Anyone else have a combined Self Reliance/Finances lesson?

[NeuroTypical]

We did a combined 5th Sunday adults lesson on this stuff yesterday.  Bishop and I gave the lesson.   Being wise in managing finances.  Keeping a budget so you run your money instead of the other way around.  How to not fall for multilevel marketing scams.  Counseling with your spouse and the Lord are both crucial.  Temporal and Spiritual are basically the same thing, in that all things are spiritual.  Bishop emphasized the importance of health and work as foundational principles of our welfare system.  

[Guest Mores]

26 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We did a combined 5th Sunday adults lesson on this stuff yesterday.  Bishop and I gave the lesson.   Being wise in managing finances.  Keeping a budget so you run your money instead of the other way around.  How to not fall for multilevel marketing scams.  Counseling with your spouse and the Lord are both crucial.  Temporal and Spiritual are basically the same thing, in that all things are spiritual.  Bishop emphasized the importance of health and work as foundational principles of our welfare system.  

Yeah, we sort of had that yesterday as well.  Must have been a Church-wide directive.

We didn't cover the financial part as much as overall self-reliance.  And that was about 30 min emergency prep + 10 min financial prep + remainder discussion over general topics and the preparedness condition of the ward.

It was interesting that your bishop included health and work as foundational.  I was just reading an older post by a long time forum member who doesn't post much.  She just recently posted that caught my eye.  One of her older posts indicated that she has lots of health issues that prevents her from working much. 

Pretty sad life she outlined.  I'm not sure what could be done for her.  Sometimes, we can love, hope, pray, etc.  But we can really do very little in the nuts and bolts of helping someone like that.

I wonder if there is a guide for service in cases of individuals who have such needs that we can't really help them.  I'll give a couple of examples.

This was me last week.

Quote

I recently had a problem with my riding lawn mower.  I needed a truck and trailer to get it to the repair shop.  No one was able to help me with that.  Besides that, even if I did have one, I had no means to get it up the ramp and onto the trailer (it weighs about 3500#).  Even with a ramp, that would be impossible.  I was at a loss.  I eventually spent about three hours on the internet to learn how to diagnose it and fix it myself.  I then spent several hours in diagnostics.  I found the problem and have a part coming in the mail this week.  I should be able to fix it in about an hour.  So, it was kind of a blessing that no one could help me.  It would probably have cost $500 to $600 to have it fixed.  But as it is, I spent $91 for the part and $20 on the multimeter required for diagnostics.

This is a woman in our ward

Quote

She was divorced a few years ago.  With no real skills, she's got a low paying job.  She has mild health issues.  And she's very happy to complain about them all.  When the bishop asked yesterday about ideas of what things can pop up at any moment and throw our lives into disarray, she began spitting out a laundry list of things that just happened to her recently.

But the thing is that I don't believe she's saying it in a "woe is me" state.  She's just venting.  She really just wants a listening ear.  Once she's done venting, she's a perfectly pleasant person.

I offered a pathway to FREE training for a much better job.  But she's afraid of taking it because she thinks she's not up to the challenge because she says that she's terrible at math.  I tried assuring her that it only required basic math skills.  I couldn't force it on her.  But I let her know that she'd greatly benefit.  And she'd make life better for herself and her children if she did.  I've seen her several times since then.  She hasn't shown any interest.

Then there is the story of "Lift" you can find on Youtube.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Mores

[MarginOfError]

There was a directive to all of the U.S. and Canada to devote the 5th Sunday meeting of either March or June to the topic.

I can't find a link to the outline that was distributed to leadership.  There's nothing particularly sensitive about it, so I will happily upload a copy of the outline, if the moderators will agree to it.  If not, I'm willing to send a copy to any interested parties outside of these channels.

The outline itself is heavily focused on financial management.

[anatess2]

We had that lesson yesterday in Florida.  We thought nothing of it because we always have this lesson on 5th Sunday of the summer to prepare for Hurricane Season.

[NeuroTypical]

13 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I can't find a link to the outline that was distributed to leadership.  There's nothing particularly sensitive about it, so I will happily upload a copy of the outline,

I see several wards have already uploaded it, like this one:

https://drsaints.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Church-Letter.pdf

[mirkwood]

We had that topic last 5th Sunday.  This time around all the youth met with the stake patriarch about patriarchal blessings.  Everyone else was in primary, relief society or priesthood.

[CV75]

21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

We did a combined 5th Sunday adults lesson on this stuff yesterday.  Bishop and I gave the lesson.   Being wise in managing finances.  Keeping a budget so you run your money instead of the other way around.  How to not fall for multilevel marketing scams.  Counseling with your spouse and the Lord are both crucial.  Temporal and Spiritual are basically the same thing, in that all things are spiritual.  Bishop emphasized the importance of health and work as foundational principles of our welfare system.  

We had a 5th Sunday like this 2 or 3 5th Sundays ago... Last Sunday it was about something else.

[NeedleinA]

23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

How to not fall for multilevel marketing scams.

Same. Emphasis on how not to fall from them even with other members of the Church. Sad, but necessary to say too.

[Iggy]

4 hours ago, mirkwood said:

We had that topic last 5th Sunday.  This time around all the youth met with the stake patriarch about patriarchal blessings.  Everyone else was in primary, relief society or priesthood.

Our Stake Patriarch gave a talk three Sundays ago - his wife was to be there too, but she was sick so she gave him her talk with instructions to NOT deviate from it. What a joy they both are.

For our 5th Sunday we were supposed to be learning about Member Missionary Work. Problem was our Branch Mission Leader is on vacation, our Branch President is still on vacation, our Sister Missionaries hadn't a clue what was to be taught other than they were to go to the next page of the power point presentation that the Mission Leader took with him, and the Branch Counselors didn't have clues either. Our assigned High Priest was NOT impressed with the Branch Presidencies lack of organization.

The Counselors didn't want the substitute GD teacher to teach next Sunday's lesson either, so the adults with no children in Primary or the YM (all of our YW are now SYA and are in their own Branch) left to go home early. Hubby and I went out to breakfast. When we got home, we watched the video that was really supposed to be shown, well the first 45 minutes of it. Hubby's legs hurt him, my neuropathy was in HIGH GEAR, thus neither of us could concentrate.

Today is a better day for both of us, so we will watch it.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Same. Emphasis on how not to fall from them even with other members of the Church. Sad, but necessary to say too.

Utah is famous for affinity fraud, sadly. 

[Fether]

2 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

On 7/1/2019 at 8:46 AM, NeuroTypical said:

How to not fall for multilevel marketing scams.

Same. Emphasis on how not to fall from them even with other members of the Church. Sad, but necessary to say too.

what were they considering as multi-level marketing scams as I haven’t gotten this lesson yet)?

Just stuff like Amway? were they also bunching in essential oil and Herbalife salesmen I’m there? And  were they going as far as to say companies like Vivint SmartHome and other multilevel sales companies ought to be avoided?

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

what were they considering as multi-level marketing scams as I haven’t gotten this lesson yet)?

Just stuff like Amway? were they also bunching in essential oil and Herbalife salesmen I’m there? And  were they going as far as to say companies like Vivint SmartHome and other multilevel sales companies ought to be avoided?

They should be avoided. It's virtually impossible to make a decent living with those companies. Oh sure, you'll meet someone here or there who claims they've gotten rich selling Essential Oils. But they haven't. You'd be better off getting a job at a supermarket/fast food. At least that's honest work. 

[Guest Mores]

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

what were they considering as multi-level marketing scams as I haven’t gotten this lesson yet)?

Just stuff like Amway? were they also bunching in essential oil and Herbalife salesmen I’m there? And  were they going as far as to say companies like Vivint SmartHome and other multilevel sales companies ought to be avoided?

A couple of things:

1) The business model has an end point.  And with each successive level, the formation of a new level is that much harder.  While not "exactly" a ponzi scheme, it has many of the same problems for advancement and growth.

2) The business model has a major self-destructive quality in many cases.  There are no lines of jurisdiction.  You can be competing with your neighbor for the same customers, as you provide the same products for the same prices.  Can you imagine what it would be like if two people decided to court Wal-mart to build two stores right next to each other?  That would be madness.  One of them would be destined to fail.  With MLM, you can have this condition and you'd be destined to fail without ever knowing why.

[Fether]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

They should be avoided. It's virtually impossible to make a decent living with those companies. Oh sure, you'll meet someone here or there who claims they've gotten rich selling Essential Oils. But they haven't. You'd be better off getting a job at a supermarket/fast food. At least that's honest work. 

 

8 minutes ago, Mores said:

A couple of things:

1) The business model has an end point.  And with each successive level, the formation of a new level is that much harder.  While not "exactly" a ponzi scheme, it has many of the same problems for advancement and growth.

2) The business model has a major self-destructive quality in many cases.  There are no lines of jurisdiction.  You can be competing with your neighbor for the same customers, as you provide the same products for the same prices.  Can you imagine what it would be like if two people decided to court Wal-mart to build two stores right next to each other?  That would be madness.  One of them would be destined to fail.  With MLM, you can have this condition and you'd be destined to fail without ever knowing why.

The reason I ask the question is because you look at companies like Vivint SmartHome (who owns the SmartHome  Arena in SLC where the Jazz play). They are immensely successful, they virtually birthed the door to door sales industry we have in the US today. They sell real products that people want, but have an underlying MLM build in their sales team. 

And as I mentioned above, most successful sales companies (primarily pest control, TV, alarm, and solar) fashion their companies after that. And if you look at the make up of those that work at these companies I would guess 50%+ are Latter-day Saints. And what more, they love it (or at least the ones that are good at it do).

So I always wonder when people are saying Utah is known for falling for MLM schemes, do they lump in all these successful sales companies as part of the statistics?

To me, this is similar to saying “Utahns are renown for fallowing cults”  while also considering The Restored Church a cult.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Fether

[NeuroTypical]

21 minutes ago, Fether said:

what were they considering as multi-level marketing scams as I haven’t gotten this lesson yet)?

Just stuff like Amway? were they also bunching in essential oil and Herbalife salesmen I’m there? And  were they going as far as to say companies like Vivint SmartHome and other multilevel sales companies ought to be avoided?

Gator pegged it - affinity fraud in general.  I probably shouldn't have mentioned multilevel mktg scams, it's just that's the most widely known.  

Selling stuff to people isn't a problem, even if it's what I would consider to be dumb and useless stuff.  The problem is when someone tries to increase their chances of selling something, especially dumb or even fraudulent stuff, by leveraging a supposed relationship.  You can trust me, I'm a moderator at thirdhour.org, and a finance clerk - and boy, do I have a great business opportunity for you!  The Lord trusts me with His tithing money, and this website obviously thinks I'm cool enough to have moderator privileges, so surely you'd jump at the chance to invest $10,000 in a venture that is GUARANTEED to triple your money in 3 years.  That sort of thing.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

.  The problem is when someone tries to increase their chances of selling something, especially dumb or even fraudulent stuff, by leveraging a supposed relationship.  

Right. Just because the guy is your stake president and a very nice man does not mean he's a good businessman. But because you think you can trust him as your stake president, you (generic) are more likely to trust him with your money. And that can lead to a complete disaster. 

What you need to remember is that sometimes even your bishop or stake president can be running a Ponzi scheme. 

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Right. Just because the guy is your stake president and a very nice man does not mean he's a good businessman. But because you think you can trust him as your stake president, you (generic) are more likely to trust him with your money. And that can lead to a complete disaster. 

What you need to remember is that sometimes even your bishop or stake president can be running a Ponzi scheme. 

Very very true...  But if I had to have a flaw... "Too trusting"  is better then a lot of other options.

[anatess2]

44 minutes ago, Mores said:

A couple of things:

1) The business model has an end point.  And with each successive level, the formation of a new level is that much harder.  While not "exactly" a ponzi scheme, it has many of the same problems for advancement and growth.

2) The business model has a major self-destructive quality in many cases.  There are no lines of jurisdiction.  You can be competing with your neighbor for the same customers, as you provide the same products for the same prices.  Can you imagine what it would be like if two people decided to court Wal-mart to build two stores right next to each other?  That would be madness.  One of them would be destined to fail.  With MLM, you can have this condition and you'd be destined to fail without ever knowing why.

This is not quite correct when talking about a REAL multi-level marketing business and not a ponzi scheme scam.

You know how you have these "how to tell the venomous water moccasins from the non-venomous water snakes"... there are also "easy tells" in determining whether an MLM is a legit one (direct sale) or a ponzi/pyramid scheme - the biggest tell is, legit MLM's sell the Products.  Ponzi/pyramid schemes sell the Marketing Levels.

So, when you're talking about real MLMs:

1.) The business model has an end point.

Technically, It doesn't have an end point apart from regular capitalist transaction opportunity dry-up.  Because, you are not selling levels - you are selling products.  It will be like saying - Uber has an end point because there are too many Uber drivers... the number of Uber drivers expand and contract depending on demand.  So, as long as there is demand for the product, you can have a boatload of Uber drivers in every street corner succeeding in the business.

2.) The business model has a major self-destructive quality in many cases.

This is not a quality of the business model.  This is a product of the quality of the Business Management of that specific MLM and the MLMarketer themselves.  I'll give you a specific example - Avon is a very successful MLM business.  Avon sells household, health, and beauty products.  An Avon Marketer who knows what he's doing (you can't run any business, including an MLM business, without basic business skills) can succeed in Avon because the product sells itself.  The design of the MLM is that you simply have potential customers pore over catalogues - this is a marketing style that always succeeds with the woman psyche and it is more than likely that when a woman goes through the catalogue they will find at least $5 worth that she will spend on as an impulse buy.  Now, you might think - you have 5 Avon marketers in a city block, selling the same catalogue, that wouldn't work!  Well, actually, it does because the Avon Marketer is not competing on location.  Rather, the Avon Marketer is selling to her social group which is different from the girl next-door's social group.  And, more than likely if one person in her social group wants to sell Avon to the same social group, then she will become a level down of the first Avon marketer in that social group - so the first Avon marketer gets commission of her sales.

Now, how this becomes destructive is when the Avon Marketer doesn't know how to run a business, mixes her personal and business lives into one thing, and goes off and becomes that annoying woman in Relief Society who only remembers your name when there's a new catalogue, or goes and uses the ward directory to mail out her catalogues.  Avon actually has training programs for their Marketers training potential marketers on basic business skills and training their up-levels on how to spot a good potential marketer and how to avoid bad potential marketers.  Anyway, most of MLM failures is because of people becoming a Marketer thinking it's easy business and not understand the first thing about running a business.

Another way this becomes destructive is when the business itself is not stable.  A perfect example of this is Lularoe.  Lularoe had the potential of a very successful MLM.  Their products were so good, they're were selling like hot cakes.  Lularoe was started by an LDS couple.  I have several Lularoe pieces in my wardrobe and I'm very picky with my clothes.  Then the owners of Lularoe imploded... they lost interest in the business and products were being shipped moldy and just general eek.  The topmost levels became shady people becoming this club of women going to Mexico for plastic surgery and pressuring their downlines to get surgeries because it's not good to represent your business looking like '"that"...  I think they're in jail now.  Anyway, if you want to start a potentially successful MLM - find out who supplied Lularoe their products and create your own Lularoe company and keep it stable.

Another MLM started by an LDS woman is Maskcara - a make-up product.  This seems like another stable MLM except that... their products are hit or miss.  You can get the same products for better quality for the same price at the mall.  So, I wouldn't advice becoming a Maskcara Marketer unless they come up with better products.

My favorite MLM - I actually became a Marketer for it but not necessarily so I can sell the products, but rather, so I can get the much cheaper Marketer price - is Arbonne.  This is health and beauty products MLM that is vegan.  I'm not vegan but their cleansing products are very high quality and worked very well with my skin.

Edited July 2, 2019 by anatess2

[Backroads]

We had the lesson. Had some MLM bashing.

Nature of the companies bad or not, I am rather skeptical of them. I've seen too many horror stories. Know someone who lost their home. Know several people who signed up to be stay-at-home moms, yet kids live at daycare while moms spend all waking hours working the biz.

I think their culture contributes to mom-shaming. You're bad if you work outside the home, you're bad if you stay at home but don't contribute. One friend is beating herself up because her business didn't bring financial success.

I also associate them with prosperity gospel. "We are doing the Lord's work" "God wants me to be successful and rich". "I will show the world how God financially blesses me" Some even delve into idol worship. Ignore your family's needs while teaching them to look forward and value some vague future financial dream.

Recently I've seen a trend of culling FB friends to those only celebrating your business.

And of course the guilting of people to help one reach a goal.

I also am privy to a situation where a woman quit her MLM but is now being harassed by her upline in her ward.

Ah, you say, but not everyone is like that. No, but I think the culture of these easily gets toxic. As @anatess2 said, some business non-talents cause the problems, but wow, a lot of recruiters spread lore of "it's easy!"

Edited July 2, 2019 by Backroads

[Guest MormonGator]

47 minutes ago, Backroads said:

We had the lesson. Had some MLM bashing.

Nature of the companies bad or not, I am rather skeptical of them. I've seen too many horror stories. Know someone who lost their home. Know several people who signed up to be stay-at-home moms, yet kids live at daycare while moms spend all waking hours working the biz.

I think their culture contributes to mom-shaming. You're bad if you work outside the home, you're bad if you stay at home but don't contribute. One friend is beating herself up because her business didn't bring financial success.

I also associate them with prosperity gospel. "We are doing the Lord's work" "God wants me to be successful and rich". "I will show the world how God financially blesses me" Some even delve into idol worship. Ignore your family's needs while teaching them to look forward and value some vague future financial dream.

Recently I've seen a trend of culling FB friends to those only celebrating your business.

And of course the guilting of people to help one reach a goal.

I also am privy to a situation where a woman quit her MLM but is now being harassed by her upline in her ward.

Ah, you say, but not everyone is like that. No, but I think the culture of these easily gets toxic. As @anatess2 said, some business non-talents cause the problems, but wow, a lot of recruiters spread lore of "it's easy!"

My heart just breaks for these women. They aren't exactly innocent here (no one forced them to join an MLM scheme) but they just wanted to help their families and improve their lives. 

[Backroads]

41 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

My heart just breaks for these women. They aren't exactly innocent here (no one forced them to join an MLM scheme) but they just wanted to help their families and improve their lives. 

And then when they fail, they're often treated horribly, as they "just didn't work hard enough".

[Guest Mores]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

The reason I ask the question is because you look at companies like Vivint SmartHome (who owns the SmartHome  Arena in SLC where the Jazz play). They are immensely successful, they virtually birthed the door to door sales industry we have in the US today. They sell real products that people want, but have an underlying MLM build in their sales team. 

And as I mentioned above, most successful sales companies (primarily pest control, TV, alarm, and solar) fashion their companies after that. And if you look at the make up of those that work at these companies I would guess 50%+ are Latter-day Saints. And what more, they love it (or at least the ones that are good at it do).

I don't know what you're defining as "an underlying MLM build".  But you're not looking at details.  The only way some MLM people are successful is that those individuals approach it as a regular sales business rather than an MLM.  Door-to-door sales is a verifiable marketing system since time immemorial.  But are they trying to sell a product?  Or the "system"?  

When you're only selling the "system" it is a ponzi scheme.  It's a lazy man's route, and it is not an honest way to go about building a business.  If you're actually selling a product, then you are a regular business.

There is a middle ground.  If the mechanisms of the MLM are organized in such a manner as to mimic the chain of command (and responsibility) of a regular business, there is really little difference.  But it would require the ability of people in the chain to be kicked out/fired.  Any business model that maintains dead weight without the ability to fire them has a weakness in the business model.  It is not an efficient business.

I'd wonder if the most successful MLMs have a mechanism for either firing people in the chain, or of limiting their dividends within the chain.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Mores said:

I don't know what you're defining as "an underlying MLM build".  But you're not looking at details.  The only way some MLM people are successful is that those individuals approach it as a regular sales business rather than an MLM.  Door-to-door sales is a verifiable marketing system since time immemorial.  But are they trying to sell a product?  Or the "system"?  

When you're only selling the "system" it is a ponzi scheme.  It's a lazy man's route, and it is not an honest way to go about building a business.  If you're actually selling a product, then you are a regular business.

There is a middle ground.  If the mechanisms of the MLM are organized in such a manner as to mimic the chain of command (and responsibility) of a regular business, there is really little difference.  But it would require the ability of people in the chain to be kicked out/fired.  Any business model that maintains dead weight without the ability to fire them has a weakness in the business model.  It is not an efficient business.

I'd wonder if the most successful MLMs have a mechanism for either firing people in the chain, or of limiting their dividends within the chain.

They are MLM in the sense that I get money from my sales, but also if I recruit a team of people, I make money from their sales. And the. If the people I’m over recruit teams, I get a small residual from them. And so forth.

I don’t believe it is, but sometimes I wonder if RM’s draw toward door to door sales in companies that have an MLMesk structure is what leads to statistics saying Utahns are commonly scammed by MLM. When really we are just joining sales companies.

[Guest Mores]

8 hours ago, Fether said:

They are MLM in the sense that I get money from my sales, but also if I recruit a team of people, I make money from their sales. And the. If the people I’m over recruit teams, I get a small residual from them. And so forth.

If you're treating it like you're managing a sales team, and they are selling a product rather than the system, then it is a regular business.  But look at the motivational system.  How does one get promoted?  It is always from doing one's job.  Right?  The better you do your job, the more you get promoted.

In a regular sales force, one gets promoted by selling really well.  Then you teach others to sell really well.  In an MLM, what is it that you're selling that gets you promoted?  More product sales will NEVER get you promoted.  You might make more money, but never a promotion.  You get promoted by selling the system, i.e. recruiting.

If the entire motivation is to recruit people rather than sell products, there is a severe weakness in that business model.

[Fether]

56 minutes ago, Mores said:

If you're treating it like you're managing a sales team, and they are selling a product rather than the system, then it is a regular business.  But look at the motivational system.  How does one get promoted?  It is always from doing one's job.  Right?  The better you do your job, the more you get promoted.

In a regular sales force, one gets promoted by selling really well.  Then you teach others to sell really well.  In an MLM, what is it that you're selling that gets you promoted?  More product sales will NEVER get you promoted.  You might make more money, but never a promotion.  You get promoted by selling the system, i.e. recruiting.

If the entire motivation is to recruit people rather than sell products, there is a severe weakness in that business model.

Yes I know. As I said above, I don’t believe (and never have) they are MLM scams.

My purpose for the question was not out of misunderstanding, it was more to gage how everyone else sees them and to question whether the fact that most of these sales companies with MLMesk structures reside in Utah/Idaho is effecting the statistic that says Utah s fall for this stuff all the time.