Trump vs Elijah Cummings – Is Baltimore worse than the border?


Traveler

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Just now, anatess2 said:

Sure.  But that has nothing to do with what the President did.

Oh, you’ve long since convinced me that the president is often a much more effective, savvy, and devious communicator than I was initially inclined to give him credit for.  :D

I’m not saying he’s posting racist dog whistles or anything like that.  I’m just saying that these tweets aren’t occurring in a vacuum, and he knows that.  

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6 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 it’s that the incompetent Cumming and the boobs who elected him have zero credibility in setting national policy and/or telling those of us in functional America how to run our lives. 

Which, frankly, is true; as far as I’m concerned.

But it’s not a very nice thing to say—and perhaps not very useful if you’re trying to forge/maintain a nation’s identity.  

This...  While no one is perfect... the saying goes "Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" 

I know dysfunctional people trying to dictate to me things like morality and ethics from a media bully pulpit is a huge peeve of mine.

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Guest Mores
18 hours ago, Godless said:

Imagine you're a Baltimore resident and the president, your president, says those things about your home. I've seen a lot of "Yeah, it's a dump, but it's our dump". It's like when Charles Barkely talks smack about San Antonio. There's truth in the things he says. But no one wants to see an outsider trash their city on a national stage.

It's not that what Trump said is untrue (it's not), it's the callous way in which he's talking about a city populated with American citizens, many of them good people who haven't been able to climb their way out of poverty. Yes, Dem politicians are complicit. Yes, Dem politicians in Maryland have a shady history. But those are still American citizens living in that city. He's their president too. It's funny how, even when he's right, he chooses the worst possible way to say something. So now we have even more rhetorical ammo for the white supremacists who keep feeling more validated every day. 

Then why are Black Baltimore residents saying, Trump is right?

Why did Obama make similar comments and no one cried about it?

BE CONSISTENT!!!

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13 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Functional people are just people you don't know very well. 

Fair enough...  But if you want to yell and castigate me for my dysfunctions... while proudly displaying the very same dysfunctions...   Well then you should't be surprised if I ignore you or even do the opposite of what you are trying to get me to do.  (Stubborn Contrariness is one of my many dysfunctions)

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15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But it’s not a very nice thing to say—and perhaps not very useful if you’re trying to forge/maintain a nation’s identity.  

True statements.  But for an overall conclusion to be drawn, I think there is something you're missing in the equation.

You're still operating in a world that resembled something like what you grew up in.  We don't live in that world.  Before you say something along the lines of "we make the world what we want it to be..."  Yes, I know all that stuff that you're thinking.  I've said it myself even as we went through many years of what I'm about to describe.  But there is a point that I want to make.

  • We live in a world where Democrats libel Republicans with impunity.
  • We live in a world where a liberal neighbor can beat a conservative/libertarian US Senator to within an inch of his life an get a slap on the wrist for it.
  • We live in a world where a man who calls himself a female can legally force a woman to touch his genitals or close their business.
  • We live in a world where people are legally forced out of their livelihoods because of their Christian beliefs.
  • We live in a world where the US flag is considered "offensive" and "triggering".
  • We live in a world where Democrats do ALL the same nasty things that we ALL agree are mean and uncouth, but they simply walk away without any consequences, while Republicans must give ground with each encounter.  Every.Single.Day.

I hope that you at least agree with the overall image I'm painting, even if you may disagree with a detail or two.  So, given that, here's my point to counter what you're saying about it not being very nice.

Killing someone is not nice.  But we do it under self-defense.  We do it in times of war.  We only resort to it when all other avenues have been exhausted.

I believe this is a parallel.  We are in an ideological war that has spilled out into physical assaults.  People are KILLING each other, suing each other, harassing each other, the list goes on... due to ideological differences.  It is an epidemic and it is going unchecked.  No one in Antifa has been brought to justice for their antics in Portland.

And you're worried that the President says some mean words?

Then let's not forget @anatess2's point.  This was in response to a criticism for the problems on the border.  The President is doing the best he can with the resources that Congress has allowed him to have -- in spite of the fact that Democrat members of Congress are going to foreign nations educating them on how to game the system and flood all the detention centers.  Then they have the audacity to complain he's not doing enough?  Gimme a break.

***

I also want to clarify something.  I no longer believe that Trump is doing any long term planning with 4d chess or anything like that.  I think he's really saying things off the cuff.  But the fact is that he's so focused on just a few principles that really matter to most American voters, he just happens to hit home with those same voters.  And a lot of voters agree -- in principle if not in minute detail.

So, no, he's not some sort of socially strategic genius.  He's just being him.  And many Americans like what he's doing.  I don't think I have ever liked the man.  But I have liked much of what he is doing.

Edited by Mores
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Guest MormonGator
37 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Fair enough...  But if you want to yell and castigate me for my dysfunctions... while proudly displaying the very same dysfunctions...   Well then you should't be surprised if I ignore you or even do the opposite of what you are trying to get me to do.  (Stubborn Contrariness is one of my many dysfunctions)

I was just playing. 

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30 minutes ago, Mores said:

 

  • We live in a world where a man who calls himself a female can legally force a woman to touch his genitals or close their business.

Did I miss one of these happening here or is it still only Canadians with this problem?

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36 minutes ago, Mores said:

True statements.  But for an overall conclusion to be drawn, I think there is something you're missing in the equation.

You're still operating in a world that resembled something like what you grew up in.  We don't live in that world.  Before you say something along the lines of "we make the world what we want it to be..."  Yes, I know all that stuff that you're thinking.  I've said it myself even as we went through many years of what I'm about to describe.  But there is a point that I want to make.

  • We live in a world where Democrats libel Republicans with impunity.
  • We live in a world where a liberal neighbor can beat a conservative/libertarian US Senator to within an inch of his life an get a slap on the wrist for it.
  • We live in a world where a man who calls himself a female can legally force a woman to touch his genitals or close their business.
  • We live in a world where people are legally forced out of their livelihoods because of their Christian beliefs.
  • We live in a world where the US flag is considered "offensive" and "triggering".
  • We live in a world where Democrats do ALL the same nasty things that we ALL agree are mean and uncouth, but they simply walk away without any consequences, while Republicans must give ground with each encounter.  Every.Single.Day.

I hope that you at least agree with the overall image I'm painting, even if you may disagree with a detail or two.  So, given that, here's my point to counter what you're saying about it not being very nice.

Killing someone is not nice.  But we do it under self-defense.  We do it in times of war.  We only resort to it when all other avenues have been exhausted.

I believe this is a parallel.  We are in an ideological war that has spilled out into physical assaults.  People are KILLING each other, suing each other, harassing each other, the list goes on... due to ideological differences.  It is an epidemic and it is going unchecked.  No one in Antifa has been brought to justice for their antics in Portland.

And you're worried that the President says some mean words?

Then let's not forget @anatess2's point.  This was in response to a criticism for the problems on the border.  The President is doing the best he can with the resources that Congress has allowed him to have -- in spite of the fact that Democrat members of Congress are going to foreign nations educating them on how to game the system and flood all the detention centers.  Then they have the audacity to complain he's not doing enough?  Gimme a break.

***

I also want to clarify something.  I no longer believe that Trump is doing any long term planning with 4d chess or anything like that.  I think he's really saying things off the cuff.  But the fact is that he's so focused on just a few principles that really matter to most American voters, he just happens to hit home with those same voters.  And a lot of voters agree -- in principle if not in minute detail.

So, no, he's not some sort of socially strategic genius.  He's just being him.  And many Americans like what he's doing.  I don't think I have ever liked the man.  But I have liked much of what he is doing.

I agree with the overall image you present.

But the thing about wars is, it’s better to have not fought and endured a difficult status quo until a more opportune moment arrived; than to have fought and been utterly destroyed in the sort of war you were never equipped to fight in the first place.  The American South, the Third Reich, and the Imperial Japanese all learned that the hard way (notwithstanding the fact that all three enjoyed breathtaking tactical successes in the short run).  It’s not just about whether you’re right; it’s about the world you’re creating for yourself, your allies and your loved ones through your decision to escalate the conflict.

I did not, and do not, think that in the long run conservatism can win the sort of open war that Trump has embraced.  At least, not if we want to maintain the current United States as a single political entity.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Did I miss one of these happening here or is it still only Canadians with this problem?

This particular case may be a Canadian case but the US 6th Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that the word "sex" in the Civil Rights Act is synonymous to gender identity thus making transwomen synonymous to women.  It is headed to the SCOTUS so we're gonna find out soon if Yaniv would win her case in the USA if it was litigated here.

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12 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I agree with the overall image you present.

But the thing about wars is, it’s better to have not fought and endured a difficult status quo until a more opportune moment arrived; than to have fought and been utterly destroyed in the sort of war you were never equipped to fight in the first place.  The American South, the Third Reich, and the Imperial Japanese all learned that the hard way (notwithstanding the fact that all three enjoyed breathtaking tactical successes in the short run).  It’s not just about whether you’re right; it’s about the world you’re creating for yourself, your allies and your loved ones through your decision to escalate the conflict.

I did not, and do not, think that in the long run conservatism can win the sort of open war that Trump has embraced.  At least, not if we want to maintain the current United States as a single political entity.  

Hmm... you think the neo-Marxist creep is just a difficult status quo.  How cute. ;)

 

Edited by anatess2
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11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I did not, and do not, think that in the long run conservatism can win the sort of open war that Trump has embraced.  At least, not if we want to maintain the current United States as a single political entity.  

This statement matches my expectation that we are going to follow the Nephi path as given in the Book of Mormon... (ie the government will be destroyed and we will break down into tribal organizations)

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33 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I did not, and do not, think that in the long run conservatism can win the sort of open war that Trump has embraced.  At least, not if we want to maintain the current United States as a single political entity.  

 

19 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

This statement matches my expectation that we are going to follow the Nephi path as given in the Book of Mormon... (ie the government will be destroyed and we will break down into tribal organizations)

There was NO WAY conservatism would have survived at all without the age of Trump.  All non-ideological Trump did for conservatism was to expose the derangement of influential liberals aided and abetted by influential people who everyone thought were conservatives and exposed how they held the minds of ordinary Americans in their grip.  Think about this... before Trump, conservatives thought Nancy Pelosi was the extremist. 

But more than the pathological ideology, it is the criminality that is being exposed in the deep underbelly of powerful people in all sides of the political aisle WORLDWIDE.

And yes.  Without the advent of modern social media, the age of Trump would not accomplish what it sought to accomplish. 

Edited by anatess2
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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

There was NO WAY conservatism would have survived at all without the age of Trump.  All non-ideological Trump did for conservatism was to expose the derangement of influential liberals aided and abetted by influential people who everyone thought were conservatives and exposed how they held the minds of ordinary Americans in their grip.  Think about this... before Trump, conservatives thought Nancy Pelosi was the extremist.  But more than the pathological ideology, it is the criminality that is being exposed in the deep underbelly of powerful people in all sides of the political aisle.

Given what I posted... what makes you think I expect Conservatism or any of the other political ideologies to survive? (at least in the form they are currently playing out)  Last I checked 3rd Nephi is about the political ideologies (and the other forms of -ites) being destroyed in favor of God's kingdom.

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12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Given what I posted... what makes you think I expect Conservatism or any of the other political ideologies to survive? (at least in the form they are currently playing out)  Last I checked 3rd Nephi is about the political ideologies (and the other forms of -ites) being destroyed in favor of God's kingdom.

You must've misunderstood my post.  I was addressing JAG's post together with yours.  I was giving you the foundation of how the entire political landscape of the age of Trump is systematically being destroyed exposing its dark underbelly.  That is, without Trump, Christian conservatism would be dead to be devoured by... non-Christian globalist politics for lack of a better term.  The age of Trump exposes the dark underbelly, not only of non-Christian globalist politics, but also globalists playing on the side of Christian conservatism.

Conservatism in this usage is conservative in relation to the US Constitution which, in this post takes into consideration that the US Constitution is divinely inspired.

Edited by anatess2
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I would clarify a few thing.  I lived in Maryland while working for the defense department.  I work on military bases as a civilian.  At the time I was happy to get out of Utah because I believed that criminals has taken over the Republican party in Utah.  I could give very precise details of graft and corruption - but as it turned out; what I experienced in Maryland - Utah was a puritan  Sunday school class in comparison.   The governor of Maryland at the time was a Democrat named Marvin Mandel.  Prior to him the governor was Spiro Agnew (a Republican).  The current governor is a Republican.  Is anyone getting the point - that it is not about party?  Marvin Mandel was impeached and removed from Office while I was in Maryland for corruption and embezzlement but if he was to run for governor from his prison cell - he would have won.  Spiro Agnew was not paragon of virtue.  When I was in Maryland it was a state run by organized crime - I am quite sure it still is.  The corruption is not a matter of which political party is in power - organized crime owned both parties.

I would say something about the education - While living in Saint Mary's County I was the Sunday School President in our Church branch (which at the time was more of a twig than a branch).  One Sunday about a dozen and a half kids showed up at church from an area that was referred to as "government projects".  They were good kids of a particular ethnic group but they were interested in the church - however, the few teachers we had could not handle them.  Not because they were bad.  I put all of them in one class and tried to teach the class myself.  Back then the Church had a teacher education program and I had also tried to be a teacher in Utah (completed student teaching).  I thought I could solve the problem.  The students ranged from grade 5 to high school.  These kids were illiterate.  Not only could they not read - they could not even identify and distinguish the letters of the alphabet.  Likewise they could not identify and distinguish numbers over 100.  I could go on with how poorly educated kids in high school were but hopefully some will get the point.  I decided to take  matters into my own hand and went to visit the kids parents.

I learned a lot.  The only parent I met with was not evil but they were not what anyone would call saintly.  I told them (her and her boy friend) that I wanted to help.  I was thanked but I was shown a gun and told I was not safe and that trying to help would only cause dangerous problems; not just for myself but from them, the kids and even my family.  They were nice enough to help (kindly escort) me from the "projects" neighborhood. 

But I was not done.  I had two friends from the branch.  One was a reporter and the other a federal law enforcement agent (postal department).   I went to them for advice and help.  My goal was just to get a hand full of kids enough skills to read and write.  What I learned was that I had walked into ground zero for the illegal drug enterprise and that nothing there happens without the permission of the drug bosses. Kids are just collateral damage.  I was advised that because of my exposure it would be a good idea to move out of state.

I left Maryland but what I have highlighted is hardly even the tip of an iceberg. Most likely, @Godless has good intentions but unfortunately he is very naive.  He thinks it is racial to call out conditions in Baltimore as subhuman.  Drugs reduce people to worse than subhuman.  It is a unstable culture that ruins people and destroys societies - top to bottom.  Rush Limbaugh and other conservatives are just as naive as @Godlessin thinking all we have to do is elect Republicans.  Trump has exposed the cancer.  I very much doubt that even if re elected that he will complete a second term.

I honestly believe if we knew what was going on in our government that we would drag out our elected officials and a great chunk of the bureaucracy and linch them in the streets.  I am not a prophet but I doubt that we as a people and society are going to get through this without a great deal of sacrifice that includes blood.

 

The Traveler

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59 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I agree with the overall image you present.

But the thing about wars is, it’s better to have not fought and endured a difficult status quo until a more opportune moment arrived; than to have fought and been utterly destroyed in the sort of war you were never equipped to fight in the first place.  The American South, the Third Reich, and the Imperial Japanese all learned that the hard way (notwithstanding the fact that all three enjoyed breathtaking tactical successes in the short run).  It’s not just about whether you’re right; it’s about the world you’re creating for yourself, your allies and your loved ones through your decision to escalate the conflict.

I did not, and do not, think that in the long run conservatism can win the sort of open war that Trump has embraced.  At least, not if we want to maintain the current United States as a single political entity.  

The Third Reich never had a majority in Germany.  I am reminded of a wealthy architect that saw WWII coming and wanted nothing to do with it.  He sold his business in NYC and bought an island.  He moved his family thinking to let the world destroy itself while they sat it out.  The problem was that he was on one of the Midway islands and ended up sitting out the war in a Japanese POW camp where some of his family did not survive.  Ignoring evil is not a solution.

 

The Traveler

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34 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 Think about this... before Trump, conservatives thought Nancy Pelosi was the extremist. 

 

No, she was viewed as the extremist in a position of political power. 

 

Most conservatives saw that there were a bunch of AOC's out there.  The thought that an AOC could get elected was not on just about any conservative's radar.

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20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

[1]There was NO WAY conservatism would have survived at all without the age of Trump.  [2]All non-ideological Trump did for conservatism was to expose the derangement of influential liberals aided and abetted by influential people who everyone thought were conservatives and exposed how they held the minds of ordinary Americans in their grip.  [3]Think about this... before Trump, conservatives thought Nancy Pelosi was the extremist. 

[4]But more than the pathological ideology, it is the criminality that is being exposed in the deep underbelly of powerful people in all sides of the political aisle WORLDWIDE.

And yes.  Without the advent of modern social media, the age of Trump would not accomplish what it sought to accomplish. 

1.  Really?  No way conservatism—either as an ideology or a movement—would have survived?  At all?  

That’s an awfully careless statement.

It is of course possible that, given enough time, conservatives could have eventually degenerated into a rump-of-a-rump or even gone the way of the Whigs or Prohibitionists under a timeline that doesn’t include Trump—though not terribly likely; unless or until the left felt comfortable enough doing a sort of latter-day Kristallnacht (which they’re much closer to now than they were three years ago).  

2.  That was (extremely) useful for the sake of middle America, but didn’t tell most right-wingers anything they didn’t already know.  And again, taking a cold war hot doesn’t help if you can’t win the hot war.  

I also note that for all this talk of Trump saving conservatism, we didn’t exactly hold onto the House in 2018; and Senate gains were below what they should have been given the map we had that year.  

3.  We always knew Pelosi was a sort of ideological gateway to harder stuff.  We do owe Trump a debt for getting the guerrillas to come into the open—if we can beat them.

4.  Sure; though some of this has crossed the line into conspiracy-theory histrionics.  (Romney, in the take from the Russians?  Puh-leeze.  As if the guy isn’t perfectly capable of eel-like behavior on his own . . .)

Y

ou must've misunderstood my post.  I was addressing JAG's post together with yours.  I was giving you the foundation of how the entire political landscape of the age of Trump is systematically being destroyed exposing its dark underbelly.  That is, without Trump, Christian conservatism would be dead to be devoured by... non-Christian globalist politics for lack of a better term.

Interesting thoughts.  Where does—you know—Christ fit into your doom-and-gloom view of Trumpless Christianity?

 

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50 minutes ago, Traveler said:

The Third Reich never had a majority in Germany.  I am reminded of a wealthy architect that saw WWII coming and wanted nothing to do with it.  He sold his business in NYC and bought an island.  He moved his family thinking to let the world destroy itself while they sat it out.  The problem was that he was on one of the Midway islands and ended up sitting out the war in a Japanese POW camp where some of his family did not survive.  Ignoring evil is not a solution.

 

The Traveler

No one’s saying we should ignore evil.  But D&C 93 gives us a formula for confronting it in a modern(ish) democratic republic: and to reject that counsel in favor of hiding behind the skirts of one evil person who promises to protect us from another, supposedly worse offender—that course of action seems dodgy to some of us.

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22 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I can't remember anymore if it was Podesta's emails or the El Chapo findings or some other court case that unearthed the fact that politicians - Mexican and US - are getting money from drug cartels.  But, in addition, Podesta emails, the Epstein case, I'm getting really sloppy... shows they're also getting children from child traffickers.  But, that doesn't negate the fact that the DNC registers undocumented immigrants and DACA adults to vote.

I agree with what you are saying but I have a question or perhaps just a statement concerning the last part of your post.  Deliberately registering illegals to vote, I believe is a violation of Federal statutes that involves prison terms.  If the DNC can be shown to be deliberately involved in breaking federal laws - those perpetrators could be charged with a crime and I think Republicans would be happy to do it if they had the proof.  

 

The Traveler

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19 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

No one’s saying we should ignore evil.  But D&C 93 gives us a formula for confronting it in a modern(ish) democratic republic: and to reject that counsel in favor of hiding behind the skirts of one evil person who promises to protect us from another, supposedly worse offender—that course of action seems dodgy to some of us.

Indeed... The scriptures talk about how God uses the wicked to destroy the wicked.  And how rulers can do right by the people while doing wrong personally.  That does not mean we embrace either type.  The Lord had given us his council and instructions for our personal voting whom we should support.  We can follow that as best we can, and trust that the Lord's wisdom is wiser than mans... Or we can call the Lord's council to be foolishness and look to man and his wisdom to save us.

And the interesting thing is as with many of the highly personal choices following God's pattern does not mean everyone is going to have the same answer.  After all we all do not work at the same job, or have the same spouse, so why should our vote be the same?

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44 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

No one’s saying we should ignore evil.  But D&C 93 gives us a formula for confronting it in a modern(ish) democratic republic: and to reject that counsel in favor of hiding behind the skirts of one evil person who promises to protect us from another, supposedly worse offender—that course of action seems dodgy to some of us.

I agree that it is kind of like observing two alpha predators fighting over who will eat us for their lunch.  We may be safe while they are fighting but not so much when the fighting is concluded.  Without a doubt Trump is spot on with pointing out cancers within our government structure.  He is also exposing the rhetorical flaws in the arguments that liberals have abused for decades.  

I do not believe that we have a democratic republic - or I should say that it is stronger now than it was in my youth.  In short, I believe we are losing our democratic republic and that very little in our economy is a reflection of free market capitalism - especially in the healthcare and banking industries.  I am not a fan of Trump but he has exposed a cancer that is destroying the health of our middle class society.  The Book of Mormon tells us that tyrants cannot be removed without the shedding of blood.   I am suggesting that we have crossed the point of no return if we think otherwise that we can preserve our liberties without such sacrifices that were made in the past to establish our liberties.  A cycle trend we see quite often in the Book of Mormon that was given for our time. 

 

The Traveler

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