Really? The world is coming to this?


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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Anatess, you clearly have absolutely no interest in trying to understand me or what my actual point of view is. You're only interested in proving me wrong, pointing out all the flaws in any wording I used, and pounding your opinion down my throat.

I'm not interested in that conversation/debate.

If you want to understand my view you're free to ask politely. But don't be too surprised if you've ticked me off enough that even then I just tell you to take a flying leap.

Hah hah... More gaslighting.  "I shouldn't have to expound on my view unless you ask nicely even if you've written 2 posts on the matter and clearly don't understand my point of view... I should just say you clearly don't understand anything and wait until you say pretty please explain to me because I'm... I don't know... god emperor or something".

I'm done with this one.  I have no interest in what you have to say on the matter anymore.

Edited by anatess2
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22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Hah hah... More gaslighting.

Part of the problem is you treat conversations with your supposed friends like it's a political debate. I'm not here to debate with you. I'm not gaslighting. I'm angry. I shared an opinion about a subject that interests me and I immediately get told how everything I said was wrong, wrong, WRONG!

22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm done with this one. 

Good.

22 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I have no interest in what you have to say on the matter anymore.

You never had any interest in what I had to say on the matter.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Guest MormonGator
On 7/1/2019 at 11:13 PM, person0 said:

I thought the non-musical adaptation with Liam Neeson was excellent.  I didn't even bother to watch the more recent one.

Do you prefer seeing a musical live or do you like the movie versions better? Not trying to argue, just curious. 
 

@Backroads, what about you? 

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42 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 I'm angry. I shared an opinion about a subject that interests me and I immediately get told how everything I said was wrong, wrong, WRONG!

Kind of like your response in the other thread about Modesty that seemed to reference my post about the article having some good points.

Quote

This article is ridiculous and nothing but lies. I can't see how anyone can be saying "some good points" and the like. No. They're not good points. They're garbage points based on lies.

 

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17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Do you prefer seeing a musical live or do you like the movie versions better? Not trying to argue, just curious. 
 

@Backroads, what about you? 

Like books, I almost always prefer live musicals over movies.  I like the atmosphere of going out, seeing different performers' portrayals of characters.

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, dprh said:

Like books, I almost always prefer live musicals over movies.  I like the atmosphere of going out, seeing different performers' portrayals of characters.

I totally agree with you my friend. 

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16 minutes ago, dprh said:

Kind of like your response in the other thread about Modesty that seemed to reference my post about the article having some good points.

 

Hmm. Maybe.

A few things though.

First, I said "I can't see how anyone can be saying 'some good points' and the like...." There's distinct meaning in the words "I can't see".  And there's distinct meaning in the words "and the like." There would be a whole world of difference if anatess has started by saying, "I can't see how you don't think the main actors in that movie are singers." Instead of just correcting me. "All the main actors in that movie are singers."

More importantly, I've debated music and the arts with @anatess2 before. She is totally clueless about my knowledge and expertise on the matter. She doesn't show me any respect, which is, if I do say so myself, foolish, as music and theater is and has been my primary focus for some 30 years of my life now, including 7+ years of majoring in composition and singing. (That's right. I was a vocal singing major in college. Not that even that means diddly to the point I was making. More importantly is the reality that I've written and produced some dozen or show musicals, concerts, etc. through the years. Still not that important to the point I was making (which was merely subjective opinion) But just, you know...show a little respect instead of treating me like some no-nothing idiot. I actually do know a little bit of what I'm talking about on this subject.) (Note: I did not bring this up debating with her because it really is so meaningless as to the point of view I shared. I only bring it up now to point out to you how and why I am so frustrated with her response, and how that is decidedly different than our interaction in the other thread. My frustration with her is personal.)

She can choose to have no respect for my view if she wants. But I'm going to respond by saying exactly what I said -- "I'd argue with you -- but what's the point?" That's because there's a history of her not showing me respect on similar subjects, and I know better than to get into it with her. It's not because I'm gaslighting. It's because we have a history -- and I don't want to have a pointless argument about subjective things (like what someone means when they refer to another as "a singer").

As to my comment referencing yours -- I was not specifically referencing yours (thus, the "and the like" part). Mores said, "She's both right and wrong." and Lady Gunnar is essentially fully agreeing with the article. The fact that I more directly referenced your wording was related to the fact that it was more fresh in my mind, being more recently said.

But really, that's not the problem I have with anatess. If you replied to my statement by telling me that I didn't understand you, then if I actually said, "Well, what do you mean then?" then we'd be in fair territory. Anatess, instead of asking me for clarification when I tell her she didn't understand doubled down with her typical pig-headed-ness and tells me I'm gaslighting. When what I actually was saying was that she didn't understand me, but I wasn't going to argue about it because it wasn't important to me to prove her wrong.

I can very easily explain what I meant and how she misunderstood. She might still disagree -- -and that's fine -- but she doesn't even care to understand or ask. She's only determined to be right.

If you explain to me what you meant in the other thread and how you see some good points then I might still disagree, and would be happy to explain why and how I disagree. But we'd be treating each other fairly. There is no problem in two people disagreeing. You equating my disagreement with your statement in the other thread to what's going on with anatess in this one is invalid. In that thread we probably just disagree. Anatess and I disagreeing is not the problem in this thread. It's the way she's treating me, someone she's known on this forum for years and years, someone who she should very well know is intelligent and capable of supporting their view (even without understanding my specific musical expertise), and someone who she has claimed to be a friend to in the past. It comes down to that. Don't treat your friends so disrespectfully when they share an opinion.

Now an argument can be made that we shouldn't treat anyone disrespectfully, of course. And in retrospect I can see how my use of your wording looked like a direct attack on you. And for that, I'm willing to admit I made a mistake and apologize for it. I wasn't trying to attack you. I just had the sense that several people were giving the article more credit than I felt it deserved. Using the phrase "some good points" summed that idea up well, and as I said, was fresher in my mind, so your words got quoted. I apologize for that.

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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Do you prefer seeing a musical live or do you like the movie versions better? Not trying to argue, just curious. 

I tend to enjoy the music better at the live performances, yet I appreciate the visual freedom enabled by the movie format, which, when done right, can provide additional fulfilling material and visual flow.  That said, I would always choose a live performance a the movie for entertainment purposes; especially because live versions vary in stylistic elements over time, so the same thing doesn't feel like the same thing.   I have seen Wicked twice and The Phantom of the Opera three times live, however, I am the type of person who doesn't usually watch a movie more than once intentionally.  However, for any musical that originated as a movie, I will always prefer the movie.  I suppose you could say I am an 'originalist' 😁.

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, person0 said:

   I have seen Wicked twice

 @LadyGator loves that musical, and I do like one song from it. Yes, it's "Defying Gravity". Idina Menzel was in the OBC of both Rent and Wicked!

Phantom I have mixed feelings about. I like a few of the songs, but it's more style than substance. Like eating ice cream for dinner-I feel guilty after doing so, but I like the experience.  

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52 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@LadyGator loves that musical

Women tend to like that musical more than men (and I mean of the men that like musicals)...unless the men are...you know....playin' for the other team.

I can't say what I think of that musical without using a homophobic slur....so..........

52 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Phantom I have mixed feelings about. I like a few of the songs, but it's more style than substance. Like eating ice cream for dinner-I feel guilty after doing so, but I like the experience.  

Good description.

Phantom has no substance. But some great music.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Would you say that remains true with the Disney cartoon conversions?

Yes!  In fact, that is one of the things I was thinking of specifically when making that comment.  On a similar note, ignoring remixes/medleys and parodies, I don't often appreciate cover versions of songs, except where the cover is superior to the original (subjective, yes I know).  One example of this would be the song Blinded by the Light by Bruce Springsteen; I find the cover by Mandred Mann's Earth Band to be a refreshing and preferable recasting of the original.  On the other hand, Alien Ant Farm's cover of Michael Jackson's Smooth Criminal, well, I must call that a travesty as I can think of no more appropriate word.

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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Like eating ice cream for dinner-I feel guilty after doing so, but I like the experience.

I frequently eat dinner and then a dinner sized portion of ice cream, also.  The guilt fluctuates with my weight 😊.

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14 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Women tend to like that musical more than men (and I mean of the men that like musicals)...unless the men are...you know....playin' for the other team.

I can't say what I think of that musical without using a homophobic slur....so..........

I was going to defend my enjoyment of Wicked, but after some reflection I'm realizing that what I like about it doesn't come up in the discussions I have with women. Nonetheless, you and Neil Patrick Harris are on a short list of people trying to convince me to come out of the closet because I like musical theater.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

I was going to defend my enjoyment of Wicked, but after some reflection I'm realizing that what I like about it doesn't come up in the discussions I have with women. Nonetheless, you and Neil Patrick Harris are on a short list of people trying to convince me to come out of the closet because I like musical theater.

 As it happens, I just saw Wicked on Tuesday evening with my wife. I didn't hate it; on the contrary, it was quite entertaining. But I didn't exactly like it, either.

A lot of it had to do with the open or thinly veiled political correctness garbage that always takes place in such venues. But even more than that, taking an established story with innocent characters and turning it on its head, making the characters evil, tends to irritate me. I think of Jim Carey's Grinch, one of the most horrific remakes in cinematic history. Wicked was like that, though admittedly much more entertaining.

 And when Elphaba confessed her love for Galinda's boyfriend by saying that it made her feel "wicked", well, that pretty much sealed my distaste for much of the production. Talk about profaning sacred things...

Edited by Vort
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11 minutes ago, Vort said:

A lot of it had to do with the open or thinly veiled political correctness garbage that always takes place in such venues. But even more than that, taking an established story with innocent characters and turning it on its head, making the characters evil, tends to irritate me. I think of Jim Carey's Grinch, one of the most horrific remakes in cinematic history. Wicked was like that, though admittedly much more entertaining.

I haven't seen Wicked.  But what you're describing is not much different than what I saw in Into the Woods.  As I watched it, I kept proclaiming,"That's what I thought when I read Grimm's Fairy Tales!"  Seriously, I realized that with a story you have to have a protag and antag.  But who was the real perpetrator of evil?  I think I was beginning to sound like Garo in One Punch Man.

I wondered what on earth the Giant had done other than being a "monster" that justified Jack turning into a thief?  And what exactly would give Rapunzel's parents the right to turn into thieves simply because a pregnant woman shouldn't be expected to curb her cravings?

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4 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I was going to defend my enjoyment of Wicked, but after some reflection I'm realizing that what I like about it doesn't come up in the discussions I have with women.

;)

4 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Nonetheless, you and Neil Patrick Harris are on a short list of people trying to convince me to come out of the closet because I like musical theater.

Come on. Lot's of straight guys like Les Miz and Hamilton.

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21 hours ago, mordorbund said:

I was going to defend my enjoyment of Wicked, but after some reflection I'm realizing that what I like about it doesn't come up in the discussions I have with women. Nonetheless, you and Neil Patrick Harris are on a short list of people trying to convince me to come out of the closet because I like musical theater.

I really like the play Wicked.  I couldn't stand the book though.  It was....gross.  

NPH has never tried to convince me of anything.  I feel left out. 😂

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On 7/4/2019 at 9:23 PM, mordorbund said:

You just haven't seen the right one yet.

I think that was one of the greatest things I've ever seen.  I got hooked on the rocky movies growing up.  That said, that would be different, because they took a non musical film and turned it into a musical 'summary'.  I would consider that quite original, and enjoyable.  I'd be willing to bet a large sum that if they were to make a full length Rocky musical, I probably would rather watch the movie; the whole thing couldn't possibly be as amazing as that cliff notes musical!

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The movie is a favorite in our family, with pretty much everyone except me. I watch it with them and pretend to enjoy it, but I soon get lost in my own thoughts and lose the plot. I remember the character Mimi being a heroin addict, and when there's a funeral towards the end I always think it is hers - and am then surprised to see her alive again. (It is actually the funeral of some other character who has AIDS.) Some of the music is OK I guess, but by and large it's a relief to me when it's over.

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