LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 So I know that the law of consecration is something that is something that we covenant in the temple to keep along with the law of obedience and law of sacrifice... and I believe that in some ways they are kept... and yet I feel like as a whole we are still so far from living the full law. I have recently read Approaching Zion by Hugh Nibley and he very clearly describes how we should be living if we want to be creating a zion-like society in the present. Basically we are all in one degree or another keeping one foot in Babylon (the world) and one in Zion. It is very difficult for us to literally give up all that we have and follow Christ. Give up all that we have and give it to the poor. D&C 49 19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. 20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. At what point do we as members of the church, of our own free will, go to the bishop and say "I want to give the the Lord (through the church) everything I have with the promise that my needs will be met."? From what I understand, either we choose willingly to live this law to the fullest or D&C 105: 5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. 6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer. I would prefer to not suffer if possible through my own faithfulness and preparation. Besides, the blessings from it can't be measured. I would love it if making money to make a living wasn't such a daily focus. I would love to still work hard for my needs but be able to stimulate my mind with the remaining time. Gaining knowledge (of eternal truths) is what saves us and helps us become like God. NeuroTypical, Anddenex and JohnsonJones 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 11 minutes ago, LineUponLine said: At what point do we as members of the church, of our own free will, go to the bishop and say "I want to give the the Lord (through the church) everything I have with the promise that my needs will be met."? Never. We do not go to the bishop and demand to be included in a united order. If a united order or orders is/are to be established, it/they will be done from the top down. By the way, we are under obligation to live the law of consecration right now. We have made our covenants, and those covenants never said "at some point in the future". If we take our covenants seriously, we will live the law of consecration right now, today, this instant. Tithing is the beginning or entranceway into living that law, but it's only a beginning. Consecration takes us far deeper than mere tithing. If we are striving to live the law of consecration as we should, then when the bishop invites us to join a united order or any other expression of the law of consecration, it will be natural for us, like moving back home. If we covet our own goods and do not live the law of consecration as we have covenanted, then we will likely not be invited to take the next step, and if we are we will surely refuse the offer, or regret it if we do not. The law of consecration is ultimately a celestial law, and only celestial beings can abide joyfully in such a law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 I'm not expecting something like the United Order but clearly there is a vast separation between the rich and the poor even among church members. When I see very wealthy members and their mansions, boats, toys, etc... and then see others who are in severe debt or have literally nothing... it makes me wonder when the law of consecration will be lived to the fullest to the point where there will be no more poor among us (at least in the church). I don't expect the poor to be idle and live off the wealthy, everyone needs to be a productive member of society, but I do think that the Lord blesses people with wealth to see how they will use it for the benefit of others. I don't feel like the resources that are available are being used to create the Zion like society. The average household income in the U.S. as of 2014 was $73,298. If that average was applied to everyone, that would be plenty for any household to afford all needs and even plenty of wants. Obviously appropriate use of the funds needs to be used wisely... even a multimillionaire can go into debt from greed. Once all basic needs are met of food, raiment, shelter, etc... then a society working towards living celestial law becomes incredibly productive and intelligent. Way too much time and effort is being spent by the poor trying to make ends meet when the wealthy could quickly close those gaps. Additionally, when everyone is equal in all things, all of a sudden comparisons and competition are a thing of the past. This then lowers anxiety, depression, and other issues. Obviously this is not going to be fully realistic until the millenium, however we are supposed to be preparing ourselves to receive Christ at the second coming. We are not ready in our current materialistic mindset to receive him and live the celestial law that he would expect from the kingdom of god on earth. Anddenex and JohnsonJones 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 @LineUponLine I would point out that the United Order is not the Law of Consecration but was intended to help teach the law. There are two parts to the Law of Consecration. One is that we give of our surplus. The other is that we are given according to our needs and abilities. My understanding is that money is not given to the poor but that the poor are provided assistance. The operative word is assistance. It is also the Law of Heaven that those that refuse to labor are not to eat the same as the laborer. Industry is the central part of the Law of Consecration. That we work and labor for the kingdom of G-d. There are times of great need that the Saints of G-d are called upon to assist those in need but it has never been the intent of G-d to create Zion as a welfare state or a socialism as a governing economic system. It has always been the intent that in Zion all shall labor for the benefit of Zion and that idleness is to be done away with. And so each family is to be established upon principles of industry and labor. What is needed to maximise and enhance our industry should be invested from the increases we receive from our labor and our surplus donated to helping the poor. Currently we give our surplus according to our covenant of the Law of Consecration in the form of "Fast Offerings". In addition we can also provide for the humanitarian fund, the missionary fund and the the perpetual education fund. There is one last point in living the law of consecration - that is that we meet once a year with our bishop and review our tithing and donations to various funds. At that time we are to console wit the bishop for various needs and where we should donate our surplus for the next year and then covenant with the L-rd to so invest our surplus. I submit that there are among us Saints currently living the covenant and Law of Consecration. The Traveler Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 I think what is bothering me is how much surplus there is but not being given (I know there are some very generous individuals). We are not to be commanded in all things and I know that the donations to the church and the poor are between ourselves and the Lord, but I feel like the brethren could clarify what "surplus" is. There is too much of a separation between the rich and the poor and a major change needs to happen to close that gap. When I see a single individual or couple living in a massive mansion (albeit through their hard work) and then other (hardworking) families in severe debt and meager circumstances, to me it seems like something is missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, LineUponLine said: At what point do we as members of the church, of our own free will, go to the bishop and say "I want to give the the Lord (through the church) everything I have with the promise that my needs will be met."? How about, when I got my living-ordinance recommend to be sealed to my wife? I don’t know about other folks, but I already live the law of consecration—with my wife and six kiddies. Granted, I went into that arrangement thinking more about what I’d give than what I’d get (or the come-down my undeserving fiancée would get when she had to give up the independence and self-sufficiency which were clearly someone else’s birthright). But I imagine that if I’d gone into the arrangement with either of the latter two attitudes, I wouldn’t have been spiritually ready to enter into a consecrated order at all. We have recently had some interesting conversations here about how it’s no one’s business how many children a sealed couple brings into their own miniature United Order. Why, then, is it suddenly everybody’s business if a Mormon family declines to sell itself into a pseudo-United Order built, of necessity, upon Telestial principles? Edited May 24, 2019 by Just_A_Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 “A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.” Joseph Smith We start with our own individual earthly family, but that then moves on to our heavenly family. Loving our neighbor, being a part of a ward family, a stake family... Will we be able to survive the last days very well if we only focus on our own immediate family? It starts there, but should expand when time and resources are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, LineUponLine said: “A man filled with the love of God, is not content with blessing his family alone, but ranges through the whole world, anxious to bless the whole human race.” Joseph Smith We start with our own individual earthly family, but that then moves on to our heavenly family. Loving our neighbor, being a part of a ward family, a stake family... Will we be able to survive the last days very well if we only focus on our own immediate family? It starts there, but should expand when time and resources are available. I think there are a couple of issues here. —First, you quite missed my point. A critical means of blessing the whole human race, is by bringing more of those humans to earth. If, as many self-proclaimed would-be consecrationists would have me believe, the Church has no right to tell me what an appropriate family size is; how can they nevertheless demand that the Church presume to tell me what an appropriate definition of fiscal “surplus” is? —Second, vis a vis the Joseph Smith quote—you seem to assume that a person not living the United Order outside her own family sphere, is not finding ways of blessing people outside her own immediate family. What, I wonder, do you make of the fact that Joseph Smith lived in one of the the most opulent homes in Nauvoo? —And third, as a general proposition you seem to conflate “loving” or “blessing”, with “giving lots of free stuff to”. Anddenex, The Folk Prophet and Midwest LDS 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 2 hours ago, LineUponLine said: I would love it if making money to make a living wasn't such a daily focus. I would love to still work hard for my needs but be able to stimulate my mind with the remaining time. Gaining knowledge (of eternal truths) is what saves us and helps us become like God. Can you go into more detail here? Why cannot you achieve this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 The Lord doesn't expect us to be living in caves or shacks. He does want us to enjoy life and be successful. Joseph Smith had a wonderful home in Nauvoo through his hard labor but it put him in a position to constantly be helping. Obviously fiscal surplus is on an individual basis, but if a family of say 6 can live on wages of say $50,000 per year and have all needs (and occasional wants met) then the family of 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 who make $100,000+ definitely have a lot of surplus. They might say otherwise because they have become accustomed to a more expensive lifestyle. All I am saying is what the Lord said D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. A key part of the definition of Zion is that they are all equal and there is no poor among them. I'm not saying wealthy individuals are "giving lots of free stuff" for others to go out and buy materialistic wants. The law of consecration collects the surplus so that those who are in need due to debt, unexpected circumstances, lack of resources, etc. can be assisted and it is given out proportionate to and individual family's need. Obviously a larger family will have a few more needs than a smaller one. Some families may deal with health issues that require more assistance. I'm just saying there is way more surplus available that could help close the gap between the rich and the poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 If Christ (or the Prophet) asked of us today the same as was asked of the young rich man, sell all that you have and give to the poor, how many would be able to do it with a willing heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 10 minutes ago, mikbone said: Can you go into more detail here? Why cannot you achieve this? @mikbone I'm not saying I can't or i'm not, but the need to meet temporal needs (and the anxiety it creates) takes up more time and energy that I would prefer to dedicate to spiritual/enlightening things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 For the Lord there is no such thing as a physical or temporal command or blessing... all things are spiritual. Sadly many of us only see the physical and not the spiritual sides of thing. In the Law of Consecration many will have to do things that are highly temporal to support themselves and others... Unless they can learn to see the spiritual in their efforts to meet the temporal needs they will fail to truly consecrate and miss the joy that is promised... Take the following example... a group of stone masons are hard at work... You ask few of them what they are doing.. and you get the following responses. "I'm cutting stone." "I'm earning money to support my family." "I'm helping build a temple of God." Each of them was doing exactly the same work yet they were clearly getting different spiritual experience. One day the Lord will command another "United Order" Until then all of those of us who are under covenant to live the Law of Consecration need to be working on changing our hearts, minds, thoughts (Or as President Nelson said in this last conference "Repent") on how we view and approach the labor God has given us to perform each and every day. Anddenex, Vort, Just_A_Guy and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 9 hours ago, LineUponLine said: The average household income in the U.S. as of 2014 was $73,298. Just an aside here, but no it wasn't. It was $55.6k. In 2017 it was $59k. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N The Folk Prophet and Just_A_Guy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 8 hours ago, LineUponLine said: I think what is bothering me is how much surplus there is but not being given (I know there are some very generous individuals). I hear you brother. It's always easier to focus on someone else's sins than our own. So much easier to point a finger at them, rather than us. You've mentioned that the whole "thou shalt eat bread by the sweat of thy brow" stuff takes up time you would prefer to dedicate to spiritual/enlightening things. There are lots of suggestions for that, but if I may, I'd like to suggest something else. Whenever you find yourself being bothered by how other people do things, maybe stop doing that, and instead dedicate that time to spiritual/enlightening things. Just_A_Guy, mikbone and Midwest LDS 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: Just an aside here, but no it wasn't. It was $55.6k. In 2017 it was $59k. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household-income-000.aspx But we are a worldwide church not just the USA. So we should be listing worldwide income. Which is under 10K per household. According to this data, ever American (even those who live off the dole) are filthy rich. If I were to convince one of my associates to declare me disabled (which I could easily do). I would qualify for SSDI of $2491 a month! That would be more than double the worldwide household income. Then I could quit my orthopaedic practice, abandon my patients and spend all my time and effort on social, emotional, and spiritual enlightenment. I see the light! Edited May 24, 2019 by mikbone The Folk Prophet, NeuroTypical and Midwest LDS 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 9 hours ago, LineUponLine said: I'm not expecting something like the United Order but clearly there is a vast separation between the rich and the poor even among church members. When I see very wealthy members and their mansions, boats, toys, etc... and then see others who are in severe debt or have literally nothing... When you get rich (or if you already are), then what's stopping you from buying your poor neighbor a boat? 9 hours ago, LineUponLine said: it makes me wonder when the law of consecration will be lived to the fullest to the point where there will be no more poor among us (at least in the church). Just out of curiosity, does your idea of "poor" equate to not owning mansions, boats, and toys? Is your plan that everyone has mansions, boats, and toys, or no one does? 10 hours ago, LineUponLine said: I don't expect the poor to be idle and live off the wealthy, everyone needs to be a productive member of society, but I do think that the Lord blesses people with wealth to see how they will use it for the benefit of others. I don't feel like the resources that are available are being used to create the Zion like society. It's easy to sit in judgement of our fellow man, isn't it? Now before you get huffy at that, please note that I'm including myself. My nephew married the daughter of a wealthy man. I mean hundreds of millions wealthy. They have ridiculous houses with fancy pools and bowling alleys and full sized indoor basketball courts and showers with 32 shower heads raining down from every angle, boats, toys, etc., etc. And I do, very naturally, find myself critical of them. The best I can do in response, and the ONLY thing I should do in response is to be the kind of man that I feel I should be. So if I get rich, what will I do with my money? That is the only consideration, really. 10 hours ago, LineUponLine said: The average household income in the U.S. as of 2014 was $73,298. No way. 10 hours ago, LineUponLine said: Once all basic needs are met of food, raiment, shelter, etc... then a society working towards living celestial law becomes incredibly productive and intelligent. Not when it's filled with people who are overly concerned and critical of their neighbor because he has a boat. 10 hours ago, LineUponLine said: Way too much time and effort is being spent by the poor trying to make ends meet when the wealthy could quickly close those gaps. You've heard the saying about giving a man a fish, right? 10 hours ago, LineUponLine said: Additionally, when everyone is equal in all things, all of a sudden comparisons and competition are a thing of the past. The experience the church had with The United Order proves this false. The United Order failed because these things were not "past". Being one is not about merely sharing temporal goods. The one in spirit has to come first or the temporal equality will fail. 10 hours ago, LineUponLine said: We are not ready in our current materialistic mindset to receive him and live the celestial law that he would expect from the kingdom of god on earth. Some of "we" aren't. Are you certain that none of "we" are. And who is "we" anyhow? Why don't you worry about yourself and leave God's judgment of who and who isn't "ready" for any given thing to God. Just_A_Guy, Vort and Midwest LDS 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: You've mentioned that the whole "thou shalt eat bread by the sweat of thy brow" stuff takes up time you would prefer to dedicate to spiritual/enlightening things. I find that to be a fundamentally flawed thought. In the scriptures Joseph was told by God that he would have not strength in Temporal matters (D&C 24:9) He was a hard worker but he just would not prevail in that area because God wanted him focused on other things. So he was supported by the membership of the church. Or in other words people like me and @NeuroTypical and @LineUponLine had to work hard temporally to support not only ourselves but also the prophet. If we were in the United Order that would be part and partial of our Calling, that is a Fundamental aspect of Consecration. Thus our temporal labors become a fundamental part of building up the Kingdom of God... If we can not gain spiritual growth and enlightenment from that... well we are going to fail. (And that is what happened historically) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, LineUponLine said: then the family of 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 who make $100,000+ definitely have a lot of surplus. They might say otherwise because they have become accustomed to a more expensive lifestyle. You're treating a six-figure income like people did in the 80s...when that was the "good life". It's just not that way any longer. A basic starter home in Utah now-a-days runs around $300k. The so-called normal family homes in normal neighborhoods can push half a million. Edited May 24, 2019 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 (edited) @LineUponLine When it comes to riches I learned more from the home I was raised in. My father who was very wealthy never bought a new car and usually was seen in public wearing overalls. I listened as many came to my father for advice. So I will quote my father - he said that he could teach anyone to be wealthy in 5 minutes - it was easy. In fact he said that the principles of wealth are more certain than the principles of poverty. He would say that the first principle of wealth is love and service. He taught that if we love others we will labor in service and we will love doing things that benefit and teach others and we will do it longer, harder and with joy than those that do no love and commit to service. He would say that we should be willing not just to work hard but to love and enjoy doing it. He would say it is not natural to love to work - one must learn and cultivate a love of work and service. Like the principles of truth in the gospel we must first learn to be an example and able to show others before we can teach anything. In essence, true poverty is not being short of money but short of work and service to do. By the same token true wealth is not the possession of money but facing each day determined to do more that what time will allow. I will say it again - no one is helped by giving them money. No one!!! The greatest wealth that can be given is the knowledge that a person is and the opportunity for themself to be the greatest asset and that their contribution is the greatest single factor in their honor, agency, worth, liberty and success. The first principle of wealth is not work or even hard work but the love and shere joy of hard work. The second principle of wealth is easier than the first and requires no effort whatsoever. It is to spend less than you earn. My father would tell people there is no happiness in debt. There is no joy or satisfaction in debt and regardless of what you or anyone else does - you will not find joy or happiness being in debt. And regardless of how hard you work or what you receive as gifts or service from others - debt will destroy any possibility of joy and happiness. As long as someone is in debt they will be poor - even if they live in a mansion. Debt will also destroy one's love and passion for work and will always create jealousy and envy (even hate) of others. There are few things more evil and cruel than willingly accepting debt. The Traveler Edited May 24, 2019 by Traveler mikbone, NeuroTypical and mordorbund 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 59 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: Just an aside here, but no it wasn't. It was $55.6k. In 2017 it was $59k. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N Average and median are different Mean household incomeEdit Another common measurement of personal income is the mean household income. Unlike the median household income, which divides all households in two halves, the mean income is the average income earned by American households. In the case of mean income, the income of all households is divided by the number of all households.[25] The mean income is usually more affected by the relatively unequal distribution of income which tilts towards the top.[26] As a result, the mean tends to be higher than the median income, with the top earning households boosting it. Overall, the mean household income in the United States, according to the US Census Bureau 2014 Annual Social and Economic Supplement, was $72,641.[27] The US Census Bureau also provides a breakdown by self-identified ethnic groups as follows (as of March 2018): Mean household income by ethnicity[27] Ethnic category Mean household income Asian alone $114,105 White alone $89,632 Hispanic or Latino $68,319 Black $58,985 Mean vs. median household incomeEdit Median income is the amount which divides the income distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that amount, and half having income below that amount. Mean income (average) is the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group by the number of units in that group. The means and medians for households and families are based on all households and families. Means and medians for people are based on people 15 years old and over with income. — US Census Bureau, Frequently Asked Question, published by First Gov.[25] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LineUponLine Posted May 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 All I am saying is what the Lord said D&C 49:20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. A key part of the definition of Zion is that they are all equal and there is no poor among them. Can no one clarify this to me? I'm not saying hardwork is worthless and nothing is gained from it and I'm not saying the poor should be given boats and mansions. But imagine if the surplus wealth could pay off most if not all debt including mortgage debt. Imagine if the homeless never went hungry and were always clothed and were given the help they need to get on their feet to get a job and provide for themselves. Ever notice in the Book of Mormon that problems always started with riches? The wearing of costly apparel, class distinctions, etc. Has anyone read Hugh Nibley's book Approaching Zion? Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikbone Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 Ever Read Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged? NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 Remember: the Law of Consecration refers to MUCH more than just giving money. Heart, mind, and effort are actually a lot harder to give. mordorbund and Just_A_Guy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted May 24, 2019 Report Share Posted May 24, 2019 37 minutes ago, LineUponLine said: Has anyone read Hugh Nibley's book Approaching Zion? I've read parts of it, and plenty of his other essays and works. The guy certainly seemed unimpeachable when it came to talking about how to run personal finances. I remember also what he had to say about zeal and knowledge. They were both basically useless unless you had them both. Human history is full of instances where people tried to redistribute wealth in order to solve poverty. Since you're full of zeal to urge we give it another go, it would behoove you to fill yourself with knowledge of how those efforts all turned out. And also gain some knowledge about what US efforts to currently do such things, and how they're working. Have you ever volunteered a soup kitchen or food pantry? Good experience. Even better if you help out not just preparing food, but helping with the administration of the place. See what happens behind the scenes. Hear from the people who deal with poverty day in and day out, to learn what works and what doesn't. Perhaps others can suggest some books to read on economic programs like the New Deal or Carter's 90% tax rates. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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