Soda Tax Simply Didn't Go Far Enough


Guest Mores
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Guest Mores

By now, I'm sure many have heard of the "Soda Tax" in Philidelphia.  We all know that the tax was really an effort to obtain more tax revenue.  But it was sold to the people as a means of "encouraging people to make more healthy drink choices."  Now that it has been implemented for over a year, we have now seen an unintended consequence that any first year free market economist predicted.

Soda sales dropped by 50% in the city limits.  But neighboring cities had a boost in soda sales.  IOW, the citizens of Philidelphia chose to go outside the city limits to buy their soda to avoid the tax.  Well, DUH-UH!

So, the natural reaction to this unintended consequence is obviously that the tax did not go far enough.  They should have taxed the entire state!!!  Yeah, that will help.

Not far enough?  OK.  What if they simply made it illegal?  If health was really the point, then why not?  That's really what justified the drug war and Obamacare.  So, if those were justified, then why not soda?

The problem is that a basic premise of business and entrepreneurship is something most people don't understand.  The object of business is NOT to simply make money. It is NOT to move goods or services in a mutually beneficial manner.  Those are the goals of capitalism.  The object of business is to create a customer.  And one of the methods of creating a customer is to create a product that people didn't know they were missing, but now believe they need.

Given that, what do law-abiding citizens do when something becomes illegal?  They stop buying it (for the most part).  The economy goes down. Fewer jobs.  Other unintended consequences creep in and we have worse problems than the purported social benefit.  That is why social engineering through taxation and legislation simply doesn't work.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I agree. If the goal is to get people to drink less sod, then education is the key. If you educate them and they still choose to drink soda, then you need to accept their choice.  Can you imagine if we tried to tax everything that people do that is harmful or potentially harmful to themselves? 

On the other hand, I agree with MoE, because that has to do with the environment that we all share. If people want to hurt their own body, that is their business. But hurting the environment effects everyone.

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10 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Can we trade soda bans for a nation wide ban on plastic straws?

I dunno.  Reusable straws, I’ve read, are sanitation nightmares. 

I know straws are an issue globally—Great Pacific Garbage Patch and whatnot—but my understanding is that most of that is due to bad waste management practices in the Far East.  To what degree are *American* straws really part of the problem?

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 most of that is due to bad waste management practices in the Far East.  

Yup. And environmentalists ignore this because they don't want to seem racist or bigoted. It's the same way of thinking that makes some American feminists (some, not all. Some) ignore Islamic mistreatment of women. They don't want to be seen as anti-Islamic. 

If you take feminism and environmentalism seriously, you need to ask yourself some tough questions. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I dunno.  Reusable straws, I’ve read, are sanitation nightmares. 

They don't have to be.  I don't use straws, but my friend and her family do.  She uses resuable straws and she has a brush (that came with the straws) to clean them...zip, zip it's done.  Not a big deal. 

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11 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

So what are you're thoughts on the history of alcoholic beverages in Utah over the past 50 years?  Successful, unsuccessful, or something else?

Apparently more successful than English classes. 

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21 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Can we trade soda bans for a nation wide ban on plastic straws?

Oh, and nationwide 5-10 cent deposits on all recyclable drink containers?

Just as soon as the Church assigns everyone to the building closest to them. 

If Jesus hates the environment so much that he wants minivans driving extra miles, just who do you think you are to reduce waste? 

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12 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I dunno.  Reusable straws, I’ve read, are sanitation nightmares. 

I know straws are an issue globally—Great Pacific Garbage Patch and whatnot—but my understanding is that most of that is due to bad waste management practices in the Far East.  To what degree are *American* straws really part of the problem?

I wonder how people ingested fluids before straws.

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53 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Just as soon as the Church assigns everyone to the building closest to them. 

If Jesus hates the environment so much that he wants minivans driving extra miles, just who do you think you are to reduce waste? 

Hey, I'm all for getting rid of minivans. And churches too.  Let's do everything online.

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Guest Mores
13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

So what are you're thoughts on the history of alcoholic beverages in Utah over the past 50 years?  Successful, unsuccessful, or something else?

A culture shaped by a religion that prohibits alcohol consumption has low alcohol consumption?  Wow!  Go figure.

There is a difference between religions socially engineering through gentle persuasion vs. a govt. trying to enforce it through taxation.

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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

I wonder how people ingested fluids before straws.

Well, hang on a sec.  First we’re told “you’re causing an environmental catastrophe; you must quit using straws!”, and I point out that the catastrophe is apparently coming from Chinese straws, not American ones; and the only reply is “well, you don’t need straws, anyways”?

When a discussion plays out in this way, it sort of makes paranoid, crunchy conservatives (like me) wonder whether the environment isn’t just a pretext for people who are predisposed to get their kicks and goggles by making other folks obey a bunch of rules that are, in fact, more or less arbitrary.  

If my straws are out floating in the middle of the Pacific, show me how they’re winding up there and not in a landfill in Lindon, Utah with the rest of my trash.  And if it’s just a matter of being wasteful generally—shouldn’t we be starting with all those Hollywood types with their multiple houses on different continents (which they are perpetually renovating) and their jetting themselves off to various social events at which they give themselves awards for being environmentally conscious?  

As Professor Glenn Reynolds says, I’ll believe it’s a crisis when the people telling me it’s a crisis start living like it’s a crisis.  Otherwise, this sort of environmentalism is just a modified feudalistic ideology that keeps the hoi polloi from getting uppity (your family doesn’t NEED that second car!) whilst exalting the elite (my private jet takes me to Cannes every year, where I give a thirty-second talk that saves rainforests and teach ladies of the night about safe copulation practices!)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, hang on a sec.  First we’re told “you’re causing an environmental catastrophe; you must quit using straws!”, and I point out that the catastrophe is apparently coming from Chinese straws, not American ones; and the only reply is “well, you don’t need straws, anyways”?

When a discussion plays out in this way, it sort of makes paranoid, crunchy conservatives (like me) wonder whether the environment isn’t just a pretext for people who are predisposed to get their kicks and goggles by making other folks obey a bunch of rules that are, in fact, more or less arbitrary.  

If my straws are out floating in the middle of the Pacific, show me how they’re winding up there and not in a landfill in Lindon, Utah with the rest of my trash.  And if it’s just a matter of being wasteful generally—shouldn’t we be starting with all those Hollywood types with their multiple houses on different continents (which they are perpetually renovating) and their jetting themselves off to various social events at which they give themselves awards for being environmentally conscious?  

As Professor Glenn Reynolds says, I’ll believe it’s a crisis when the people telling me it’s a crisis start living like it’s a crisis.  Otherwise, this sort of environmentalism is just a modified feudalistic ideology that keeps the hoi polloi from getting uppity (your family doesn’t NEED that second car!) whilst exalting the elite (my private jet takes me to Cannes every year, where I give a thirty-second talk that saves rainforests!)

I should have edited your quote.  I was responding to the hygiene concern.

With regards to your concerns about Chinese straws vs. American straws vs. what actually ends up in the oceans, my honest response is, "who cares? Why should any of that matter when we could be leaders on the issue?  Where is all of that American Exceptionalism?" 

We're not really leaders, though.  Mexico has done some great work with eliminating plastic straws, especially in resort areas. We're actually falling behind, and in time it may no longer be a discussion of American straws vs. Chinese straws, but that the Americans and the Chinese are the only civilizations barbaric enough to keep using the monstrosities. :)

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On 5/20/2019 at 6:38 AM, Mores said:

By now, I'm sure many have heard of the "Soda Tax" in Philidelphia.  We all know that the tax was really an effort to obtain more tax revenue.  But it was sold to the people as a means of "encouraging people to make more healthy drink choices."  Now that it has been implemented for over a year, we have now seen an unintended consequence that any first year free market economist predicted.

Soda sales dropped by 50% in the city limits.  But neighboring cities had a boost in soda sales.  IOW, the citizens of Philidelphia chose to go outside the city limits to buy their soda to avoid the tax.  Well, DUH-UH!

It's interesting to watch how many other ways stuff like this is expressed.

Colorado legalizing marijuana resulted in an influx of cartels setting up shop here - it's easier access and shorter distribution lines across state lines, rather than over the border.  

Orlando Florida back in the '80's had a widely-publicized problem of serial rapes, and there was an equally widely-publicized "take back the streets" event where crowds of women showed up in a park, many of them openly armed, talking about laws of self-defense and justifiable homicide and all that.  In the months that followed, Orlando rapes dropped, rapes in neighboring communities rose. 

 

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10 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I should have edited your quote.  I was responding to the hygiene concern.With regards to your concerns about Chinese straws vs. American straws vs. what actually ends up in the oceans, my honest response is, "who cares? Why should any of that matter when we could be leaders on the issue?  Where is all of that American Exceptionalism?" 

 

Why should we care???  Because if you want us to be a "Leader" and solve problems... the very first step is to understand the problem and it cause

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Guest Mores
5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's interesting to watch how many other ways stuff like this is expressed.

Colorado legalizing marijuana resulted in an influx of cartels setting up shop here - it's easier access and shorter distribution lines across state lines, rather than over the border. 

Makes sense.

5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Orlando Florida back in the '80's had a widely-publicized problem of serial rapes, and there was an equally widely-publicized "take back the streets" event where crowds of women showed up in a park, many of them openly armed, talking about laws of self-defense and justifiable homicide and all that.  In the months that followed, Orlando rapes dropped, rapes in neighboring communities rose. 

That would certainly be a good argument for the 2nd Amendment.

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39 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I should have edited your quote.  I was responding to the hygiene concern.

With regards to your concerns about Chinese straws vs. American straws vs. what actually ends up in the oceans, my honest response is, "who cares? Why should any of that matter when we could be leaders on the issue?  Where is all of that American Exceptionalism?" 

We're not really leaders, though.  Mexico has done some great work with eliminating plastic straws, especially in resort areas. We're actually falling behind, and in time it may no longer be a discussion of American straws vs. Chinese straws, but that the Americans and the Chinese are the only civilizations barbaric enough to keep using the monstrosities. :)

That’s fair; but do we need to be Number One in meaningless, token gestures of virtue that don’t solve the problem; or in responding lemming-like to crises that aren’t crises? Vis a vis straws, wherein lies the crisis that we, as Americans, are supposed to be responding to? 

—The crisis is the Great Pacific Garbage patch. 

—If it’s CO2 emissions—my footprint, with or without straws, is several hundred times less than most of the elitist jokers who think I (but not they) should live like this:

tenementfamilyphoto.jpg

 To those folks I think it’s fair to say:  you, first.

—If it’s misuse of petroleum restricted to make plastic:  all the straws I use in a year don’t have as much mass as one plastic picture frame; and I’ve (well, Just_A_Girl, really) got dozens of those in my home.  Why don’t we ban plastic picture frames?  Heck, now that everything’s digital, why don’t we ban photographs, and scrapbooking?  Because, however did people remember their loved ones before photographs? ;) 

Again—if it’s really causing a crisis, and there are proportional and logically consistent ways that I can help with it—great.  But when it’s just a bunch of do-gooders saying “it really doesn’t matter whether you’re harming anyone or not; the fact is simply that YOU don't need THAT”—most of us spent most of kindergarten dealing with these puffed up, power-tripping princelings; and I’m not particularly eager to kiss the rings of, and subject the minutiae of my own and my family's lives to a bunch of jumped-up latter-day lunch line monitors (“Oh my gorsh.  Your toe is a whole QUARTER INCH off the line.  You’re reported.  Teacher!  TEEEEEEA-CHER!!!!”)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

NIMBYism at it's finest.

Way to miss the point and be insulting all at the same time...

If your goal is to reduce the number of straws in the Great Pacific Garbage patch... then you need to find out where those straws are coming from.

If those straws are coming from @Just_A_Guy throwing his straws away in Lindon UT.  Then taking @Just_A_Guy straws away is a good idea and we can also work on stopping the migration of straws from Lindon to the Pacific.

If however the straws are coming from bad garbage practices in the Far East...  They we waste our time trying to stop @Just_A_Guy from using straws because it does nothing to solve the stated problem...

A good leader learns what causes a problem and then works to fix the problem.  This is what America needs to be... A poor leader "does something" just to say they have "done something" and accomplish leaders this is what America currently has... And con men and huskers lead people into giving them money for empty promises This is how many of the Crisis experts come across as.

 

Edited by estradling75
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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

That’s fair; but do we need to be Number One in meaningless, token gestures of virtue that don’t solve the problem; or in responding lemming-like to crises that aren’t crises? Vis a vis straws, wherein lies the crisis that we, as Americans, are supposed to be responding to? 

—The crisis is the Great Pacific Garbage patch. 

—If it’s CO2 emissions—my footprint, with or without straws, is several hundred times less than most of the elitist jokers who think I (but not they) should live like this:

tenementfamilyphoto.jpg

 To those folks I think it’s fair to say:  you, first.

—If it’s misuse of petroleum restricted to make plastic:  all the straws I use in a year don’t have as much mass as one plastic picture frame; and I’ve (well, Just_A_Girl, really) got dozens of those in my home.  Why don’t we ban plastic picture frames?  Heck, now that everything’s digital, why don’t we ban photographs, and scrapbooking?  Because, however did people remember their loved ones before photographs? ;) 

Again—if it’s really causing a crisis, and there are proportional and logically consistent ways that I can help with it—great.  But when it’s just a bunch of do-gooders saying “it really doesn’t matter whether you’re harming anyone or not; the fact is simply that YOU don't need THAT”—most of us spent most of kindergarten dealing with these puffed up, power-tripping princelings; and I’m not particularly eager to kiss the rings of, and subject the minutiae of my own and my family's lives to a bunch of jumped-up latter-day lunch line monitors (“Oh my gorsh.  Your toe is a whole QUARTER INCH off the line.  You’re reported.  Teacher!  TEEEEEEA-CHER!!!!”)

Well, for Mexico, I know the concern was less about the garbage patch and more about the damage to the local coral reefs. 

But yes, small acts can add up to large effects. And they can be worthwhile pursuits. But the argument, "the impact from small changes to my lifestyle won't be large enough to justify my personal inconvenience" don't get much sympathy from me. (Although I do empathize, because it's precisely the reason I hypocritically still drive a car to work).

And for what it's worth, yes, let's ban scrapbooking. If only because I want to see what kind of people show up at the protests.

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46 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Way to miss the point and be insulting all at the same time...

If your goal is to reduce the number of straws in the Great Pacific Garbage patch... then you need to find out where those straws are coming from.

If those straws are coming from @Just_A_Guy throwing his straws away in Lindon UT.  Then taking @Just_A_Guy straws away is a good idea and we can also work on stopping the migration of straws from Lindon to the Pacific.

If however the straws are coming from bad garbage practices in the Far East...  They we waste our time trying to stop @Just_A_Guy from using straws because it does nothing to solve the stated problem...

A good leader learns what causes a problem and then works to fix the problem.  This is what America needs to be... A poor leader "does something" just to say they have "done something" and accomplish leaders this is what America currently has... And con men and huskers lead people into giving them money for empty promises This is how many of the Crisis experts come across as.

 

Well, if we really want to get to the root of the problem, it is happening because people are throwing straws in the garbage.  I vote we just eliminate all people who throw straws in the garbage.  Problem solved.

But hey, if you value your own conveniences more than you do the environment, then more power to your stewardship of the earth, I guess.

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

 

But hey, if you value your own conveniences more than you do the environment, then more power to your stewardship of the earth, I guess.

If all you are going to do is insult and twist the meanings of people who are trying to have a discussion with you I see no point in continuing

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7 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Well, for Mexico, I know the concern was less about the garbage patch and more about the damage to the local coral reefs. 

But yes, small acts can add up to large effects. And they can be worthwhile pursuits. But the argument, "the impact from small changes to my lifestyle won't be large enough to justify my personal inconvenience" don't get much sympathy from me. (Although I do empathize, because it's precisely the reason I hypocritically still drive a car to work).

And for what it's worth, yes, let's ban scrapbooking. If only because I want to see what kind of people show up at the protests.

I laughed, just for your last paragraph.  But I think you’ll need to come to Utah to witness the full force of those protests first-hand.  You don’t get between those Utah Mormon housewives and their scrapbooking—someone’s liable to get hurt!  :D 

As for the rest . . . Color me unconvinced, until you can show that I’m actually causing the problem.  Good on the Mexicans for protecting their coral reefs; but I’m still not sure what corporate or natural process is carrying my drinking straws from Utah Valley to Cabo San Lucas. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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