What are we suppose to learn?


Fether
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I was going over the CFM for this Sunday and was reading Paul's conversion story on his way to Damascus, and decided to take another look at Uchtdorf's "Waiting on the Road to Damascus" talk. It got me wondering.

We have stories like Saul/Paul, Alma the Younger, Zeezrom, Prison guards from Helaman 5, King Lamoni and his court, and others where they have the miraculous conversion stories. But then, used as a reference talk this miraculous conversion story of Paul, Elder Uchtdorf is saying "don't look for these experiences, go forward in faith". There aren't really any stories in the Scriptures where someone just lives faithfully step by step. The only people in scripture that I can think of that may have grown line upon line without any miraculous experience are scriptural figures that either did not play a "major" role or in reading it is clear that part of the story is missing (ie Shiblon, Corianton, Alma the Elder, Zeezrom, and others)

The CFM book says "While it’s true that Saul’s experience is unusual —for most people, the conversion is a much longer process" but there are a lot more of these "unusual" experiences in the scriptures than there are "usual" experiences.

What lessons are we supposed to learn from these conversion stories when the modern-day prophetic commentary is saying "go forward in faith and don't look for this kind of stuff"?

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What I really like about these conversions is that it shows that even in these cases they had not gone so far that the grace of God could not reach them. In the end, The Lord loves the persecuting Pharisee, the lamanite king, the corrupt lawyer, yes, even the Nordic saint (even though we are pretty stubborn), and is eager to give them the blessing of repentance

Edited by Nordic saint
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11 hours ago, Fether said:

I was going over the CFM for this Sunday and was reading Paul's conversion story on his way to Damascus, and decided to take another look at Uchtdorf's "Waiting on the Road to Damascus" talk. It got me wondering.

We have stories like Saul/Paul, Alma the Younger, Zeezrom, Prison guards from Helaman 5, King Lamoni and his court, and others where they have the miraculous conversion stories. But then, used as a reference talk this miraculous conversion story of Paul, Elder Uchtdorf is saying "don't look for these experiences, go forward in faith". There aren't really any stories in the Scriptures where someone just lives faithfully step by step. The only people in scripture that I can think of that may have grown line upon line without any miraculous experience are scriptural figures that either did not play a "major" role or in reading it is clear that part of the story is missing (ie Shiblon, Corianton, Alma the Elder, Zeezrom, and others)

The CFM book says "While it’s true that Saul’s experience is unusual —for most people, the conversion is a much longer process" but there are a lot more of these "unusual" experiences in the scriptures than there are "usual" experiences.

What lessons are we supposed to learn from these conversion stories when the modern-day prophetic commentary is saying "go forward in faith and don't look for this kind of stuff"?

I would say we more efficiently learn the basic principles of conversion to Christ, not having to peruse any individual's lifetime journal. These events are more testimonies of what to look for in the attributes of Jesus, His doctrine and the first principles and ordinances of the gospel than of what we are to expect by way of our own depravity (most people are not persecuting Jesus and the saints). They show that His love and power ares greater than any opposition to Him, and that everyone has the potential to repent.

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My wife's grandpa has a "I was sitting on a barstool and was knocked off of it by a voice saying 'why hast thou abandoned me?' conversion story.

My wife has a "I was given a miraculous vision of the temple at one of the darkest moments of my life" conversion story.

I have a "I studied and prayed and received an unmistakable, powerful, undeniable, absolutely real answer via a sense I never realized I had" conversion story.

My old bishop had a "I've never felt anything like what other people describe as a spiritual experience.  I'm a chemistry teacher, and the reality of God is made manifest as I study the periodic table of the elements, or complicated chemical processes, from an experiment in the lab to watching a sunset." conversion story.

Another old bishop had a "I was praying hard about the things that worried me the most, and heard a voice plain as day saying "you're all right.  I'll take care of you"  conversion story.

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13 hours ago, Fether said:


What lessons are we supposed to learn from these conversion stories when the modern-day prophetic commentary is saying "go forward in faith and don't look for this kind of stuff"?

In most cases a visit by an angel is not because someone is one the right track making correct decisions.  It is the opposite.  It is my personal speculation and belief that there is symmetry in spirituality.  Joseph Jr.  was first introduced to Satan and his powers.  I believe it is best to avoid the symmetry of darkness and proceed line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept as recommended by the brethren. 

 

The Traveler

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When I read your question and thought this quote from Joseph F. Smith was brought back to my remembrance, "It is not by marvelous manifestations unto us that we shall be established in the truth, but it is by humility and faithful obedience to the commandments and laws of God. When I as a boy first started out in the ministry, I would frequently go out and ask the Lord to show me some marvelous thing, in order that I might receive a testimony. But the Lord withheld marvels from me, and showed me the truth, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little [see 2 Nephi 28:30], until he made me to know the truth from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and until doubt and fear had been absolutely purged from me. He did not have to send an angel from the heavens to do this, nor did he have to speak with the trump of an archangel. By the whisperings of the still small voice of the Spirit of the living God, he gave to me the testimony I possess. And by this principle and power he will give to all the children of men a knowledge of the truth that will stay with them, and it will make them to know the truth, as God knows it, and to do the will of the Father as Christ does it. And no amount of marvelous manifestations will ever accomplish this."

I also desired the same marvelous manifestations and experiences in order to receive a testimony. I discovered the same thing as Joseph F. Smith that the Lord taught line upon line, precept upon precept via the power of his Spirit in order to receive a testimony. In that light, then why do scriptures appear to focus on marvelous manifestations? Isn't this the reason why any member of the Church seeks these experiences to receive a testimony? These are thoughts I have come to believe:

1) Promises. There are times where a "marvelous" experience is necessary in order for God to keep his promises (the angel sparing Nephi from the rod).

2) Earnest. The restoration required a "marvelous" experience in order to restore Christ's church after the apostasy.

3) Faith & Obedience. It is safe to say that people who have more faith and their actions (obedience) match their faith they will have more spiritual manifestations that we would call marvelous. Gifts of the Spirit are given to some and a person that is gifted more with faith at an earlier age will have different experiences. I am, as a father, amazed at how different the Lord interacts with my children pertaining to marvelous experiences and an increase in their testimony.

I think there are more reasons but this suffices for now.  Then what are we to learn:

1) My wife pointed out this week to our children how we can't assume someone isn't willing or ready for the gospel. She pointed out to our children the "tattooed" Mormon. The Lord judges by the heart, not our outward appearance (even our outward actions).

2) I think the word "seek" is right, "expect" might not be the best word. We are to diligently seek after the Lord. How the Lord wants to reveal himself is not ours to demand. I find it interesting that Joseph Smith after having one experience knew -- had the faith -- to receive the same type of witness, but before that he was just going before the Lord to offer a prayer vocally and in private. He wasn't "expecting" or "seeking" such a marvelous experience. We are to seek, not demand or expect any particular witness to add to our testimony. Although, I would be cautious to say "never" seek a marvelous experience. We can seek, but should be grateful for whatever we receive and give thanks.

3) Humility to accept small witness.

I think this is sufficient.

Edited by Anddenex
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18 hours ago, Fether said:

What lessons are we supposed to learn from these conversion stories when the modern-day prophetic commentary is saying "go forward in faith and don't look for this kind of stuff"?

To me the lesson we are supposed to learn from these conversion stories is how to act after we've been converted. Paul, Alma the Younger, Zeezrom etc. all strove to strengthen their faith following their experiences. While miraculous conversions are by no means common, actively seeking to strengthen your faith after conversion is something we all must do. My conversion story is very ordinary. I just knew the missionaries were teaching me truth, I was 8 at the time, and I accepted it. I never heard trumpets, felt an overpowering spiritual experience, or saw something miraculous, I just knew it was true. But that knowledge was sure. I remember when I was in the MTC, praying to receive a sure testimony of the restored gospel of Christ because our teachers asked us too, and only receiving the feeling that I already knew it was true so why was I asking? Now I've had some sacred, spirtual experiences since then, including one so special I've only told my wife about it, but all of those came after my conversion while I was striving (and continuing to strive it's not a one and done process) to strengthen my faith. Paul and the others all sought to become true disciples of Christ for the rest of their lives, and I think that is the most important lesson we can learn from their experiences.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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7 hours ago, Nordic saint said:

What I really like about these conversions is that it shows that even in these cases they had not gone so far that the grace of God could not reach them. In the end, The Lord loves the persecuting Pharisee, the lamanite king, the corrupt lawyer, yes, even the Nordic saint (even though we are pretty stubborn), and is eager to give them the blessing of repentance

 

6 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

To me the lesson we are supposed to learn from these conversion stories is how to act after we've been converted. Paul, Alma the Younger, Zeezrom etc. all strove to strengthen their faith following their experiences. While miraculous conversions are by no means common, actively seeking to strengthen your faith after conversion is something we all must do. My conversion story is very ordinary. I just knew the missionaries were teaching me truth, I was 8 at the time, and I accepted it. I never heard trumpets, felt an overpowering spiritual experience, or saw something miraculous, I just knew it was true. But that knowledge was sure. I remember when I was in the MTC, praying to receive a sure testimony of the restored gospel of Christ because our teachers asked us too, and only receiving the feeling that I already knew it was true so why was I asking? Now I've had some sacred, spirtual expereicnes since then, including one so special I've only told my wife about it, but all of those came after my conversion while I was striving (and continuing to strive it's not a one and done process) to strengthen my faith. Paul and the others all sought to become true disciples of Christ for the rest of their lives, and I think that is the most important lesson we can learn from their experiences.

These are both fantastic, your @Midwest LDS spoke to me, I definitely felt the spirit as I read it. Thank you for your insight!

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Alma the Younger's "conversion" story is amazing and inspiring.  When people bring it up as an example, I like to then reference Alma 5:45-46

Quote

45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I aknow of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made aknown unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have bfasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of crevelation which is in me.

After his visit from the angel, he still had to study, fast and pray to receive revelation through the Holy Ghost. Laman and Lemuel show us that angelic visits or rebukes do not necessarily lead to conversion.  It is really through the visitation of the Spirit due to having a broken heart and contrite spirit.  Or more accurately multiple visits.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Mores
On 7/20/2019 at 8:16 PM, Fether said:

I was going over the CFM for this Sunday and was reading Paul's conversion story on his way to Damascus, and decided to take another look at Uchtdorf's "Waiting on the Road to Damascus" talk. It got me wondering.

We have stories like Saul/Paul, Alma the Younger, Zeezrom, Prison guards from Helaman 5, King Lamoni and his court, and others where they have the miraculous conversion stories. But then, used as a reference talk this miraculous conversion story of Paul, Elder Uchtdorf is saying "don't look for these experiences, go forward in faith". There aren't really any stories in the Scriptures where someone just lives faithfully step by step. The only people in scripture that I can think of that may have grown line upon line without any miraculous experience are scriptural figures that either did not play a "major" role or in reading it is clear that part of the story is missing (ie Shiblon, Corianton, Alma the Elder, Zeezrom, and others)

The CFM book says "While it’s true that Saul’s experience is unusual —for most people, the conversion is a much longer process" but there are a lot more of these "unusual" experiences in the scriptures than there are "usual" experiences.

What lessons are we supposed to learn from these conversion stories when the modern-day prophetic commentary is saying "go forward in faith and don't look for this kind of stuff"?

The actual grandiose vision and being struck blind and immediate turning to Christ is rare, indeed.  But the process he went through still gives us a metaphor for conversion.

On my mission, I heard more than a few shout the phrase,"It was like the scales fell from my eyes!"  There is a lesson to be had there.

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On 7/21/2019 at 8:04 AM, NeuroTypical said:

My wife's grandpa has a "I was sitting on a barstool and was knocked off of it by a voice saying 'why hast thou abandoned me?' conversion story.

My wife has a "I was given a miraculous vision of the temple at one of the darkest moments of my life" conversion story.

I have a "I studied and prayed and received an unmistakable, powerful, undeniable, absolutely real answer via a sense I never realized I had" conversion story.

My old bishop had a "I've never felt anything like what other people describe as a spiritual experience.  I'm a chemistry teacher, and the reality of God is made manifest as I study the periodic table of the elements, or complicated chemical processes, from an experiment in the lab to watching a sunset." conversion story.

Another old bishop had a "I was praying hard about the things that worried me the most, and heard a voice plain as day saying "you're all right.  I'll take care of you"  conversion story.

Yes, these miraculous stories do happen, all the time. My mother, brother and I have all had experiences like Paul and others. People just don’t publish them for the world to make fun of because they are sacred.

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Guest Mores
On 8/2/2019 at 9:02 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Yes, these miraculous stories do happen, all the time. My mother, brother and I have all had experiences like Paul and others. People just don’t publish them for the world to make fun of because they are sacred.

In my experience, they are indeed rare -- among the overall population.  There are however, some people who seem to have the "extraordinary" experiences quite frequently.  A couple of notes about those whom I've known.

  • They don't appear to be any more or less righteous or spiritual than any other "pretty good" Latter-day Saint.  A few of them I've known actually have some righteousness problems.
  • They are not those "leader" types that you kind of wonder if they're going to become general authorities or anything like that.  A lot of them are just plain average Joes (or Janes).
  • I have no reason to doubt what these people I've known have said.  They seem to be honest and not out to make a show or get attention.  They're just talking about it like going to the store for groceries.

IOW, there doesn't seem to be any special "bar" to cross to be this type of person.  At least, I haven't been able to figure it out yet.  What I have noticed, though, is that those that have experiences along these lines, continue to have them.  Others who don't, may rarely or never experience them despite having tremendous testimonies, faith, and righteousness.

I don't claim to have in depth knowledge of all these people.  Just some of them.  But overall, they don't happen all that often.  I say this because whenever discussions like this come up, the great majority of respondents always say, "Why have I never had such an experience?"  or they even say that they've never even met anyone with such experiences.

Edited by Mores
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