MrShorty

"It's time Christians started including Latter-day Saints"

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2 hours ago, zil said:

Wow, apparently I've been in Utah too long, cuz I didn't even know there were chewable versions of coffee and tea. :huh:

Chocolate covered coffee beans are a real thing, and I imagine there are all kinds of matcha tea (green) flavored candies and pastries. :pumpup:

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5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I can have major problems with another person's / group's beliefs and still acknowledge their relationship with our mutual Savior Jesus Christ.  

The others I'm all-in on. However, this statement concerns me. To offer an example of why consider that Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet of God (Peace Be Upon Him). They do not believe Him to be the Son of God, or God. In LDS teaching on the Plan of Salvation, a sincere Muslim would likely end up in the Terrestial Kingdom--a heavenly realm. His reward would be due to Christ's saving work. Jesus is his savior, whether he knows it or not. (All of this assumes he does not fully embrace the teachings he receives in the life to come). So...would you acknowledge with a Muslim 'our mutual Savior Jesus Christ?'

Edited by prisonchaplain

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13 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

So...would you acknowledge with a Muslim 'our mutual Savior Jesus Christ?'

Sure. Christ is the Savior of the Muslim as much as he is of the Christian, the Jew, the Buddhist, or the atheist. But I'm guessing that the Muslim would not acknowlege that.

Probably not what you meant, but that's my literal-minded answer.

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Guest Scott
14 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

 In LDS teaching on the Plan of Salvation, a sincere Muslim would likely end up in the Terrestial Kingdom--a heavenly realm. His reward would be due to Christ's saving work. 

Only if he or she didn't accept the gospel in the next life.    The same is true of non-LDS Christians.   Everyone is given a chance to hear the gospel rather on earth or in the next life.    If they accept it and were good people, they would go to the Celestial Kingdom.   If they don't accept it, but were still good people, they will go to the Terrestial Kingdom.  The sincere Muslim in your example has the same chance as you or I to reach the Celestial Kingdom.

Edited by Scott

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4 minutes ago, Scott said:

Only if he or she didn't accept the gospel in the next life.    The same is true of non-LDS Christians.   Everyone is given a chance to hear the gospel rather on earth or in the next life.    If they accept it and were good people, they would go to the Celestial Kingdom.   If they don't accept it, but were still good people, they will go to the Terrestial Kingdom.  The sincere Muslim in your example has the same chance as you or I to reach the Celestial Kingdom.

We accept people where they are today--of course, always hoping for a greater tomorrow. Today, I am not LDS. I might become LDS in the future, or, perhaps in the after life if mortality's gospel presentation was not sufficient. However, there is a strong possibility that I will end up in the Terrestial Kingdom. @Scott, @Jane_Doe and many others here likely strive for the Celestial Kingdom. Part of what would lead us to different heavenly kingdoms is our understanding of our mutual savior. If the Church is right, my understanding is deficient. It may not be the sole factor keeping me from the Celestial Kingdom, but it is a factor. It may be that I clung stubbornly and unrighteously to my traditional beliefs out of pride. (Please understand I am just trying to paint a scenario...). If I am even partially understanding this, then Jesus might be savior to all of us, but there is not enough mutuality among us that we will end up in the same realm. Does this make sense? Or, is it that eternal hope in future and post-mortal acceptance of the gospel that allows for a very broad accepting approach?

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15 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

The others I'm all-in on. However, this statement concerns me. To offer an example of why consider that Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet of God (Peace Be Upon Him). They do not believe Him to be the Son of God, or God. In LDS teaching on the Plan of Salvation, a sincere Muslim would likely end up in the Terrestial Kingdom--a heavenly realm. His reward would be due to Christ's saving work. Jesus is his savior, whether he knows it or not. (All of this assumes he does not fully embrace the teachings he receives in the life to come). So...would you acknowledge with a Muslim 'our mutual Savior Jesus Christ?'

Jesus Christ is the Muslims Savior, the same as you, I, an atheist, etc.  They may not realize it, and during this life they may not visibly accept Him, or perhaps only do so to a small degree.  But He's still everyone's Savior. 

I obviously have a major disagreement with a Muslim about acknowledging and embracing Christ as our Savior.   While I acknowledge this, I also still acknowledge the other good things about the Muslim's faith and actions.  Acknowledging the good and the disagreements.  

9 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

We accept people where they are today--of course, always hoping for a greater tomorrow. Today, I am not LDS. I might become LDS in the future, or, perhaps in the after life if mortality's gospel presentation was not sufficient. However, there is a strong possibility that I will end up in the Terrestial Kingdom. @Scott, @Jane_Doe and many others here likely strive for the Celestial Kingdom. Part of what would lead us to different heavenly kingdoms is our understanding of our mutual savior. If the Church is right, my understanding is deficient. It may not be the sole factor keeping me from the Celestial Kingdom, but it is a factor. It may be that I clung stubbornly and unrighteously to my traditional beliefs out of pride. (Please understand I am just trying to paint a scenario...). If I am even partially understanding this, then Jesus might be savior to all of us, but there is not enough mutuality among us that we will end up in the same realm. Does this make sense? Or, is it that eternal hope in future and post-mortal acceptance of the gospel that allows for a very broad accepting approach?

We're not treating anyone differently depending on their exact glory in the next life.  We A) Don't have that information and B) even if we did, it didn't matter because we embrace sinner and saintly folks the same.

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15 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

So...would you acknowledge with a Muslim 'our mutual Savior Jesus Christ?'

When the final horn sounds and all have acknowledged that Jesus is the Christ, I don't expect to have a problem with Muslims or Krishnas or Christians or Atheists or myself who finally came to a correct Christology by different theological pathways.

In the here and now, though.... Sharing a pew with a Muslim whose Christology is that Christ was nothing more than a prophet (and maybe even a lesser prophet than Muhammed)? I don't know. I think I can do that, if we can mutually agree to respectfully disagree on our Christology (I realize there is much more than just the Christology at stake, too).

Sharing a pew with a Jehovah's Witness who, if I understand their Christology, believes that Christ is less than God, but greater than man and has the unique position of being our redeemer? I don't know. I think I can do that, again if we can respectfully agree to disagree on the Christology.

Sharing a pew with a Nicene Trinitarian? I can probably do that with the same caveat.

Sharing a pew with a Modalist? I can probably do that with the same caveat.

But, then I want to ask myself, "Are there no boundaries at all around my belief system? No specific beliefs that are required for me to be comfortable worshiping with someone else?" Maybe I'm just all wishy-washy like Charlie Brown. Is there no level of doctrinal purity that I will require to be considered "in fellowship" with someone?

I think I had better stop there, before I start questioning whether I even can know my own name and my mother's maiden name.

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5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

But, then I want to ask myself, "Are there no boundaries at all around my belief system? No specific beliefs that are required for me to be comfortable worshiping with someone else?" Maybe I'm just all wishy-washy like Charlie Brown. Is there no level of doctrinal purity that I will require to be considered "in fellowship" with someone?

For me, the big thing is what point is being celebrated?

If person A is celebrating/worshiping a point I agree on, then I of course feel free to join them.

If person B is celebrating/worshiping a point I DISagree on, then I of course I'm not going to join them.  

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18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

We're not treating anyone differently depending on their exact glory in the next life.  We A) Don't have that information and B) even if we did, it didn't matter because we embrace sinner and saintly folks the same.

I can love and appreciate people very different from myself. One of our staff is literally Pagan--he's awesome--and very respectful of Christian spirituality. There are ways in which he impresses me more than some of my fellow believers. However, can I have the same kind of fellowship with him as I do with those of like precious faith? I do not find it arrogant or off-putting for those of the same faith to find special bonds and connections. When Jesus said his followers would be known for their love, I suspect he meant primarily the way we love each other.

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1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

I can love and appreciate people very different from myself. One of our staff is literally Pagan--he's awesome--and very respectful of Christian spirituality. There are ways in which he impresses me more than some of my fellow believers

Awesome!

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

 However, can I have the same kind of fellowship with him as I do with those of like precious faith? I do not find it arrogant or off-putting for those of the same faith to find special bonds and connections. When Jesus said his followers would be known for their love, I suspect he meant primarily the way we love each other.

For you friend "Mike": you celebrate the points of agreement and goodness the two of your share, treating him with love, when his actions/beliefs are sinful and when they're saintly.  

You do the time with your friend "Bob" and "Sarah" and "Taylor".  It doesn't matter which if "Bob" or "Taylor" is Pagan or Muslim or sitting in the literal pew as you.  

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

For me, the big thing is what point is being celebrated?

If person A is celebrating/worshiping a point I agree on, then I of course feel free to join them.

If person B is celebrating/worshiping a point I DISagree on, then I of course I'm not going to join them.  

It may be that we are looking at opposite sides of the same coin. I want to protect the integrity of the faith, and you want to leave open the redemption of souls. Perhaps by way of explanation, I look back with appreciation on Rev. Jerry Falwell Sr.'s outreach to LDS to join and support his Moral Majority movement. He did not agree with your theology, but, as a fundamental Baptist he likely would have hard serious issues with Pentecostals too. However, if you and I were willing to join him in opposing legalized abortion, gambling, etc. then he was all about us doing so. I suppose you could say these were points we agreed on, and so we were welcome to join.

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1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

It may be that we are looking at opposite sides of the same coin. I want to protect the integrity of the faith, and you want to leave open the redemption of souls. Perhaps by way of explanation, I look back with appreciation on Rev. Jerry Falwell Sr.'s outreach to LDS to join and support his Moral Majority movement. He did not agree with your theology, but, as a fundamental Baptist he likely would have hard serious issues with Pentecostals too. However, if you and I were willing to join him in opposing legalized abortion, gambling, etc. then he was all about us doing so. I suppose you could say these were points we agreed on, and so we were welcome to join.

I don't see Christ's Gospel as something that needs me to defend it-- His power is absolute and strong without me lifting a finger.  In fact,  all the fingers I do raise are because of His power.  He wins/won this war.

As to the points factor: people sitting on the same pew are not clones of each other.  There are some folks whom share my pew on Sunday that I don't agree on certain points of their beliefs/actions, and I  cannot join them in celebrating those specific points.  I suspect it is the same with the pew you sit on? 

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11 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

However, can I have the same kind of fellowship with him as I do with those of like precious faith?

Considering what I wrote above, I think I have to answer, "no" to this one. I do not share the same fellowship with a muslim that I would share with a Catholic that I would share with a Protestant that I would share with a fellow Latter-day Saint. Even within this last category, there can be differences, so it feels more like a sliding scale rather than a "in fellowship/out of fellowship" binary. But I also don't see any clear lines where I can say that I won't share a pew with ________, either.

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On 7/16/2019 at 5:30 PM, MrShorty said:

https://broadview.org/its-time-christians-start-including-latter-day-saints/?fbclid=IwAR2A9PteT9jN5epVRhGee0NfRE_sFJVcszRXw2uNMFDjmpFrFfnHCixlH-A

The author claims to be a former president of the Canadian Council of Churches, and simply argues that "[The Mormons] should be welcomed to walk alongside the rest of us." The comments section certainly shows that not all agree with Rev. Christie. I guess it just shows that, while there are the counter-cult minsitries and individuals like Dr. Jeffress out there, there are also many who are more welcoming. The belief that Mormons aren't Christian is not universal.

 

Your good works are coming back to you...... even though it takes time.

After the six minute mark in this video is a story about a young man who is now grown up who was somehow told by Jesus to NOT accept the training to become a fighter pilot but instead become a flight attendant........  and a pilot who is a Latter day Saint was somehow told by Jesus to give this man two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of flight training for free......... This man will be able to bring you Latter day Saints to a greater place as more and more Christians come to know this story.  

 

 

 

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After reading only a few posts on this topic I would say that,

Christianity is based on Paul's doctrine,the 3 major 

1-atonement doctrine in it's few interpretations

2-predestiny doctrine

3-Paul's understanding of the Trinity concept-(Jesus is God),not John the Apostle's

Paul's christianity smothers Jesus' true teaching of salvation we can find where one man asked Jesus how to have eternal life.

The idea of who you want to identify yourself with is a moot point and is sectarianism which is a disease.

It is funny but understandable that all sects of religion will openly state ,this teaching of our holy book is the way, follow me .

However there can only be one truth,one God,one Jesus,one Trinity,etc,

Sectarianism is what drives people away.

One does not need the added baggage of another's weight to be accepted as others accept another.

Jesus' response to the man's question says it all .

We must remember that the temple we are building is not built with hands

And the ark of the covenant we are building is not does not disperse the water we drink

Thanks 

 

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On 7/16/2019 at 2:39 PM, Vort said:

Maybe it's frowned upon for me to say so, but...if I were a so-called traditional Christian, I wouldn't include Latter-day Saints as Christians, either, at least not in an all-inclusive way. The fact alone of the existence and acceptance of the Book of Mormon, not to mention having yet other books of scritpure, modern prophets, a quorum of twelve apostles, and an active effort to proselytize people away from traditional Christian churches, would put them on the wrong side of what my ideas of "Christianity" would almost certainly include.

As a Latter-day Saint, I obviously believe we are Christians—in point of fact, the only true Christians. But in my beneficence, I am generously willing to extend that label to most of those who want to claim it, even though they may not quite live up to what I believe are the elements of a Christian. But then, when the guy who denies the divinity of Jesus and says that the "atonement" was merely a fairy tale wants to claim the title, I privately do not agree to that. So it would be inconsistent, if not hypocritical, for me to raise a huge stink about traditional Christians wanting to deny me the title.

If we're going to go by personal definitions of what I Christian is, then anybody can say everyone else is not a Christian. The fact that there are so many diverse Christian sects, the definition of a Christian has to be generic enough to include Catholic and Protestant times 1000 or so sects, all with differing doctrines. That definition is simple which basically goes like this: if they claim they follow the teachings of Christ, they are a Christian. I find that to be an acceptable definition and am willing to abide by it.

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On 1/26/2020 at 4:09 PM, Earl said:

Paul's christianity smothers Jesus' true teaching of salvation we can find where one man asked Jesus how to have eternal life.

I have to disagree with this statement. Paul's teachings are spot on with the teachings of Christ. modern Christian interpretation of Paul smothers Christ's true teachings. That's another problem altogether.

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On 7/16/2019 at 4:30 PM, MrShorty said:

https://broadview.org/its-time-christians-start-including-latter-day-saints/?fbclid=IwAR2A9PteT9jN5epVRhGee0NfRE_sFJVcszRXw2uNMFDjmpFrFfnHCixlH-A

The author claims to be a former president of the Canadian Council of Churches, and simply argues that "[The Mormons] should be welcomed to walk alongside the rest of us." The comments section certainly shows that not all agree with Rev. Christie. I guess it just shows that, while there are the counter-cult minsitries and individuals like Dr. Jeffress out there, there are also many who are more welcoming. The belief that Mormons aren't Christian is not universal.

I'm not in any denomination. The thing is, is that the protestant, especially evangelical movement is a cult...

Edited by e v e
I've a bad cold for two weeks and I can't type. So I had a typo.

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On 7/16/2019 at 5:30 PM, MrShorty said:

https://broadview.org/its-time-christians-start-including-latter-day-saints/?fbclid=IwAR2A9PteT9jN5epVRhGee0NfRE_sFJVcszRXw2uNMFDjmpFrFfnHCixlH-A

The author claims to be a former president of the Canadian Council of Churches, and simply argues that "[The Mormons] should be welcomed to walk alongside the rest of us." The comments section certainly shows that not all agree with Rev. Christie. I guess it just shows that, while there are the counter-cult minsitries and individuals like Dr. Jeffress out there, there are also many who are more welcoming. The belief that Mormons aren't Christian is not universal.

My apologies in advance if I already posted this but........

the thought crossed my mind several times over these last months that the lack of attention that is being given to near death expereincer 

Mr. Dean Braxton and his wife Marilyn is rather deafening.  Mrs. Marilyn Braxton prayed with her whole heart and her husband was 

essentially "resurrected" after flatlining for an hour and forty five minutes.  If high profile Latter day Saints were to do documentaries on

the Dean Braxton and Marilyn Braxton case I believe that many non LDS Christians who recognize this case as a genuine series of miracles would

tend to give more credit to Latter day Saint documentary producers for giving credit where credit is due.

I recently put a discussion on ChristianForums .com entitled......  (and I submitted the idea that perhaps our tendency to be biased toward our own

denomination could perhaps be at the core of why this astonishing case was not getting the attention that I personally think that it should).

"Did Mrs. Marilyn Braxton pray in an especially effective manner?"

Edited by DennisTate
grammar

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On 7/16/2019 at 4:30 PM, MrShorty said:

https://broadview.org/its-time-christians-start-including-latter-day-saints/?fbclid=IwAR2A9PteT9jN5epVRhGee0NfRE_sFJVcszRXw2uNMFDjmpFrFfnHCixlH-A

The author claims to be a former president of the Canadian Council of Churches, and simply argues that "[The Mormons] should be welcomed to walk alongside the rest of us." The comments section certainly shows that not all agree with Rev. Christie. I guess it just shows that, while there are the counter-cult minsitries and individuals like Dr. Jeffress out there, there are also many who are more welcoming. The belief that Mormons aren't Christian is not universal.

Any soul of His who wants Him is a christian. I don't know who Jeffress is, I don't read anticult stuff because honestly, it is so filled with modern scientific nonsense. The cult 'sociology' and cult 'psychology' disciplines are but cults of the religion of this world - Science as the new canon by which all beliefs are measured. Bah.

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Sometimes I see how people try to accommodate or bend their relationship with God to influences. In reality, why bother. The  point is not agreement from this world as to its truths. The truth is what He says, and not what his opponents go on about, being themselves total cowards who gave up on Him and became secular [religious!] sycophants.

Edited by e v e
typo

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On 2/9/2020 at 10:12 PM, e v e said:

Any soul of His who wants Him is a christian. I don't know who Jeffress is, I don't read anticult stuff because honestly, it is so filled with modern scientific nonsense. The cult 'sociology' and cult 'psychology' disciplines are but cults of the religion of this world - Science as the new canon by which all beliefs are measured. Bah.

Yes... those who seek Messiah Yeshua - Jesus will certainly find Him!

Those who Ask.... will receive the Holy Spirit!

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On 2/9/2020 at 10:16 PM, e v e said:

Sometimes I see how people try to accommodate or bend their relationship with God to influences. In reality, why bother. The  point is not agreement from this world as to its truths. The truth is what He says, and not what his opponents go on about, being themselves total cowards who gave up on Him and became secular [religious!] sycophants.

 

I believe that these next ten to twenty years will be a time where Messiah Yeshua -Jesus takes over more and more and more and more in every heart and every mind that is sincerely seeking Him.

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4 hours ago, DennisTate said:

 

I believe that these next ten to twenty years will be a time where Messiah Yeshua -Jesus takes over more and more and more and more in every heart and every mind that is sincerely seeking Him.

I don’t believe in the world and hope I’m not here.  I only follow Christ. 

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1 hour ago, e v e said:

I don’t believe in the world and hope I’m not here.  I only follow Christ. 

What about the world of two centuries from now?

Do you think that what former Skeptic Howard Storm was shown could fit perfectly with predictions in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets?

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/exceptional/howard-storm.html#a04

 

The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.

 

The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.

 

And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.

 

There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.

 

What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.

 

People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.

 

Animals lived with people, in harmony.

 

People, in this best of all worlds, weren't interested in knowledge; they were interested in wisdom. This was because they were in a position where anything they needed to know, in the knowledge category, they could receive simply through prayer. Everything, to them, was solvable. They could do anything they wanted to do.

 

In this future, people had no wanderlust, because they could, spiritually, communicate with everyone else in the world. There was no need to go elsewhere. They were so engrossed with where they were and the people around them that they didn't have to go on vacation. Vacation from what? They were completely fulfilled and happy.

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