Mass Shootings


Traveler
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I'm enjoying reading this discussion, but I just wanted to chime in. There are exactly 2 man made objects that can kill millions of people quickly (we've got lots of things that can do it over time). The largest nuclear weapons and weaponized plagues/chemical agents (and even those are iffy for casulties on that scale due to dozens of variables in the weather and local conditions). You cannot make either from the stuff in a Walmart. You can make large bombs and, given the right circumstances such as a successful attack on a large skyskraper in New York on a Monday, kill thousands, or tens of thousands if you get insanely lucky with multiple bombs in multiple skyscrapers, but that really is the limit. Not saying that wouldn't be horrible, of course it would, but it wouldn't be millions.

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11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. The Battle of the Bulge in World War II didn't kill that many people. 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki COMBINED didn't have that many deaths. 

You are thinking of deaths in terms of war and weapons of war.  This is the same mistake made in 9/11.  It is like saying - How many people can a handful of guys kill with a box cutter?  To say in thousands would be insane?  

 

The Traveler

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

  To say in thousands would be insane?  

You started off by saying "millions". There is absolutely no way someone could kill "millions" by getting stuff at Wal Mart. It's spreading fear and alarmism by saying so. 

Again, one death is tragedy. A thousand deaths is a thousand tragedies. So I don't want to downplay anything. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You started off by saying "millions". There is absolutely no way someone could kill "millions" by getting stuff at Wal Mart. It's spreading fear and alarmism by saying so. 

Again, one death is tragedy. A thousand deaths is a thousand tragedies. So I don't want to downplay anything. 

If you had never heard of 9/11 you would not believe that a few guys could purchase something at Wal Mart (boxcutter - for less than $10) and kill thousands of people.  Just because you have not thought of how it could be done does not at all prove that it cannot be done.

 

The Traveler

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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

If you had never heard of 9/11 you would not believe that a few guys could purchase something at Wal Mart (boxcutter - for less than $10) and kill thousands of people.  Just because you have not thought of how it could be done does not at all prove that it cannot be done.

Ok.  I see it vastly different. 

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22 hours ago, MormonGator said:

We're already there. We sue Philip Morris because cigarettes give us lung cancer. And we sue McDonalds because we can't stop eating Quarter Pounders. 

The part I'd think someone might win isn't that the burgers are bad for you; that's common knowledge. The salads are presented as an inherently obviously healthier alternative, but in reality, they're worse than the burgers. 

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On 8/9/2019 at 10:49 AM, Midwest LDS said:

There are exactly 2 man made objects that can kill millions of people quickly (we've got lots of things that can do it over time). The largest nuclear weapons and weaponized plagues/chemical agents (and even those are iffy for casulties on that scale due to dozens of variables in the weather and local conditions). You cannot make either from the stuff in a Walmart. 

Clearly you've never had my ex wife's chicken casserole. 

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On 8/9/2019 at 10:54 AM, Traveler said:

You are thinking of deaths in terms of war and weapons of war.  This is the same mistake made in 9/11.  It is like saying - How many people can a handful of guys kill with a box cutter?  To say in thousands would be insane?  

On 8/9/2019 at 11:07 AM, MormonGator said:

Ok.  I see it vastly different. 

There is a subtlety to what Traveler is saying that you might be missing.

1) It is true that there is nothing you can buy from Walmart (even if you bought out the entire store) that would have a direct violent effect that would instantly kill millions.
2) It is true that there are things you can buy from Walmart that would set us situations that would bring about the deaths of millions (meaning a direct causal link).  This could be in many different forms.  And depending on the form used, it would cost more or less. And the difficulty to apply said methods would vary tremendously.

But you are correct.  It would be very difficult to get into the millions.  And it would require a high level of knowledge in the art of death.  But the threat does exist.

Edited by Mores
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On 8/9/2019 at 11:49 AM, Midwest LDS said:

I'm enjoying reading this discussion, but I just wanted to chime in. There are exactly 2 man made objects that can kill millions of people quickly (we've got lots of things that can do it over time). The largest nuclear weapons and weaponized plagues/chemical agents (and even those are iffy for casulties on that scale due to dozens of variables in the weather and local conditions). You cannot make either from the stuff in a Walmart. You can make large bombs and, given the right circumstances such as a successful attack on a large skyskraper in New York on a Monday, kill thousands, or tens of thousands if you get insanely lucky with multiple bombs in multiple skyscrapers, but that really is the limit. Not saying that wouldn't be horrible, of course it would, but it wouldn't be millions.

Gas guzzling SUVs... kills the entire planet 12 years from now.

:D

 

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28 minutes ago, Mores said:

There is a subtlety to what Traveler is saying that you might be missing.

1) It is true that there is nothing you can buy from Walmart (even if you bought out the entire store) that would have a direct violent effect that would instantly kill millions.
2) It is true that there are things you can buy from Walmart that would set us situations that would bring about the deaths of millions (meaning a direct causal link).  This could be in many different forms.  And depending on the form used, it would cost more or less. And the difficulty to apply said methods would vary tremendously.

But you are correct.  It would be very difficult to get into the millions.  And it would require a high level of knowledge in the art of death.  But the threat does exist.

If one observes the universe - life is the great exception and by far the most rare commodity.  Our earth creates a very narrow and unique bandwidth of condition that allows life to exist here.  We both enjoy and rely on a few critical things in order to live and without which human life will end in minutes.  The Book of Mormon suggest that our every breath is a gift from G-d - a gift granted to the righteous and the wicked.  The reality is that death is the default of our fallen state and life is the rare exception.  On occasions G-d has warned that without his protection seemingly great things of man can be destroyed.  Some (many) have scoffed that any thing could cause their grand designs (cities) to fall and lives be lost.

To be sure I am not sent to warn that millions will die unless there is repentance.  All that I am saying is that there are empirically demonstrable scenarios that could result in the loss of millions of lives.  In fact there are things that could happen as an accident to bring about great disasters – especially if G-d did allow it.  “

Now a little story.  There is a story of Columbus that was being criticized at a banquet for taking too much credit to discover the Americas.  In response Columbus challenged anyone to balance an egg on its end.  Many tried and tried without success and finely declared it is impossible – that no one could do it.  Columbus then took an egg and smashed it on it end so it balanced.  Then he said in essence, “Now that I have shown you fools how to do what you thought to be impossible – any imbecile can accomplish it as a simple task.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Mores said:

There is a subtlety to what Traveler is saying that you might be missing.

Amazingly, I grasped what he said, I just disagreed with it. Still do. 

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1 hour ago, Mores said:

There is a subtlety to what Traveler is saying that you might be missing.

Even my feeble and clouded mind understood what @Traveler said, I just disagreed with it. But thank you for explaining it to me. Now I can go to second grade. 

Edited by MormonGator
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15 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Even my feeble and clouded mind understood what @Traveler said, I just disagreed with it. But thank you for explaining it to me. Now I can go to second grade. 

Gator,

I said "might be missing".

I don't see any justification for yo to take offense like this.

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10 minutes ago, Mores said:

Gator,

I said "might be missing".

I don't see any justification for yo to take offense like this.

Chill, I was playing. No offense taken. 

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I do not intend to resurrect all the discussion this thread has introduced.  But I want to add some thoughts as I have done more research on why there are suddenly so many mass shootings.  As it turns out, as often the case, the requirements that define what is in question has undergone a recent change in our government.  As it turns out that the official designation of a mass shooting now includes any event where firearms are used and 4 or more people have been killed. 

I wondered at this - because there are over 200 so far this year and I cannot count on one hand all the mass shootings this year that I know anything about through the news sources I use. How come I only know about 2 or 3% of them?  One possibility is because, for whatever reason, our news outlets only cover such events when a "white" guy nutjob was the gunman?  Whatever the reason I am beginning to think that most, like myself, are accepting conclusions based on incomplete information. 

As it turns out almost all the mass shooting cases this year have been carried out with someone already breaking current laws to acquire their firearms.  We already have a term for most mass shootings - it is called gang violence.  Which - BTW - if anyone is paying attention is directly tied to illegal drugs and poor enforcement of border laws and regulations.

So now I am concerned more than ever - if our news sources cannot provide better information how can we determine a best action?  I started this thread because I cannot find any stats concerning the few mass shootings so highly covered in the media concerning the shooter having used psychotropic drugs and especially if such drugs have a history of use with marijuana? 

It may be that we are trending towards taking guns away from citizens most needing to have them.

 

The Traveler 

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These "numerous" mass shooting (eight or more people being shot) are being severely misrepresented by the mainstream media. They are extremely rare. The way the news talks about it you would figure that ten happened in my local neighborhood this week.

I consider the mainstream media the biggest enemy of liberty and our Constitution. They continue to pour out fear, propaganda and deceit to the American public to change their minds on our Second Amendment liberties.  What they want is to enslave the common people.  

"...to disarm the people ― that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason

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On 8/9/2019 at 9:58 AM, MormonGator said:

You started off by saying "millions". There is absolutely no way someone could kill "millions" by getting stuff at Wal Mart. It's spreading fear and alarmism by saying so. 

Again, one death is tragedy. A thousand deaths is a thousand tragedies. So I don't want to downplay anything. 

I would disagree. In a previous post, I shared how a friend of mine committed suicide. It was with chemicals purchased at any local convenient store. The mix, according to my friend, is enough to kill humans within a minute.

If enough people decide to kill and were to plant a similar device that could deploy such in big cities, yes, the death could be in the millions. I am only arguing the point "absolutely no way."

True, we don't want to be alarmist creating fear. We do however want to be aware that nothing is truly absolute in this type of scenario.

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16 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I would disagree. In a previous post, I shared how a friend of mine committed suicide. It was with chemicals purchased at any local convenient store. The mix, according to my friend, is enough to kill humans within a minute.

If enough people decide to kill and were to plant a similar device that could deploy such in big cities, yes, the death could be in the millions. I am only arguing the point "absolutely no way."

True, we don't want to be alarmist creating fear. We do however want to be aware that nothing is truly absolute in this type of scenario.

I understand completely my friend, even though I do still disagree.

I know I've said it before, but I'm praying for you, and your friend. 

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Some more information - Sunday I talked with a friend.  This guy is from my era and served a mission in Mexico.  He speaks Spanish very well.  Following his mission he has used his knowledge of the Spanish language in his business and private life to help those in this country that speak Spanish as their first language.  He is currently serving a service mission in the Salt Lake Area working with individuals that live here and struggle with English.  Mostly he works with Spanish speaking.  There is not effort by the Church to determine that these individuals are here legally - there effort is to help individuals.  My friend says that it is likely that most are not legal but he does not ask or care as part of Church policy.

And so I asked - are those of hispanic origins frightened to shop at Walmart following the mass shooting in Texas.  Some may remember this being reported in the news.  My friend's response was a little surprise to me.  He said that the individuals he works with have been through much more to get here and despite the tragedy they still feel much safer here than they were where they came from and what they had to go through to get here.

Maybe we are looking at this all wrong.  Maybe we need to precipitate changes in other countries.  Maybe we should be more involved in helping to create a purpose for people to remain established in their homelands.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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On 8/9/2019 at 9:58 AM, MormonGator said:

You started off by saying "millions". There is absolutely no way someone could kill "millions" by getting stuff at Wal Mart. It's spreading fear and alarmism by saying so. 

I agree that millions is probably too many.

I was somewhat of an explosive expert in the military and have a strong background in chemistry.    I would never do such a thing, but I estimate the maximum people someone with a similar knowledge could kill by getting stuff at Walmart and from my former employer would be a maximum of around 5600 people (estimate only).   Most people wouldn't have the knowledge to kill even close to that; this would be from an expert who did a lot of planning and executed the plan flawlessly.  

I don't think you could do more than that unless you could poison an entire water supply or blow up a dam, but that would take a lot more than you could get from Walmart or most employers.    

 

 

Edited by Scott
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On 8/15/2019 at 10:54 AM, Anddenex said:

I would disagree. In a previous post, I shared how a friend of mine committed suicide. It was with chemicals purchased at any local convenient store. The mix, according to my friend, is enough to kill humans within a minute.

VX gas?
 

Quote

If enough people decide to kill and were to plant a similar device that could deploy such in big cities, yes, the death could be in the millions


I don't thing there is any convenience store or Walmart that would have a big enough supply to kill millions.   I don't even know if the supplies from every Walmart store in the US combined would have enough to kill millions.    

Just a guess, but I'd estimate that all the Walmarts in the US combined should have enough chemicals to kill at an absolute maximum of 500,000 people.

Edited by Scott
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44 minutes ago, Scott said:

VX gas?
 


I don't thing there is any convenience store or Walmart that would have a big enough supply to kill millions.   I don't even know if the supplies from every Walmart store in the US combined would have enough to kill millions.    

Just a guess, but I'd estimate that all the Walmarts in the US combined should have enough chemicals to kill at an absolute maximum of 500,000 people.

I don't know what the composition was or what it is called. It kills a human pretty quick though.

To note: my comment is simply specifying that nothing is absolute in this regard. If enough people decide to use the chemical composition in our major cities the toll could easily reach 1 million. The reality is low probability.

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18 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

To note: my comment is simply specifying that nothing is absolute in this regard. If enough people decide to use the chemical composition in our major cities the toll could easily reach 1 million. 

Not by shopping at Walmart or a similar store.   I seriously doubt that you could find enough chemicals at any one Walmart or any similar store to kill more than 100 people.   You probably couldn't even reach one million if you had one person each raiding every Walmart store in the country (there are almost 500,000 of them).  

Edited by Scott
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