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Princess3dward

More Than One God?

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A basic passage comes to mind that says God is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. Thus, when Jesus became incarnate (came in the flesh), it was seen as a drastic humility--a lowering of his nature. So, again, we realize the tremendous sacrifice Jesus made by becoming one of us.

He remains God, but he subjected himself to significant limitation. The nature of God is spirit.

The Spirit of the Father remains absolutely with the Son--thus the three are one essence. By subjecting the Father likewise to a body, you really do end up with what looks very much like three gods.

(BTW, if I'm wrong, and you're right, it would not destroy my faith. I just find such a belief harder to reconcile with the thorough-going monotheism of the biblical witness).

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A basic passage comes to mind that says God is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. Thus, when Jesus became incarnate (came in the flesh), it was seen as a drastic humility--a lowering of his nature. So, again, we realize the tremendous sacrifice Jesus made by becoming one of us.

He remains God, but he subjected himself to significant limitation. The nature of God is spirit.

The Spirit of the Father remains absolutely with the Son--thus the three are one essence. By subjecting the Father likewise to a body, you really do end up with what looks very much like three gods.

(BTW, if I'm wrong, and you're right, it would not destroy my faith. I just find such a belief harder to reconcile with the thorough-going monotheism of the biblical witness).

So, are you saying that the Father and the Son DO share that same corporeal body?

-a-train

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I don't think Jesus referred to God as spirit in a weak sense that weaken''s the idea the Father could not be a personage of some type. Luke 24:39 may indicate Jesus spirit as God was a personage of spirit and shape and form in-between his death and resurrection. Because of that i think Jesus just lumpingly applied the term that God is spirit to all member's of the Godhead the Father and Holy Spirit who he lumped together.

The presence of even Jesus as God as a partial personage of spirit would destroy the idea the Father has to be formless. The spirit part of God must be formless, and Jesus body only can have form in order for the creedal Trinity to work. Unless of course a formless God created a pre-mortal spirit body for Christ like he created for him a physical body.

The creedal writer's had to adopt a definition of person's of the Trinity that denied they were three God's, or even close to tri-theism. What they did was to say the person's of God were like the person's an actor played in a play via face mask's. That way the person's could be person's and fit Isa. 43:10 at the same time without contradiction. The problem is the person's of God are aware of eachother which make's them person's. And the creed's do not teach that the three are mere roles of God. But the misleadingly applied latin word persona was the only defense the creed's had against the idea it mixed mono-theism with tri-theism.

The only real thing that prevent's any type of plurality of Gods is the existence of only one God in the Godhead. If the three are more precisely defined as person's and an alternative to persona can't be found the New Testament idea of God mixes mono-theism and the idea of three God's. I know of know place in the New Testament where the idea of the person's were defended in light of the idea the three weren't more three mere role's of God.

My main objection to persona is that in order to defend the three as not God's they have to become the dumb person's an actor play's in a play. If the Father and Son are aware of eachother that makes them person's. The person's an actor play's arn't aware of each other

I have seen Isa.43:10 used to affirm the three have to be one God. If the New Testament got away from the idea God was a single person then the verse does not fit the New Testament idea of God. It wouldn't fit the plurality of god's idea any better.

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Guest RaiseMeUp77

Wow my brain hurts but I see where it gets confusing. I'm trying to look into this in the most unbiased perspective. The trinity concept starts to become unattractive because its just simply confusing. When deeply prodded and investigated it turns to differing opinions of doctrine (which isnt bad) but I dont see order or the consistency in everyones beliefs. The main thing I dont understand is are you guys saying its three different beings in one or the exact same in all three? Because based on what I just read from the posts there are two different opinions. The concept of three distinct seperate personages being one in cause fills in a lot of the shaded area the trinity concept leaves behind. Mainly because you can simply say they were each their own and not have to guess the forms they took and when and how it happened. I just realized this forum has got some brains working. I'm impressed =)

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So, are you saying that the Father and the Son DO share that same corporeal body?

-a-train

In the same way that you and the Holy Spirit share your corporeal body. It's yours, but God made it, and the Holy Spirit resides with you, and is fully aware of every cell.

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In the same way that you and the Holy Spirit share your corporeal body. It's yours, but God made it, and the Holy Spirit resides with you, and is fully aware of every cell.

Hi PC

I don't believe that LDS believe that the Holy Ghost inhabits our corporeal body, resides inside of us. Our own soul/spirit inhabits our mortal body.

The Holy Ghost speaks to us via our own soul/spirit. Such as the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.

If we do not live in such a way that keeps us in tuned to these whisperings, then we will not "hear" the voice of God.

Heavenly Father is an entity. Jesus Christ is his only begotten son and is an entity. The Holy Ghost is an Entity. Three totally separate beings. All three are Gods. Plural. Heavenly Father is who Jesus Christ answers to- He obeys Heavenly Father (God). We mortals obey Jesus Christ, He too is God. Not a different version, but the Son of God (Heavenly Father).Jesus Christ created this earth and us, and every living thing on this planet. Heavenly Father-God commanded Jesus Christ to do this, and Jesus Christ obeyed Him. He did this before He was born as a mortal to Mary.

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Guest RaiseMeUp77

Iggy by this scripture I assume we believe otherwise.

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. (D&C 130:22)

I also had a friend who had a really remarkable and sacred experience happen to him that reaffirms this as well.

Just my opinion.

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I agree, RaiseMeUp.

We also know that demons can possess a mortal body while the mortal's own spirit is still inside the physical body.

There is no law that says, "Only one spirit per body."

Probably more like, "Only one spirit controlling a body at any time."

Reflect upon the herd of swine rushing down the Gadarene slopes.

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RaiseMeUp-My understanding is the Trinity has three distinct centers of consciousness within God. That the three part's of God are one person, but able to be aware of the other parts. Saying they were like the mere role's of an actor was the only way the creedal writer's could say this was not teaching the idea of three God's.

One article on the latin word persona i read confessed the latin word persona did not truly fit the person's. That's because the three wern't mere role's of God, but existed as distinct part's at the same time.

I also ran into an article on CARM that said the part's were aware of the other part's.

The Trinity idea is the only easy way to fit the mon-theistic idea of one God with the distinct person's of God found in the New Testament. Any confession that they were really were, or partially like three person's would cause a clear contradiction with that.

In my Community of Christ/RLDS we arn't a creedal church. But officially my denomination unlike the LDS today favor's the creedal Trinity. But we have had many Anti-Trinitarian's. Officially it look's like via common consent we moved away from anti-Trinitarianism. I am ok with that as other Christian's find our view of God Trinitarian, but i don't see it as honestly working. I see the idea falling apart when that silly latin word persona is critically gone after.

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Here is my own theory on the subject.

We believe in what is called "Eternal progression"

We also believe that God is pure intelligence and truth. Intelligence is learned, and God learned it from somewhere. We came to this earth to become like our heavenly father, and we could not become like him had we not become mortal and experienced death and to "descend below all things."

I believe that in the very beginning there was a thing called evolution and that through knowledge and the eterneties, a being became the first God through experience and perfection. then because of love and righteousness, continued this throughout all time and eternity untill we get to our Heavenly Father. who then in turn created us and put us through the exact same steps he went through to get where he is at.

Just like a child grows up to become an adult, and then eventually a parent, and the process continues. This set of principles mimics what happened/happens in heaven.

God works in a naturl order of things, and Spirits are Matter, they are more refined than our primitive mortal eyes can see without the help of God.

God did have a father, and he is seated at the right hand of his eternal father in heaven, and enduring will eventually bring us to the same place, and have our own continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

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I agree, RaiseMeUp.

We also know that demons can possess a mortal body while the mortal's own spirit is still inside the physical body.

There is no law that says, "Only one spirit per body."

Probably more like, "Only one spirit controlling a body at any time."

Reflect upon the herd of swine rushing down the Gadarene slopes.

The only way that a demon can inherently "Posess" a body is by the person allowing it to happen. the person must be so deep in Sin, that Satan has that power over thier physcial Body. Spontanious demonic posession does not occur randomly like media and movies like to depict.

Evil spirits can also do alot of strange things like picking people up and throwing them, beating them up physically. I know of people personaly that this has happened to. My grandfather took part in an excorsim of a house that was owned by satanists. through the power of the priesthood, He rose his right hand to a square, and with the aid of a stake president and a mission president (he was a branch president at the time) they commanded the evil spirits to leave the house through the power of the priesthood. and quite literally, there was a physcial "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" as the spirits were forced to leave. the house literally shook, shadows moved and wails and crys we heard throughout the house.

It is a very real thing.

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Hi PC

I don't believe that LDS believe that the Holy Ghost inhabits our corporeal body, resides inside of us. Our own soul/spirit inhabits our mortal body.

The Holy Ghost speaks to us via our own soul/spirit. Such as the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.

If we do not live in such a way that keeps us in tuned to these whisperings, then we will not "hear" the voice of God.

Heavenly Father is an entity. Jesus Christ is his only begotten son and is an entity. The Holy Ghost is an Entity. Three totally separate beings. All three are Gods. Plural. Heavenly Father is who Jesus Christ answers to- He obeys Heavenly Father (God). We mortals obey Jesus Christ, He too is God. Not a different version, but the Son of God (Heavenly Father).Jesus Christ created this earth and us, and every living thing on this planet. Heavenly Father-God commanded Jesus Christ to do this, and Jesus Christ obeyed Him. He did this before He was born as a mortal to Mary.

The effects of the spirit is much akin to the likeness of posession. In no way am i trying to degrade it by any means.

But the spirit, guides our thoughts when we allow it to. The holy spirit does not have a physical body like the other 2 of the GodHead because if he did, there would be no way for him to be Omnipresent.

I was taught to focus on nothing except feeling the spirit when giving blessings. and to let the spirit guide your words. I know of priesthood holders who have critisized my mother for certain choices she made that she felt the Lord told her to make. and when they gave her a blessing regarding the matter, told her she was doing the right thing. then immediately after the blessing, continued to chastize her for her actions.

The Holy spirit is a wonderous thing that does literally reside in us when we are living righteously and allow it to come into our lives. When we sin, the Holy spirit has to withdraw from us because it cannot dwell in unholy temples. the more we sin the farther away it has to be. but it does and can quite literally take posession of our bodies if needed and we let it. I also knew of people that "blacked out" when giving a testimony at fast sunday. they felt impressed to get up and bare his testimony but he resisted and didn;t move, the next thing he knew he was at the podium mic going "uhhhhhhhh. I didn't want to get up here and i don;t remember walking up here but i guess i was supposed to....."

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The only way that a demon can inherently "Posess" a body is by the person allowing it to happen.

Incorrect.

I'm not going to write a long post about it, but I will tell you that I know from personal experience that this is not true.

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In the same way that you and the Holy Spirit share your corporeal body. It's yours, but God made it, and the Holy Spirit resides with you, and is fully aware of every cell.

Hmmmm....So with this, there would be one sense wherein the Father has no corporeal extension, but another wherein He does. Is that correct? And, are we really outside the confines of the Trinity doctrine? What can I look at as the authoritative definition of the Trinity doctrine? Perhaps I should have started there. Are there several various authorities that I should be familiar with?

-a-train

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My denomination rejects the idea of eternal progession. I do recall in about 1894 the idea of a plurality of gods being categorized by the RLDS Church as an idea of man. Some few RLDS had accepted the basic idea of the plurality of God's for year's like Issac Sheen the early Editor of our publication the Saint's Herald. The idea of God the Faither having a physical body was an idea we rejected.

The Book of Abraham looked based on the criticisms of Egyptologists like it was a speculative translation of the papyrus. Though my feeling based on LDS research that the book is not without it's certain solid evidences.

I see the Father and Son as two aware of each other to be called anything but God's. I never have embraced the basic Evangelical polemic point's against God being a personage of spirit as in the Lecture's on Faith, and as i interpret the First vision.

The idea of God the Father being a personage of tabernacle open's up the possibility of progession to be more like him. In the creed's God has no form as to his spirit, and is everywhere present.

One book i got Understanding the Trinity by Allister E. McGrath said Jesus was kind of like a sample of moon rock without being the whole moon. I think he even compared the spirit that is God to the vastness of the ocean.

I recall Jame's White a rabid LDS critic as suggesting a vast difference existed between creature and creator. But that vast difference would not exist if the Father was a personage of some type. So that vastness if an based on the imagination of Jame's White would not be in existence preclude us from becoming like him.

The Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith film used Psalm 90:2 against God being once a man. But i noticed Psalm 103:17 teache's we shall experience the mercy of the Lord "from everlasting to everlasting." The word everlasting come's from the Hebrew Olam if i recall right. And the word is a long but hidden period of time uncertain as to it's temporal duration. And if we can enjoy God's mercy for just as long, and our enjoyment had a beginning so could God also have a beginning.

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"And if we can enjoy God's mercy for just as long, and our enjoyment had a beginning so could God also have a beginning."

That does not necessarily follow

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Dr. T-It is my understanding that LDS think only the Father's spirit and physical bodies had a beginning. That his intelligence was uncreated. But that at some point he came to be God which Psalm 90:2 is not a strong contradiction with.

We also experience it from everlasting to everlasting. But we had a beginning so how could we experience it from everlasting to everlasting? Psalm 90:2 is used to say God was God without beginning in his role as God because of those words. Everlasting mean's everlasting without beginning, or end, or it allow's for a beginning in God's role.

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