Doesn't sit well with me


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2 hours ago, Mores said:

Absolutely right.  That's why I'm not in the camp of tax evasion or being a "sovereign citizen" etc.

I follow the letter of the law and that's it.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.

I somewhat agree but I wonder what your impressions is concerning the 12th article of Faith.  I personally have difficulty with the European concept of Royals and the being subject to "Kings" thing.  I have a great deal of difficulty with common British law being applied to our republic.  For example, I openly oppose that the IRS has assumed that all property is the property of the crown as the basis for the IRS seizing property without due recourse and then assuming guilt until a citizen proves otherwise.  BTW this is also why the IRS does not have to pay penalties for improperly seizing property or overstepping their legal bounds but we have to pay penalties if we do not pay a tax we do not understand we are liable. 

Actually I believe all taxes should be income taxes - this is because the government tends to hide taxes that we do not know about.  For example gasoline taxes and corporate taxes.  Few realize the taxes paid for packaged food at the grocery store (like bread, can goods milk or meat).  For each dollar a citizen spends (before local sales tax) – about 2 to 4 cents are for the raw product, about 12 cents is for advertising and the rest is divided almost 50, 50 between middle men and the federal government.  In some cases the federal government takes 50% or more of the total paid before local tax.  Organized crime uses this as a means to intercept taxes by controlling unions and wholesale distribution companies and cooking the books to keep collected taxes.  The amount taken by such endeavors is enough to pay off politicians and other government bureaucrats.  I have hear estimates that billions are lost this way.  

I also believe that every citizen should pay taxes on any moneys received – including welfare or other government subsidies.  It is also important to note that any person (especially non-citizens) can easily hide possible taxes on government subsidies or other incomes paid without a social security number (or without a valid social security number).  I personally believe that there are corrupt elements paying off politicians to allow billions to be improperly pilfered from hard earned citizen taxes.  In short I want an easy audit trail accounting for all funds collected for the government all the way through to where the funds are actually spent – and I believe such is the right of every citizen to know.  I also believe it should be law that government employees and elected officials reveal any benefits to them or any friend or relative because of actions associated with the government.

 

The Traveler

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On 5/31/2019 at 7:02 PM, mdfxdb said:

are general authorities required to live the law of consecration?  How can we really know how well off they are?  Our prophet was a cardiac surgeon.  Those guy's make $ almost without limit at the level he was practicing at.  What happened to it all?  Utchdorf likes his Breitling watches......  not cheap.

Pres. Monson was a lifetime church employee, I'm not surprised he had a modest home...

High-end watches are common for pilots. That’s probably why Utchdorf sports a Breitling.

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On 5/31/2019 at 7:02 PM, mdfxdb said:

Utchdorf likes his Breitling watches......  not cheap.

 

20 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

High-end watches are common for pilots. That’s probably why Utchdorf sports a Breitling.

 

It's not about high-end watches with pilots.  But rather, Pilot's Watches.  Similar to Diver's Watches.  They are watches designed specifically for Pilots and provides certain aviation functionality on their wrists independent of their cockpit computers.  Only a few brands carry aviation-specific watches that actually provide aviation functionality instead of just holding a world clock feature and call it a Pilot's Watch.  Breitling and IWC are, in my opinion, the best aviation functionality on the market even as they are not the most expensive.

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Guest Mores
On 5/31/2019 at 6:16 PM, Traveler said:

I somewhat agree but I wonder what your impressions is concerning the 12th article of Faith. 

I don't see how I'm violating it.  I said I would obey the letter of the law.

On 5/31/2019 at 6:16 PM, Traveler said:

this is because the government tends to hide taxes that we do not know about. 

The cure is NOT to encourage an immoral tax to replace them.  The cure is to mandate that all taxes be shown on all point of sale receipts.

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55 minutes ago, Mores said:

I don't see how I'm violating it.  I said I would obey the letter of the law.

Most likely I am in more violation than you - I have a lot of difficulty with the idea of "being subject" to civil authority even though I served in the military during Vietnam.  My mind set is that I will obey but that does not mean that I agree and if forced what actions I may consider and attempt.

Quote

The cure is NOT to encourage an immoral tax to replace them.  The cure is to mandate that all taxes be shown on all point of sale receipts.

I do not know how that is possible - for example, I own some rental property; so when someone pays rent - it would be an accounting nightmare if I was required to calculate to the penny how much of a monthly rent payment went to pay federal and local taxes - including FICA (and other income taxes as well as business taxes) for maintenance I paid for through companies providing services.  One may say that if everyone provided the tax information by mandate the problem is solved - but what if I heired your 14 year old to mow the lawn - how are you going to account for how much of what I paid your kid ended up being taxed?  And then what would happen if one of my renters sublet his contract?

Note - any business taxes must be covered by the cost of goods or services for that business to stay in business.   The reality is that it is impossible to tax fairly and the more tax someone owes the more incentive they have to find some way of not paying all or some of the tax.  This is why historically most taxes have been paid by the poor - one way or the other.  I wrestle with the fact that I work very hard to pay a little tax as possible and work in concert with experts that advise me.  Since our government operates in a deficit who will eventually pay for my carefully planned shortfall?

One point that I agree - taxes should be easy to calculate - and how much is collected should be open to the public.  Most middle class families are taxed about half of their earnings and most of the taxes they do not know they are paying.  But what is worse are the politicians that tell or imply things are provided and there is no reason to ascribe responsibility or actual costs - specifically to those that receive the benefit.

I am quite sure you will disagree but I side with Milton Friedman and the concept of negative income taxes for the poor, elderly and non workers.  That way everything received and paid out by the government can easily be accounted for (made public) and there is always some incentive for an individual to earn and be responsible for themself.  I also believe something similar to an negative income tax will be the economic structure during the millennium.   I do not believe a negative income tax is socialism.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Mores
11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not know how that is possible - for example, I own some rental property; so when someone pays rent - it would be an accounting nightmare if I was required to calculate to the penny how much of a monthly rent payment went to pay federal and local taxes - including FICA (and other income taxes as well as business taxes) for maintenance I paid for through companies providing services.  One may say that if everyone provided the tax information by mandate the problem is solved - but what if I heired your 14 year old to mow the lawn - how are you going to account for how much of what I paid your kid ended up being taxed?  And then what would happen if one of my renters sublet his contract?

You misunderstand how that happens in real life.

There are three different types of "sales".

  • Goods
  • Services
  • Rents

Currently services are not taxed with a sales tax. 
Rented items may be assessed a use tax (commonly referred to as a sales tax).
Most sold items are assessed a sales/use tax.

Real estate is a different animal.  And it is handled a different way too complex to get into there.  Most sales tax programs would ignore real estate transactions.

The amount shown would indicate YOUR charge and the GOVERNMENT charge separately.  The GOVERNMENT charge is only that portion that the government charges for the transaction itself.  All other govt charges are part of your costs, not sales tax.

Edited by Mores
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2 minutes ago, Mores said:

You misunderstand how that happens in real life.

There are three different types of "sales".

  • Goods
  • Services
  • Rents

Currently services are not taxed with a sales tax.  Rented items may be assessed a use tax (commonly referred to as a sales tax).

 

Actually I pay a lot of taxes on my rental properties - you can bet your life that I use the rent to cover those taxes.  Rent would be lower without taxes. My renters do indeed pay those taxes and have no idea how much or their rent is paying such hidden taxes.  Likewise when they purchase food and pay a less amount for food sales tax (in Utah) they have no idea beyond the "sales tax" what the government is taking a percentage.  When you purchase gas for your car - wouldn't you like to know what the price of gas is without any tax (not just the sales tax) but the tax to mine it, the tax to refine it and the tax to distribute it?  Would you be surprised if 60% of the cost gas. before any sales tax was already going into government coffers?   

My wife has a little side business and pays a inventory tax - many think wholesale is without any taxes because sales taxes are not paid until retail purchases.  Many businesses now operate on a supply chain concept of "just in time" to avoid as much as possible inventory tax - as an expert in material handling - someday "just in time" will cause shortages.   I honestly believe that governments should be very careful what they incentivize.  But they should also be transparent.   Not just what is going on but why.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Mores
51 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Actually I pay a lot of taxes on my rental properties - you can bet your life that I use the rent to cover those taxes.  Rent would be lower without taxes.

OK.  I'll try explaining it again.  Please open your mind to something that you haven't thought of yet.  Don't try shoving what I'm about to say into your already pre-conceived notion of hidden taxes.

Any sale at any level will have various government charges added.  If you follow that trail back to its origin, you'll find that there is no origin.  It is an endless loop. 

The intent, then, is NOT to calculate all the taxes at every level that went into the eventual product being brought to you.  Those are charged at each individual level.  And they are evaluated by the buyer at each individual level.

You could consider all the earlier tax assessments as a "hidden tax" because the next level doesn't know just how much was charged previously.  But to do so at at all levels will be mathematically impossible because of the endless loop.  So, the way you're looking at it, the only way to avoid a hidden tax is to have a capitation tax (which was the original model in the Constitution).

As a highly simplified model:

I can sell raw ore to a refinery.  At that point I will add on the government mandated sales tax.  The refinery will decide if they want to do business while they have to pay such outrageous taxes. They do so.  Then they refine it and sell ingots to a steel plant.  At that point, they charge another sales tax.  Then again and again until the steel shed you buy from a steel building supplier.  They charge you a sales tax as well.  You do not see all the sales taxes at each level.  You only see the last level.

Why is this acceptable?  Why are "hidden" taxes acceptable here?  Excellent question. 

The ideal purpose of the use tax is that it pays for government enforcement of contracts.  For every contract, there is a chance that one party or the other will not fulfill their end of the bargain.  So, the government is brought in to either enforce it, or levy penalties if it is not fulfilled.  They need a percentage of the sales price to cover the costs of doing so.  Who needs the guarantee?  The one dishing out the money.  If the item doesn't get delivered, he's the one who's out the money.  (Such a system would not have things like "SAC").  Also, the one buying it has to have his property protected from theft, vandalism, etc.  So the sales tax goes to fund police and other functions as well.

If the parties involved don't like the idea of paying the government for this protection, you have the option of going to the black market.  There you have to have other guarantees to ensure an equitable transaction.  They have costs too.  So, the black market is really the mechanism that will keep the sales tax rate honest.  (Note: I'm not encouraging the use of the black market.  It's simply the paradoxical reality).

So, the protection of the transaction is only between the two parties immediately involved in the transaction.  Thus the two parties need only know about the tax assessed at that level of the transaction.  That means it is honest to only disclose the tax at that level.  All other taxes at previous levels (from an accounting perspective) are appropriately categorized as a cost to the seller rather than a tax levied to the buyer.

Does that explain it?

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

 

It's not about high-end watches with pilots.  But rather, Pilot's Watches.  Similar to Diver's Watches.  They are watches designed specifically for Pilots and provides certain aviation functionality on their wrists independent of their cockpit computers.  Only a few brands carry aviation-specific watches that actually provide aviation functionality instead of just holding a world clock feature and call it a Pilot's Watch.  Breitling and IWC are, in my opinion, the best aviation functionality on the market even as they are not the most expensive.

Yes, well, that was sort of my point.

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13 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Yes, well, that was sort of my point.

It wasn't clear because you said, "high-end watches" which plays more to vanity than function.  Not all Pilot's Watches are "high-end" and most pilots buy "high-end" Brietlings not because they're "high-end" but because they are functional to a pilot.

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17 hours ago, Mores said:

OK.  I'll try explaining it again.  Please open your mind to something that you haven't thought of yet.  Don't try shoving what I'm about to say into your already pre-conceived notion of hidden taxes.

Any sale at any level will have various government charges added.  If you follow that trail back to its origin, you'll find that there is no origin.  It is an endless loop. 

The intent, then, is NOT to calculate all the taxes at every level that went into the eventual product being brought to you.  Those are charged at each individual level.  And they are evaluated by the buyer at each individual level.

You could consider all the earlier tax assessments as a "hidden tax" because the next level doesn't know just how much was charged previously.  But to do so at at all levels will be mathematically impossible because of the endless loop.  So, the way you're looking at it, the only way to avoid a hidden tax is to have a capitation tax (which was the original model in the Constitution).

As a highly simplified model:

I can sell raw ore to a refinery.  At that point I will add on the government mandated sales tax.  The refinery will decide if they want to do business while they have to pay such outrageous taxes. They do so.  Then they refine it and sell ingots to a steel plant.  At that point, they charge another sales tax.  Then again and again until the steel shed you buy from a steel building supplier.  They charge you a sales tax as well.  You do not see all the sales taxes at each level.  You only see the last level.

Why is this acceptable?  Why are "hidden" taxes acceptable here?  Excellent question. 

The ideal purpose of the use tax is that it pays for government enforcement of contracts.  For every contract, there is a chance that one party or the other will not fulfill their end of the bargain.  So, the government is brought in to either enforce it, or levy penalties if it is not fulfilled.  They need a percentage of the sales price to cover the costs of doing so.  Who needs the guarantee?  The one dishing out the money.  If the item doesn't get delivered, he's the one who's out the money.  (Such a system would not have things like "SAC").  Also, the one buying it has to have his property protected from theft, vandalism, etc.  So the sales tax goes to fund police and other functions as well.

If the parties involved don't like the idea of paying the government for this protection, you have the option of going to the black market.  There you have to have other guarantees to ensure an equitable transaction.  They have costs too.  So, the black market is really the mechanism that will keep the sales tax rate honest.  (Note: I'm not encouraging the use of the black market.  It's simply the paradoxical reality).

So, the protection of the transaction is only between the two parties immediately involved in the transaction.  Thus the two parties need only know about the tax assessed at that level of the transaction.  That means it is honest to only disclose the tax at that level.  All other taxes at previous levels (from an accounting perspective) are appropriately categorized as a cost to the seller rather than a tax levied to the buyer.

Does that explain it?

I am not sure it explains anything - it appears to be almost identical to what I am trying to put across - maybe even better said.

In my consulting I tell my clients "Knowledge is power".  That they cannot compete in the marketplace or improve or solve anything in their company that they cannot monitor, categorize and measure.   It is impossible to control what you do not know or have knowledge of; but worse - what you do not know or understand will control you.

I very much like the concept of citizens controlling government - but to be able to control their government they must have transparency and know what their government is doing.  If a government can hide form citizens how monies are obtained to run the government - then the citizens have lost control of that government.  I believe citizens should control their governments and the only way I can see that control maintained by citizens is through exclusive taxing of those citizens (with their full knowledge) of every penny that goes from the citizens to the government.  The only way I can see this happen is through the exclusive funding of government through accessing citizens directly.  For this; some suggest "use taxes" but I believe that is class intrusive and regressive.  I am personally more in favor of income and property taxes - and all citizens paying the same % tax on all their income and property.  And that government has no other funding.  And though it is no longer in effect - I did like the initial idea of our founding fathers that the federal government receive its funding from the state coffers. 

 

The Traveler

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Guest Mores
23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure it explains anything - it appears to be almost identical to what I am trying to put across - maybe even better said.

I'll explain it using your words, then.

23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

That they cannot compete in the marketplace or improve or solve anything in their company that they cannot monitor, categorize and measure.   It is impossible to control what you do not know or have knowledge of; but worse - what you do not know or understand will control you.

Do you have knowledge of all the conditions from Adam and Eve all the way to this day?  Then how can you control yourself?

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22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

It's not about high-end watches with pilots.  But rather, Pilot's Watches.  Similar to Diver's Watches.  They are watches designed specifically for Pilots and provides certain aviation functionality on their wrists independent of their cockpit computers.  Only a few brands carry aviation-specific watches that actually provide aviation functionality instead of just holding a world clock feature and call it a Pilot's Watch.  Breitling and IWC are, in my opinion, the best aviation functionality on the market even as they are not the most expensive.

When was the last time Uchdorf flew a plane? I'm willing to bet that he owns more than one Breitling. My point is that even our leaders like nice things, it may even plan to their vanity who knows, but who cares? If he wants to strap 7k to his wrist good for him.

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12 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

When was the last time Uchdorf flew a plane? I'm willing to bet that he owns more than one Breitling. My point is that even our leaders like nice things, it may even plan to their vanity who knows, but who cares? If he wants to strap 7k to his wrist good for him.

I wasn't talking about Uchdorf specifically.  I was simply commenting on Jedi_Nephite's claim that pilots have a thing for high-end watches.

In any case, it's different between Uchdorf and other LDS religious leaders buying vanity things versus other religious leaders buying vanity things because LDS religious leaders don't earn their money off of membership tithes.

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9 minutes ago, Mores said:

I'll explain it using your words, then.

Do you have knowledge of all the conditions from Adam and Eve all the way to this day?  Then how can you control yourself?

I can only control those things about myself that I have knowledge (understand).  What I do not understand controls that part of me.  But you do bring up a very interesting point that I think deserves more considerations - The point would be what we call faith and trust (which "can?" be based in some uncertainty).  And as I ponder this - perhaps we can ponder together.  What are your thoughts concerning what we trust and have faith in - does such faith and trust have power to dictate our responses or are we in control?  My initial thought is that the answer is not simple but complex and evolving as we try or test our faith and trust.

 

The Traveler

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I wasn't talking about Uchdorf specifically.  I was simply commenting on Jedi_Nephite's claim that pilots have a thing for high-end watches.

In any case, it's different between Uchdorf and other LDS religious leaders buying vanity things versus other religious leaders buying vanity things because LDS religious leaders don't earn their money off of membership tithes.

You and @omegaseamaster75 are having a very interesting exchange - but I would see where each of you want to further take it before I try to muddy the water with another opinion.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Mores
8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I can only control those things about myself that I have knowledge (understand). 

Yes, exactly.  YOU don't have part in the deal that the store owner makes with his supplier.  That's HIS deal with the supplier.  You don't have anything to do with that.

Anyone with average knowledge should know that there are charges from the beginning all the way to the point of final sale.  But to say that's all being "hidden" in a nefarious way would be to say that the Lord is being nefarious for placing the veil over our our minds.

All the deals that happen before YOU become a part of the deal is none of your business.

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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I wasn't talking about Uchdorf specifically.  I was simply commenting on Jedi_Nephite's claim that pilots have a thing for high-end watches.

In any case, it's different between Uchdorf and other LDS religious leaders buying vanity things versus other religious leaders buying vanity things because LDS religious leaders don't earn their money off of membership tithes.

Lots of people have a thing for high end watches. I guess my point is that many of our leaders have been very successful in their personal lives, as such they own/spend/do things that "average" people don't or can't.  Yet somehow when we see a general authority and they have a high end watch we think that they should not be subject to the trappings of vanity  (he only has a breitling because he was a pilot) or have items that are excessive in nature.  I know a GA who bought a golf club membership for 125k in 1995. 

We as a membership should not care what our leaders do with their personal funds yet somehow we do.

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7 minutes ago, Mores said:

Yes, exactly.  YOU don't have part in the deal that the store owner makes with his supplier.  That's HIS deal with the supplier.  You don't have anything to do with that.

Anyone with average knowledge should know that there are charges from the beginning all the way to the point of final sale.  But to say that's all being "hidden" in a nefarious way would be to say that the Lord is being nefarious for placing the veil over our our minds.

All the deals that happen before YOU become a part of the deal is none of your business.

I disagree and will use a most extreme example.  If part of HIS deal with the supplier is that the supplier murder the store owner's wife - then the idea that it is none of my business - does not fly with me - even though there are arguments for supposedly free people to not be involved (concerned).

 

The Traveler

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Guest Mores
4 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I disagree and will use a most extreme example.  If part of HIS deal with the supplier is that the supplier murder the store owner's wife - then it is not none of my business even though there are arguments for supposedly free people to not be involved (concerned).

Trying the red herring.  Well, let's make sure we know what we're talking about.

As a matter of commerce, no it is none of our business.  As a matter of morality, it is "society's" business.

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Our leaders do use a donated private jet from time to time, but they also fly commercial as well. 

The big difference is that our prophet does not live a life of luxury off the backs of the members. He lives in a apartment provided and owned by the church. He flies in a donated private jet and when he dies neither his wife or kids will inherit any of it. Besides that, he has his own money that he earned as a heart surgeon.

The reporter mentions that her two grandfathers were poor ministers who felt that being rich was immoral. I laughed out loud when he he was asked about when other preachers say it is wrong to be rich and he said, "their wrong." What a self righteous hypocrite and a viper. He even claims that the disciples in the bible would not have a problem with it and I thought, "Jesus might."

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22 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Lots of people have a thing for high end watches. I guess my point is that many of our leaders have been very successful in their personal lives, as such they own/spend/do things that "average" people don't or can't.  Yet somehow when we see a general authority and they have a high end watch we think that they should not be subject to the trappings of vanity  (he only has a breitling because he was a pilot) or have items that are excessive in nature.  I know a GA who bought a golf club membership for 125k in 1995. 

You quoted me.  I just want to be sure you don't think I subscribe to this thought process you mention.  Because, I didn't say Uchdorf only has a Breitling because he was a pilot.  

 

22 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

We as a membership should not care what our leaders do with their personal funds yet somehow we do.

Well, I don't.  And I don't really have this feel for the membership that they care what our leaders do with their personal funds.  At least not the membership I come in contact with.  And I'm fairly certain that is only because our leaders don't get their personal funds from tithes.  A lot of Catholics have a problem with the "riches" of the Vatican.  But that's because Catholic priests made a vow of poverty and live off of the people.

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Guest MormonGator

I think my big problem isn't that they are rich-no one is forcing you to donate money to these guys. It's that they give so little to people who actually need it. If you take in 20 billion dollars and spend 99% on your own organization than give 50$ to hurricane relief, that is a major, major problem. 

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Depends on what your organization does, and what the hurricane relief agency does.  There are a neverending tidal wave of crappy (or disingenuous, or outright evil) charities that accomplish little.

At least with my organization, you can be assured that companies who manufacture cheeze whiz and video games will have enough income to expand and employ more and more people.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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