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Princess3dward

More Than One God?

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Last year an investigator asked me if LDS believes that Heavenly Father was created by another God, and if He had rules to follow as well. My dad told me he was, but I don't know any references or facts on it.

Were there any other gods before God?

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Yes. He is unique however, in that He was eternally existent (like the Father and Holy Spirit) but took on humanity in the incarnation. The bodily Jesus that walked the Earth did not "come into existence" for the first time when he was born.

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asked me if LDS believes that Heavenly Father was created by another God, and if He had rules to follow as well.

It's possible, I suppose, but there is no doctrine to support this that has been revealed.

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I can't help get the feeling that official LDS doctrine is a lot closer to traditional Christianity than how LDS doctrine is often presented by many LDS people yet alone anti-mormon people.

My questions are given that: You have a process for exaltation, by which man may be become worthy of the glory of being a god. This involves the spirit child choosing embodiement and then choosing during that time to partake in the covenants that have been revealed to be glorified.

Is the official answer that you don't know whether the Father followed this path or not to being deified?

And since Jesus was God before his embodiement and the Holy Ghost has never had a physical body, would it be true that you appear to have no received official revelation that any of the persons who make up God (whether you use the term Godhead or God as tri-person-somehow-unitary-being) actually went through this process that you aspire to follow?

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That is EXACTICALLY what my dad said! That Heavenly Father did it, and Jesus did it, and now we are (kinda idea)..

huh? :dontknow:

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Pale and pam,

It is an honest question, I was just trying to understand? Sorry to have bored you to sleep!

I think one of the key differences between LDS and trad Christians, is that LDS view that man and God belong to the same class of beings, whereas non-LDS place God (ie Father, Son and Spirit) in a different class to all other beings.

For us God has glory intrinsically, whereas we can only reflect his glory by becoming like Him. We may possibly become capable of creating creature and worlds etc but that is beyond the scope of scriptures but we we will never be the equal in glory to God, as we are the reflection of the glory that was in Him.

Now LDS have a system that describes how we can become god-like, so the question whether God had to follow that same path or intrinsically had that glory is an important question to me.

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Pale and pam,

It is an honest question, I was just trying to understand? Sorry to have bored you to sleep!

I think one of the key differences between LDS and trad Christians, is that LDS view that man and God belong to the same class of beings, whereas non-LDS place God (ie Father, Son and Spirit) in a different class to all other beings.

For us God has glory intrinsically, whereas we can only reflect his glory by becoming like Him. We may possibly become capable of creating creature and worlds etc but that is beyond the scope of scriptures but we we will never be the equal in glory to God, as we are the reflection of the glory that was in Him.

Now LDS have a system that describes how we can become god-like, so the question whether God had to follow that same path or intrinsically had that glory is an important question to me.

eat some ice cream and chill....it wasn't even aimed at you..... :)

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OK,

My purpose in my questions was to demonstrate the Mormon paradigm. Mormons answer like this:

Is Jesus God? YES

Has He always existed? YES

Was His body created in the womb of His mother Mary by His Father? YES

I cannot speak for all Christians, but most I speak with would answer the same. Dr. T stated the LDS belief well, that Jesus is Eternal (He has always existed and always will) and He has Eternally been God and He came into this world and took upon Himself the human condition. This has been the LDS teaching from Joseph Smith to current, it has never even slightly moved. It is the founding principle of Mormonism, it is on the front page of the Book of Mormon. Jesus didn't progress from non-existance to existance, from ungodly to godly, from non-god to God. Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. He is the Great 'I Am'.

Mormons speak a lot about the pre-mortal existance of Jesus. However, we have only a faint understanding of it. Very little has been revealed, but we DO have scriptures that tell us that Jesus is Eternal and He has always existed. We know that He stood in the Grand Council before the world was, that He was presented in that Council as the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world, that He created the Heavens and the Earth, that it was He who spoke with the ancient prophets from Adam to Moses to Isaiah and to all.

Now, one COULD say that Jesus of Nazereth was created in the womb of Mary and born in Bethlehem. One could say that Jesus's body was created. However, Jesus the Spirit, the Eternal Being, was not created. His humble birth to Mary wasn't His beginning. He did NOT become God within his lifetime on earth, nor after His ascension, but He was always God, He was the God who created the earth.

So why is there all the fuss about Mormons believing in an infinite chain of Gods creating infinite children on infinite planets and raising them from non-God to God status? Frankly, that is but the crudest description of the Mormon teaching. There are some hints of truth to it, but it is much too vague to get any real picture.

Now more questions:

Is there any indication in the scriptures that this earth is the only planet God has ever or will ever create and place human beings upon?

Do we have any reason to believe the Creation in Genesis was the first work of God in all His Infinite Existance?

Is there some scriptural indication that the LORD will NOT create and work His Mighty Work infinitely throughout eternity?

-a-train

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I cannot speak for all Christians, but most I speak with would answer the same. Dr. T stated the LDS belief well, that Jesus is Eternal (He has always existed and always will) and He has Eternally been God and He came into this world and took upon Himself the human condition. This has been the LDS teaching from Joseph Smith to current, it has never even slightly moved. It is the founding principle of Mormonism, it is on the front page of the Book of Mormon. Jesus didn't progress from non-existance to existance, from ungodly to godly, from non-god to God. Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. He is the Great 'I Am'.

I was always told that he was out perfect bigger brother. That he was just like us in a way...

I was not taught that he was God, but that he spoke for God in the beginning of the bible.

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I was always told that he was out perfect bigger brother. That he was just like us in a way... I was not taught that he was God, but that he spoke for God in the beginning of the bible.

How much time would you say you have given to the study of this issue? Have you consulted the scriptures? The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith? Conference talks? As I said, the statement that Jesus is God is on the first page of the Book of Mormon. It isn't like a person needs to do some especially in depth study to see that.

Now I do not pretend to know how this concept could have escaped you. I cannot imagine your personal devotion to a study of the scriptures was anything less than total. Perhaps in your eagerness to measure every word, you overlooked this principle. Perhaps you knew a primary friend that knew they could ignore every word of class and answer every question with a single word: 'Jesus'. There is some truth to that. There is a reason for that.

Take a look at Mosiah 3. Verse 5 says: 'the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.'

Verse 8 says: 'he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.'

Verse 20-21 says: 'the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.'

Mosiah 5:15 calls the Saviour 'Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent'

What did Jesus say to the Nephites? 'Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.' (3 Nephi 11:14)

Or, check out Hymn 134 in the LDS Hymnal, I Believe in Christ. Verse 3 says: 'I believe in Christ- my Lord, my God!'

It is sad but true that there are many who live within the Church for decades and go through the motions without understanding some of the most basic and necessary principles of Mormonism. The notion that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God is THE founding principle of Mormonism.

-a-train

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Pale,

I had made the last substantive reply, so without any contrary indications I would presume that you reply would at least in part attach to mine. Given that we have had several days of 40C plus, maybe I do need that ice cream.

Desire,

Just to set the record straight traditional Christians also believe that Jesus is our perfect brother. To quote a popular chorus....

"Your my friend and you are my brother, even though you are a king"

a-train,

Initially to answer your questions...

We are given no information on whether or not God created life on other planets. My personal view is that given the size of the universe, and the laws of nature it is very likely that there is life on other planets. (I'm a big Lewis fan.)

Genesis is the story of God's interaction with mankind, it deals sparingly with any other topic that is outside that general story line. From my perspective it deals with the creation of this universe, not with any other universes which may exist outside the realms of the space-time continuum of this universe.

For us to understand eternity is like an ant attempting to read astro-physics. We are only told that it will be mind blowing but little more.

Now onto my thoughts...

Since we are not given the privelidge of knowing how any of the persons of God become deified, and we know how we are to become god-like doesn't that mark a distinction between man and God. Is it possible to be LDS and still hold that God is of another kind to man? I would be happy to use homoiousis to describe man and God but not homoousis. Just as I think the reverse to be true of the relationship between Jesus and the Father.

The dislike of the chain of gods idea is that it appears to me to reduce God to the locale holder of the "god" franchise. I think some anti-mormons protray that LDS as being keen to setup their own franchise.

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<div class='quotemain'>I was always told that he was out perfect bigger brother. That he was just like us in a way... I was not taught that he was God, but that he spoke for God in the beginning of the bible.

How much time would you say you have given to the study of this issue? Have you consulted the scriptures? The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith? Conference talks? As I said, the statement that Jesus is God is on the first page of the Book of Mormon. It isn't like a person needs to do some especially in depth study to see that.

Now I do not pretend to know how this concept could have escaped you. I cannot imagine your personal devotion to a study of the scriptures was anything less than total. Perhaps in your eagerness to measure every word, you overlooked this principle. Perhaps you knew a primary friend that knew they could ignore every word of class and answer every question with a single word: 'Jesus'. There is some truth to that. There is a reason for that.

Take a look at Mosiah 3. Verse 5 says: 'the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.'

Verse 8 says: 'he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.'

Verse 20-21 says: 'the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent.'

Mosiah 5:15 calls the Saviour 'Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent'

What did Jesus say to the Nephites? 'Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.' (3 Nephi 11:14)

Or, check out Hymn 134 in the LDS Hymnal, I Believe in Christ. Verse 3 says: 'I believe in Christ- my Lord, my God!'

It is sad but true that there are many who live within the Church for decades and go through the motions without understanding some of the most basic and necessary principles of Mormonism. The notion that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God is THE founding principle of Mormonism.

-a-train

But then there is two Gods.

The Son of God and God the Father.

It isn't "basic principles" I am having problems with.

It is remembering how to count I think.

1...2...?

Desire,

Just to set the record straight traditional Christians also believe that Jesus is our perfect brother. To quote a popular chorus....

"Your my friend and you are my brother, even though you are a king"

That is what makes most sense to me.

None of that trinity triangle!!!

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Here's the thing: Trinitarians believe in only one God. Forget the diagrams and the illustrations. Here's how it's spelled out for us in Scripture.

1. The Father is God. We share this belief with Jews, Muslims, Catholics, and, yes, LDS.

2. The Son is God. We've lost the Jews and Muslims on this one, and LDS hedge, saying it is not appropriate to worship the Son.

3. The Holy Spirit is God. Again, I'm uncertain that LDS would want to 'worship' the Spirit.

4. These three are the one true and living God. Deuteronomy 6:4 reminds us that God is one. It is the schema--the most basic truth of the three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

Nothing in Trinitarian theology denies that Jesus is the Son of God. But, if by 'brother,' the idea that we are of the same nature as him--in essence members of the Godhead--then we would disagree.

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Desire,

I think both LDS and the vast majority of non-LDS Christians believe that there are three persons who to us are our God. How we conceptualize that oneness is where we differ.

Trinitarians: Would say three persons (capable of intercommunicating, being in differing places and performing separate acts) exist as one being.

LDS: Veiw God as a rank or title and thaty the three persons oneness exist in a Godhead.

If your wanting a faith were Jesus isn't God then maybe the JW's will make sense to you. However for mine, I can't help think they leave Jesus as a demi-god, somewhere between God and man but not quite either.

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Desire...just a thought, then. What Scriptures do you have confidence in? The Bible? If so, read it. In fact, read it fairly fast--not to get all the details, but rather the big picture. Try reading it in 4-6 months. Ask God to direct your reading. THEN, do your church hunting.

My expectation is that you will hear the teaching and be able to discern what is of God and what is of people. God will direct you to where you need to be.

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