke.

But I, being reasonable and mature, knew very well that she didn't mean this offense. So how did I respond? I smiled and thanked her for the advice, and told her I agreed. And we maintained the friendship with no issues whatsoever.

I understood why she said this and where it was coming from. It wasn't a judgment. It wasn't to rebuke us. It wasn't to be hurtful. It was because she loved her child, and cared about us, and wanted us to have the same joy she'd found. That motivation IS the point. It is that motivation -- love of her fellow men -- that I want to support. I see no reason to rebuke her in response to my feeling rebuked, justifiably or not. What I think my response should be is to feel motivated to buoy her up in response, sustain her good efforts, and be understanding of her imperfection in communicating something to me in a way that she, realistically, could not really understand.

So, once again, I don't advocate that people go out and say hurtful things on purpose. I advocate that people see the good, well-intentioned, kind, love-based efforts that many people are making when bringing this subject up, and flatly forgive them for their imperfect approaches to it. And I contend that the inability to give people this sort of benefit, and to frankly and simply let such things roll off, despite the initial sting, is the greater problem.

I don't feel that ascribing nasty, conniving, snotty, holier-than-thou motives to people who ask about children and families is either valid or useful. I think it is, rather, quite harmful.

Now, just to be clear: @amykeim, I am not criticizing your article by saying any of these things. I haven't read it. I don't tend to read thirdhour articles. I'm only responding to some of the comments and ideas presented in this thread (and partly just sharing my thoughts regardless of what has or hasn't been said by anyone). Based on what your post said I think there's probably value in your article. I think educating people that some things can be hurtful and that it's a good idea to be aware of that is important.

So my comments are not a critique of the article. I simply tend to feel that the greater problem in many of these sorts of issues is not that church members offend others but, rather, that church members take offense. Actually it's not even just a church thing. It's a culture thing and a big problem of our current culture.

Being aware that we live in a culture where offense is easily taken is smart though.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well, if lack of control were really the issue then I suppose I agree. But I don't have the sense that people who are asking others about this sort of thing just....cannot.....control....themselves.... even though they know better.

Rather, I suspect, that many people expect others to be mature and reasonable about things.

The message, I suppose, is really that expecting people to be mature and reasonable about any given thing in some cases is silly.

I maintain, however -- if someone cannot be mature and reasonable about any given subject, then the problem is with the inability to be mature and reasonable.

In cases where the questioiner is being immature and unreasonable then the same imperative to be mature and reasonable lies with them.

We (my wife and I) had a friend in a few wards back. This was before we had children. One time she suggested to us that we should do everything in our power to get a child because of how wonderful it was to have a child I remember this stung. It was, really, pretty insensitive of her. It stung on the one hand because it implied we weren't really trying. It stung on another hand because we didn't need it rubbed in that having children was wonderful (we already cried all the time from just such an idea). And it stung on a third hand because in a way we had made some poor choices and it felt like a rebuke.

But I, being reasonable and mature, knew very well that she didn't mean this offense. So how did I respond? I smiled and thanked her for the advice, and told her I agreed. And we maintained the friendship with no issues whatsoever.

I understood why she said this and where it was coming from. It wasn't a judgment. It wasn't to rebuke us. It wasn't to be hurtful. It was because she loved her child, and cared about us, and wanted us to have the same joy she'd found. That motivation IS the point. It is that motivation -- love of her fellow men -- that I want to support. I see no reason to rebuke her in response to my feeling rebuked, justifiably or not. What I think my response should be is to feel motivated to buoy her up in response, sustain her good efforts, and be understanding of her imperfection in communicating something to me in a way that she, realistically, could not really understand.

So, once again, I don't advocate that people go out and say hurtful things on purpose. I advocate that people see the good, well-intentioned, kind, love-based efforts that many people are making when bringing this subject up, and flatly forgive them for their imperfect approaches to it. And I contend that the inability to give people this sort of benefit, and to frankly and simply let such things roll off, despite the initial sting, is the greater problem.

I don't feel that ascribing nasty, conniving, snotty, holier-than-thou motives to people who ask about children and families is either valid or useful. I think it is, rather, quite harmful.

Now, just to be clear: @amykeim, I am not criticizing your article by saying any of these things. I haven't read it. I don't tend to read thirdhour articles. I'm only responding to some of the comments and ideas presented in this thread. Based on what your post said I think there's probably value. I think educating people that some things can be hurtful and that it's a good idea to be aware of that is important.

So my comments are not a critique of the article. I simply tend to feel that the greater problem in many of these sorts of issues is not that church members offend others but, rather, that church members take offense. Actually it's not even just a church thing. It's a culture thing and a big problem of our current culture.

Being aware that we live in a culture where offense is easily taken is smart though.

I agree with what you said. Too often it's easy, especially when you (generic) are in a hurtful situation like infertility, to hold grudges against people who unintentionally hurt you (generic). I like the example you shared, because just like that sister who was sharing her joy with you accidentally stung you, I had an uncle who did the same to me for similiar reasons. Like you, it was on me to forgive swiftly, as he did not mean anything hurtful by it, and I think there is a great deal to be said for being easy on our brothers and sisters, if for no other reason than that the Lord commanded it "with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again".

But while trying to change how the world acts is pretty much impossible, I can work on me. Since I know this caused me (and especially my wife) pain, the only people I'm going to bring this up with are family and close friends with whom I already have a close relationship. Since I'm aware of the issue, I can avoid causing pain. But overall, I think we are of a similiar mind.

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1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

But while trying to change how the world acts is pretty much impossible, I can work on me. Since I know this caused me (and especially my wife) pain, the only people I'm going to bring this up with are family and close friends with whom I already have a close relationship. Since I'm aware of the issue, I can avoid causing pain. But overall, I think we are of a similiar mind.

The following thought isn't one I'm convinced of, but it's a thought I had:

Were not the "stinging" experiences where you had the opportunity to quickly forgive and move one good for you? If those experiences in our lives were all removed would it be better for us?

I'm not suggesting "stinging" others purposefully per se. But........maybe.......a bit........sometimes? *shrug*

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On 5/17/2019 at 9:16 PM, Fether said:

I do think talking about the need to avoid this question should be discussed.

The talking has been and is being done.  The problem is all the people who haven't listened, or just can't believe that their perfect selves could possibly be the ones who need to shut up.  I mean, they're literally the real life version of this satiric imbecile.

 

20 hours ago, LadyGunnar said:

I think unless you are one of the two people in the couple, you shouldn't ask about babies.

I might include legitimate Priesthood line of authority in some cases, but even then it needs to be remembered that it is a personal decision between the couple and the Lord only.

20 hours ago, LadyGunnar said:

It's no one's business. 

That about sums it up; unless your spouse's genitals are also involved, what someone else does with theirs is not a topic you're ever entitled to bring up with them.

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Guest Mores

My fiancee and I were dining at a restaurant when the waitress noticed the ring.  She immediately asked, "Which temple are you getting married in?"

We weren't embarrassed by it, but since neither of us were raised in Happy Valley, we found it was kind of weird that she would immediately make the assumption.  Even though it was accurate, we just found it weird.  Culture Clash.

Basically, the complaints in the article as well as most of the comments on this thread (on both sides) amount to a culture clash.  The cultures are generational. 

The older generation simply cannot conceive (no pun intended) of a reason to not have children.  And they are used to the fact that everyone is eager to start having a family.

The younger generation (with obvious exceptions) cannot conceive of raising a family without first setting up their financial lives -- regardless of the unintended consequences of such a decision.

There are rational arguments on both sides.  But the older generation also follows the Lord.  This new way of thinking of children as dead weight or a burden rather than a blessing may have some technical merit, but it is nonetheless problematic.

Edited by Mores
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7 hours ago, Mores said:

The older generation simply cannot conceive (no pun intended) of a reason to not have children.

Really?  In what year did the first infertile person get married?  How about the first woman who already knew pregnancy would be a serious risk to her health due to existing medical conditions?

It's hardly a new issue, and it's not the "older generation."  These questions often come from people barely in their 30s.

Edited by NightSG
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7 hours ago, Mores said:

This new way of thinking of children as dead weight or a burden rather than a blessing may have some technical merit, but it is nonetheless problematic.

Demographically, you are correct. More and more young people, even religious ones, are having fewer children, waiting longer to have children, etc. 

One conversation sticks out in my mind. When I asked an older person (she was 74 at the time) about the inventions like "the pill" she said "If they had that in my day I would have stopped at two." She was the mother of five. If she felt that way, I'm sure many, many other women-even from a different generation!-did as well. 

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10 minutes ago, NightSG said:

it's not the "older generation."  These questions often come from people barely in their 30s.

Fair comment.  Maybe it isn't generational.  But the reverse certainly is.

10 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Really?  In what year did the first infertile person get married?  How about the first woman who already knew pregnancy would be a serious risk to her health due to existing medical conditions?

Can we get past the always implied disclaimer that no statement is 100%?  There are always exceptions.

And what does infertility or health issues have to do with it?  There was always adoption since time immemorial.  And again it is the newer generation that rejects adoption.

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It shows a huge shift in thinking when religious women-those most likely to have bigger families (statement of fact, not an insult) start having smaller families. Bob Dylan was right, the times they are a-changing. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

One conversation sticks out in my mind. When I asked an older person (she was 74 at the time) about the inventions like "the pill" she said "If they had that in my day I would have stopped at two." She was the mother of five. If she felt that way, I'm sure many, many other women-even from a different generation!-did as well. 

I'm afraid that, here, we're really stuck with hypotheticals that cannot be answered properly.

We have already accepted that there will be exceptions.  I know MANY people of the generation preparing to leave this earth.  And at least a few would have taken the option of having fewer children.  But fewer still wanted to wait to have children.  It may seem strange from today's mindset.  But the idea of having no children appealed to some.  And some had no option.  But the idea of wanting children, but to wait and have them later?  This is a new (30 or 40 years ago) development.

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2 minutes ago, Mores said:

This is a new (30 or 40 years ago) development.

It's an extremely new development.I know I said it in the previous post and I apologize, but the world is changing and surprisingly, so are the members of the church. 

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On 5/17/2019 at 1:30 PM, Scott said:

. . .   He kind of chastised me for not having children.   He asked us something like "have you guys just decided not to have children?"  and had a bunch of quotes ready from church leaders stressing the importance of having children.  He didn't know that we had been trying for years, had contacted LDS Social Service, were about to request the interview with the bishop for eligibility, but stopped the process once my wife got pregnant.   He didn't know that we had just lost the baby. 
. . .
Please don't be judgemental towards couples without children because you never know the reasons behind it.   Asking when they are having children, even if the question had no ill intent can also add to the stress and pain.  Please don't do it.  

Or, in these situations, one could choose to be like Pahoran:

Quote

". . . in your epistle you have censured me, but it mattereth not; I am not angry, but do rejoice in the greatness of your heart.
. . .  We would subject ourselves to the yoke of bondage if it were requisite with the justice of God, or if he should command us so to do.  But behold he doth not command us that we shall subject ourselves to our enemies, but that we should put our trust in him, and he will deliver us.
. . . Therefore, my beloved brother, Moroni, let us resist evil . . . that we may rejoice in the great privilege of our church, and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God.
. . . Moroni, I do joy in receiving your epistle, for I was somewhat worried concerning what we should do . . . And now I close mine epistle to my beloved brother, Moroni.

My wife and I went through a similar ordeal in life.  In our case, however, we never ran into a situation like that with our bishop, because when people asked us about kids we would straight up tell them that we are physically unable to have children.  Older women would be extra kind to my wife; young mothers would treat her like she had no idea what they were going through, or that they understood her because they had to go to the doctor one time to find out why they were initially having trouble getting pregnant.

In all honesty, though I don't know all the details, I will admit that my initial reaction is to be somewhat judgemental of your situation, if only because, unless your bishop was newly called, the fact that he had no idea what was going on at all seems very unusual.  When my wife and I started the process to go through LDS Family Services for adoption, we immediately told our bishop that we would likely be looking to him for certain steps in the process.  If you had not been going through the specific ordeal you faced, the Bishop would have been right to interview you in such a way.  Hence, he was in the right, because he didn't know, and this led him to the information that he then gained about your circumstances.

For us, the adoption process through LDS Family Services fell through for because they terminated the program altogether to quell legal action by same sex couples.  Long story short, we now have 7 children brought to us by various miraculous means (all through the Foster System); 2 adoptions final, and 5 to be final before the end of this year.

Now the questions we get are, "how do you do it?", to which the comical yet bluntly honest answer is, "because they are our children and we have to".

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On 5/17/2019 at 8:46 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

I preferred a wide-eyed “Good gravy, man, do you know what you have to DO to get pregnant?”

How about: ‘ I am not going to lower my moral standards just because I’m married!’  That should result in a very interesting interview with the Bishop. ‘But Bishop, my husband expects me to have sex with him! Said with a very pained expression. 

That should lead to an offer of conselling pretty quickly.

Poor bishops. How do they manage? Imagine handling such interviews after a long day at work, 4 kids, and a mortgage. Sigh!

Edited by Sunday21
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On 5/17/2019 at 10:16 PM, Fether said:

I do think talking about the need to avoid this question should be discussed. For people like my wife and I, who are so fertile that mere kissing causes pregnancy, this question is on the same level as “what are your plans after college?”

The whole scenario is like someone’s doorbell being hooked up to a shock collar. We press the button cause we want to say hello, but don’t realize it is hurting you. But would surely stop if we knew

You can’t ask ‘What are you going to do after college?’ Really? 

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11 hours ago, Mores said:

My fiancee and I were dining at a restaurant when the waitress noticed the ring.  She immediately asked, "Which temple are you getting married in?"

We weren't embarrassed by it, but since neither of us were raised in Happy Valley, we found it was kind of weird that she would immediately make the assumption.  Even though it was accurate, we just found it weird.  Culture Clash.

Basically, the complaints in the article as well as most of the comments on this thread (on both sides) amount to a culture clash.  The cultures are generational. 

The older generation simply cannot conceive (no pun intended) of a reason to not have children.  And they are used to the fact that everyone is eager to start having a family.

The younger generation (with obvious exceptions) cannot conceive of raising a family without first setting up their financial lives -- regardless of the unintended consequences of such a decision.

There are rational arguments on both sides.  But the older generation also follows the Lord.  This new way of thinking of children as dead weight or a burden rather than a blessing may have some technical merit, but it is nonetheless problematic.

I would like to say, for the record, it literally never crossed my mind that this article was saying, “It’s okay to not have kids” or “It’s okay to postpone kids until you’re more financially settled.” I think the Lord has commanded us to have children and that having children even when we don’t feel ready, but feel that it’s what the Lord wants for us, shows great faith. On a personal note, I have a lot of health issues that have put me in a position where I don’t think I could take care of a child right now—I felt that was important to include in the article because it serves as an example of a situation that someone might not see on the surface. 

My goal with this article was to say that it’s not anyone’s business why you do or don’t have kids yet; it wasn’t to advocate not having (or even postponing) children—although truthfully, I think if someone is choosing to do so, it’s also not really my business and that’s not something they need to reveal to me. But really, my intent was to say, “Hey, this aspect of a marriage is really personal and questions about it shouldn’t be tossed around in casual conversation—especially because we never know the background of a couple’s situation and why they do or do not have children.”

Edited by amykeim
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3 hours ago, person0 said:

Or, in these situations, one could choose to be like Pahoran:

Not to threadjack, but for the last couple of years as I’ve read Pahoran’s epistle I’ve had the feeling that he was manipulating Moroni, just a bit.  Not that Pahoran was a bad guy; but he had an agenda, he wasn’t sure Moroni would buy into it, and he thus used Moroni’s own words to more-or-less compel him to do Pahoran’s bidding.  Again—not necessarily a bad thing; but the guy strikes me as having been a consummate politician. 

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