Please Don’t Ask Me When I’m Having Kids


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41 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

What I've noticed is that those throwing around the term "snowflake" turn into sniveling babies and love to play the victim whenever anyone says anything negative about their favorite sports team. Their favorite band. Their alma mater. Their favorite color. Their religion. Their ethnicity. Notice a pattern? 

I know a lady on my Facebook who complains about millennials being thin skinned, but if you say anything about the college she attended, she'll rant for hours and go one about how her school is treated so unfairly. Does she see the irony? Three guesses. 
 

Kind of like when people point out those who accuse others of being judgemental are themselves being judgemental?  Per you we need to we need to do some self evaluation if someone calls us judgmental to see if they might have a point (no matter how hypocritical it might seem)... would it not logically follow that if someone calls us a snowflake we should also do some self evaluation (No matter how flake the person calling might seem)

(I say this as a self evaluated judgmental snowflake who does not need anyone to point it out to him but people will anyways)

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1 hour ago, Mores said:

Given that we're all snowflakes.  What would be your solution?  Just stop talking to people?  Stop getting to know them? 

Great question (and I'm being serious). 

Let's consider how we get to know someone. We don't introduce ourselves than say, "So I heard your Mom routinely cheated on you Dad, leading to their divorce when your were 8 and boy, did that mess you up. By the way, my name is Peter. Yours?" No, we start slow. We should actually take the effort to get to know someone than, after more than just 5 minutes, we can ask them deeper questions. 

 

1 hour ago, Mores said:

I understand that this idea of asking "when are you having kids?" is considered personal.  I totally understand it and, being aware, I agree with it.  But to many it isn't all that personal.  It's just making conversation.

 

Thank you, I honestly do appreciate that. And frankly, I think you have a point. Some people ARE too sensitive, and yes, some people are just making conversation when they ask a question that someone might see as "crossing the line." @Mores, you are right again-I don't think the majority of people are trying to be rude or cruel. 

 

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1 minute ago, Mores said:

Past history has shown me that when I take time to write out a lengthy description of what I mean, too often people reply with a form of, "duh-uh.  I got that from the first line.  You didn't have to treat me like an idiot."

But since you asked, I'll treat you like an idiot.  Just kidding.  I don't think you're an idiot.  But I'll try to clear up my cryptic post.

Compare your post with what you're complaining about Gator's post.  You accused him of using an "exaggerated straw-man".  Basically use an exaggeration to say something that was never said.  But you just did the same thing to him.

Your faux quote: "How dare you call people snowflakes and be so sensitive!"  was never written by Gator.  You exaggerated his post that certainly contained a similar theme.  But it was exaggerated.  It was mischaracterized.  It was apart from overall concept, nowhere near what he actually said.

I see.

First, I wasn't not trying to treat you like an idiot. I was simply trying to say that, in my opinion, saying "You don't see the irony do you?" is a rhetorical question because you already knew that I didn't, and if I don't then the answer is obviously, "no", so instead of answering the obvious question I replied by saying, "why don't you just explain?" I suppose I should have just said "no". But, realistically, it strike me that, "You don't see the irony do you?" was the first treating-someone-like-an-idiot comment in the exchange, and so I might have responded in kind a bit for which I apologize. (And, along the lines of treating others like idiots btw...I don't think the word you're looking for is "irony" ;)).

As to the exaggerations, I'm not talking about Gator's posts. I only put "MG and others" because his post was the one I sprungboard from. I'm talking about several people's posts. I was literally told how insensitive I was being and that I was poking wounds. And Amy literally said, "I think people ... are quick to point the finger and say, "YOU'RE TAKING OFFENSE, YOU SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!"

Now is it my exaggeration to presume that Amy's all caps was meant to imply a "how dare you"? Maybe. And maybe the specific use of the word "snowflake" is meant only as a generic term to represent an idea rather than as an exaggeration.

Okay...I still maintain there's an imbalance here.

It is pure falsehood to equate a discussion point with what amounts to name calling. It is always a falsehood. It's a bad argument. It's ad hominem.

It's also a false equivalent to claim that pointing out ad hominem argments is the same as a strawman response, even if the point expressing the ad hominem argument was exaggerated to try and make the point. There is a distinct difference between exaggerating a point to make a point and exaggerating a point to create an ad hominem strawman to attack.

Example:

Person A is scared to walk across a bridge. Person B, trying to support and assist Person A put their hand on Person A's shoulder with some slight encouraging pressure saying, "We can do this!" Person A recoils and shouts, "Don't shove me! You're shoving me! Stop shoving!!" When the crowd gathers, asking, "why did you shove him?" Person B say, "I put my hand on his shoulder as encouragement and he responded like I'm trying to murder him!"

There is a clear difference that should be moderately obvious. Person A's exaggeration is false. It isn't true. Person B's exaggeration is using extremity to make a stronger point. Whereas I grant that better communication would not include Person B's exaggeration, (and I'll grant that my communication would have likely been better served without the "how dare you" exaggeration), to treat both types of exaggerations as if they're the same is invalid.

So I'll say this a clearly as possible sans exaggeration: When people here suggest that ideas such as turning the other cheek is an important principle for everyone to learn, it is an ad hominem strawman to respond with accusations of insensitivity, and to imply that the suggestion of turning the other cheek amounts to a suggestion that we are against trying not to "BE an offender".

Another thought I've had on the imbalance of the views:

One side claims that we need to be sensitive to others, while at the same time insensitively telling the other side how insensitive they are.

The other side simply claims that people shouldn't be so sensitive.

Now I won't claim there is no ad hominem on my side of the thinking. But I'll also point out that if there is, that point as a rebuttal is also a logical fallacy. My argument being exaggerated doesn't have any bearing on whether the counter argument has any veracity.

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Guest MormonGator
46 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Kind of like when people point out those who accuse others of being judgemental are themselves being judgemental?  Per you we need to we need to do some self evaluation if someone calls us judgmental to see if they might have a point (no matter how hypocritical it might seem)... would it not logically follow that if someone calls us a snowflake we should also do some self evaluation (No matter how flake the person calling might seem)

(I say this as a self evaluated judgmental snowflake who does not need anyone to point it out to him but people will anyways)

Of course, both sides certainly need to do some self examination and self critique. 

So I'm going to ask you a "blunt question." When someone has a child with Down's Syndrome, why don't you walk up to them and say "So, you have a R----D for son? What went wrong? Premature birth? Wife smoke? Yeah, your kid is messed up." Do you do that? No, because it's unfathomably offensive and beyond rude. (Actually I don't know you maybe you do do that). But hey, it's just keeping it real right? Being blunt and honest? 

Yeah, if that parents get angry for me saying that to them, they are totally thin skinned babies. 
 

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Guest Mores
33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Great question (and I'm being serious). 

Let's consider how we get to know someone. We don't introduce ourselves than say, "So I heard your Mom routinely cheated on you Dad, leading to their divorce when you were 8 and boy, did that mess you up. By the way, my name is Peter. Yours?" No, we start slow. We should actually take the effort to get to know someone than, after more than just 5 minutes, we can ask them deeper questions. 

Thank you, I honestly do appreciate that. And frankly, I think you have a point. Some people ARE too sensitive, and yes, some people are just making conversation when they ask a question that someone might see as "crossing the line." @Mores, you are right again-I don't think the majority of people are trying to be rude or cruel. 

Thanks.

So, given this kum by yah moment, would you have some suggestions for Amy to put into her follow up article (which, BTW, I was serious about suggesting) on what to do in those instances?

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7 minutes ago, Mores said:

Thanks.

So, given this kum by yah moment, would you have some suggestions for Amy to put into her follow up article (which, BTW, I was serious about suggesting) on what to do in those instances?

I propose a truce, like the Peace of Westphalia (shout out to my history buff friend, @Midwest LDS). We'll stop being offended at questions about our personal lives if you stop being offended by vulgar content in music and movies. Then, you can come over to my house, ask me all the questions you want to about my sex life, adoption, addiction to Oxycontin, and time in the Massachusetts House of Corrections  while we listen to GG Allin and watch American Psycho. 

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21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Of course, both sides certainly need to do some self examination and self critique. 

So I'm going to ask you a "blunt question." When someone has a child with Down's Syndrome, why don't you walk up to them and say "So, you have a R----D for son? What went wrong? Premature birth? Wife smoke? Yeah, your kid is messed up." Do you do that? No, because it's unfathomably offensive and beyond rude. (Actually I don't know you maybe you do do that). But hey, it's just keeping it real right? Being blunt and honest? 

Yeah, if that parents get angry for me saying that to them, they are totally thin skinned babies. 
 

As a father of a special needs kid your example fails (but note I did not call you an insensitive jerk or offensive for bringing up a topic as an example that I find very personal)

It fails because in my experience no parent (who wants there kid aka does not abort) will choose to take a perfectly healthy child and hurt them so they are permanently special needs.  (thus your example is has no other option but being offensive and beyond rude)

There is not a comparative unity on the subject of having children... Some do indeed struggle, others have chosen not to.  And as an outsider with a mandate to minster we can't know if we need to often support and sympathy... or acknowledge they have chosen to not follow council

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10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

As a father of a special needs kid your example fails (but note I did not call you an insensitive jerk or offensive for bringing up a topic as an example that I find very personal)

It fails because in my experience no parent (who wants there kid aka does not abort) will choose to take a perfectly healthy child and hurt them so they are permanently special needs.  (thus your example is has no other option but being offensive and beyond rude)

There is not a comparative unity on the subject of having children... Some do indeed struggle, others have chosen not to.  And as an outsider with a mandate to minster we can't know if we need to often support and sympathy... or acknowledge they have chosen to not follow council

Wrong, it actually succeeds because it shows a greater point-there are things you just don't talk about in public, especially with people you don't know. And, if I said that to you in person, I think you probably would be offended. Or if you weren't, another parent of a special needs child would be. So again, being blunt and "politically incorrect" has it's limits. And for the record no, I would never say that. I was using it as an example. 

It also raises a good point. As an adopted child, when people talk about adoption or make jokes about it, I don't call them "insensitive jerks" either. 

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Guest Mores
1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

while we listen to GG Allin

Whoa! I'm offended already.  Just kidding.

But seriously, imagine you're on either side of an awkward introductory question exchange.  What do you do?  What advice would you give to both the person who has just been "offended" (and I use that word with a broad brush) and what would you advise the person who has just been informed that his question hurt?  And where would you draw the line?

At some point, we have to say that we're not going to change our speech to satisfy someone else's feelings, don't we?  So, what would be a point where you'd do that?

Trump used the term "Anchor baby" during his candidacy.  A reporter asked him if he realized it was offensive to some people.  So, he responded:

T: Is it?  Ok.  So, what do you want me to call them?
R: Children of undocumented immigrants.
T: You want me to call them that?!  What a mouthful!  I think I'll just say anchor baby, and you'll all know what I mean.
R: But Mr. Trump (blah blah).
T: Excuse me.  I'm going to say anchor baby.

He made some recognition that he was willing to make some effort.  But let's face it, he's right.  That is a mouthful.  

We have a parallel with the use of the word "Mormon".  But we are not offended by it.  So, we are asked to politely correct where appropriate.  It's not something we demand.

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Just now, Mores said:

Whoa! I'm offended already. 

He crosses a line that I'm not comfortable with either, so see? Unity already! 

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It actually succeeds because it shows a greater point-there are things you just don't talk about in public, especially with people you don't know. 
 

Except this is about people in church who are suppose to get to know people and minister.. which you can't do without talking to people.  And you example was not "Something you should not talk about in public." Using special needs child as a the topic (I talk about my special needs child when relevant)  Your example was "Accusing parents of harming their child." And I will agree you do not go up to strangers and accuse them of harming child.

But but when you are trying to get to know someone you do ask question to accomplish that (you have too).  And subjects like family, career, future plans, and past history... While they might have an occasional bombshell are generally good ways of getting to know people

 

Edited by estradling75
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24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I propose a truce, like the Peace of Westphalia (shout out to my history buff friend, @Midwest LDS). We'll stop being offended at questions about our personal lives if you stop being offended by vulgar content in music and movies. Then, you can come over to my house, ask me all the questions you want to about my sex life, adoption, addiction to Oxycontin, and time in the Massachusetts House of Corrections  while we listen to GG Allin and watch American Psycho. 

A little meme just for using such a great reference😉

6eyz45giwwv11.jpg

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53 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 which you can't do without talking to people.

Right, and like I said in previous posts, relationships are organic and take time to grow. If you ask blunt questions on your first meeting, it's not going to work. There won't be room to grow because the person will view you as rude, insulting or blunt.  Think of it as giving milk before meat. 

I'm convinced this is only an internet issue. In the real world I don't know a single person who, upon meeting someone for the first time asks these blunt or uncomfortable questions. It's only via the internet, when we have a computer screen "protecting" us. 

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Right, and like I said in previous posts, relationships are organic and take time to grow. If you ask blunt questions on your first meeting, it's not going to work. There won't be room to grow because the person will view you as rude, insulting or blunt.  Think of it as giving milk before meat. 

When did "Do you have kids?"  Become a rude, insulting or blunt question?

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Guest Mores
9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Right, and like I said in previous posts, relationships are organic and take time to grow. If you ask blunt questions on your first meeting, it's not going to work. There won't be room to grow because the person will view you as rude, insulting or blunt.  Think of it as giving milk before meat. 

I'm convinced this is only an internet issue. In the real world I don't know a single person who, upon meeting someone for the first time asks these blunt or uncomfortable questions. It's only via the internet, when we have a computer screen "protecting" us. 

Then why was the article (OP) written?

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9 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

When did "Do you have kids?"  Become a rude, insulting or blunt question?

It's not. Asking "Why don't you have kids? When are you going to have kids? Why aren't you going to have kids? Do you need Viagra? Fertility treatments?" is. 

 

10 minutes ago, Mores said:

Then why was the article (OP) written?

I don't know, I didn't write it. 

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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, Mores said:

I feel like I'm on Family Feud, but 

Good answer! Good answer!

Thanks! As a very little kid when I was home sick from school, I remember watching "Press Your Luck". Remember that show? Classic! 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

It's not. Asking "Why don't you have kids? When are you going to have kids? Why aren't you going to have kids? Do you need Viagra? Fertility treatments?" is.

Only if you are being clueless about how they are responding...  While I grant there are clueless people... clueless people should not make entire topics forbidden.

'Getting to know you conversations' are give and take events...If you ask someone "Do you have kids"  They respond.  Usually they will respond in great detail with what they are comfortable with, and then your response is based on their response.  If you start hitting monosyllabic responses "Yes", "No" etc you are losing them. (either a sensitive area or lack of interest) and you should adjust accordingly.

 

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Guest Mores
2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Thanks! As a very little kid when I was home sick from school, I remember watching "Press Your Luck". Remember that show? Classic! 

Yes, I do.  I never really liked it much, personally.

Did you hear about the supposed "cheater" on the show that won like $50k on that show?

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Mores said:

Yes, I do.  I never really liked it much, personally.

Did you hear about the supposed "cheater" on the show that won like $50k on that show?

I do remember that, but only vaguely. He memorized the pattern right? I'm too lazy/uninterested to Google what he actually did. I liked a lot of those game shows. I remember watching them eating saltines and drinking ginger ale. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

I do remember that, but only vaguely. He memorized the pattern right? I'm too lazy/uninterested to Google what he actually did. 

Yup.  That was the guy.  He then took the winnings and tried to parlay that to another big win.

A local radio station er other, had a contest to match serial numbers on your bills to some number.  He cashed all $50k into $1 bills.  And he was going to use that to win a $1MM prize.  But it so happened that he had it in a brown paper bag when he stopped by a friends house who happened to be having a party.  He got drunk... When he woke up the next morning, the bag was GONE!!!

He really was pressing his luck carrying around that much in cash.

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4 minutes ago, Mores said:

Yup.  That was the guy.  He then took the winnings and tried to parlay that to another big win.

A local radio station er other, had a contest to match serial numbers on your bills to some number.  He cashed all $50k into $1 bills.  And he was going to use that to win a $1MM prize.  But it so happened that he had it in a brown paper bag when he stopped by a friends house who happened to be having a party.  He got drunk... When he woke up the next morning, the bag was GONE!!!

He really was pressing his luck carrying around that much in cash.

He didn't really cheat, when you think about it (yes, I know you aren't saying he did!).  Sounds like the poor guy had some problems. 

 

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Guest Mores
10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

He didn't really cheat, when you think about it (yes, I know you aren't saying he did!).  Sounds like the poor guy had some problems. 

Yeah, I know.  And that's why the judges had to admit he did not cheat, and he was allowed to keep the winnings.  So they changed their practices after his show.

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