Unpopular Opinion: Stuff taught at school


Backroads
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34 minutes ago, Vort said:

@anatess2, Wikipedia offers a pretty solid explanation of what is meant by a Differential equation.

Ok, I scanned through it and it sounds like what I know of as differential equations.  So I still don't understand how Differential Equations is a class of a "higher level" than Calculus.

Edited by anatess2
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37 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You win the internet, Fether!

Well... maybe so... but that only lasts until the next I let it slip that I enjoyed the new star wa-... I've said too much

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Guest Scott
9 hours ago, Vort said:

To some extent, I think this is an "ears to hear" problem. Every General Conference includes a statement like the following:

The Church follows the practices taught to its members of living within a budget, avoiding debt, and saving against a time of need.

Anyone who actually pays attention gets this at least one time every six months. 

I agree, but the above is a lot less specific or strict than what they used to say.  Church leaders used to say that the ONLY reasons to ever go into debt is for a modest house or an education.  You weren't supposed to go into debt for any other reasons.   Most of the more recent statements seem more generic and if they are specific, they are less strict in the guidelines.  For example, when I was younger, we'd be told that things like car loans are big no nos.  Since the early 2000's, they have become more acceptable and have been mentioned specifically by church leaders as being OK.

It's not only with debt,  but with food storage, etc.  They aren't as specific as they used to be, or so it seems.   We used to be told to have a two year supply of everything.  We are still told to have food storage, but it seems to be less specific now days.

I'm not criticizing our leaders for any changes, but just noticing that things are changing over time.

Edited by Scott
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I've always thought that school is less about teaching you things you need to know than exercising your brain in the art of learning. If you can pick your way through Euclid's grotesque proof of Pythagoras theorem then you will have no problem picking up the concepts of mortgages and budgeting. A good education is more like a skeleton key than a ring with many keys on it.

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On 8/8/2019 at 4:10 PM, Traveler said:

Students would wear clean uniforms to class and there would be grooming standards

Most schools here have uniforms for students and I think they are a good idea.  But I've always thought teachers should wear uniforms too to set an example.

I can think of two alternatives: (1) Make teachers wear academic gowns like they did in the old days, and (2) Design an "officer" version of the students' uniform, maybe a slightly different colour so teachers could easily be picked out in a crowd.

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On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:10 AM, Traveler said:

 

 

 

#7.  In order to be a citizen, serve in the military, own property (including a credit card or bank account), drive a powered vehicle or run for public office a student must complete High School.  Limited daytime driver permits (credit cards etc.) could be obtained when a student reaches grade 10 and they meet minimum requirements are under the supervision of a cognisant and responsible adult.  In other words if the student were to commit a crime (unpaid debt would be a crime) using a vehicle, credit card, bank account etc - the adult would be held accountable with the student and all temporary permits would be permanently suspended. 

 

The Traveler 

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#2. Students would wear clean uniforms to class and there would be grooming standards (similar to the military) kids being home schooled would also be required to wear uniforms and meet grooming standards.  There would also be a working class uniform (similar to the military).

 

I'm not as impressed with uniforms as I once was. I taught at a school that required uniforms... and I have never seen worse behavior/bullying/judging before or since. I know, I know, the uniforms are theoretically just one part of the equation, but I was still unimpressed. 
 

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#3. Teachers would have full authority and power in the classroom.  Punishment however, would not be handled by the teacher except to expel a student from class.  Parents would be free to request their child in any class they can get their child to and by which the teacher would accept the student.  Teachers would have final say in what specific students could attend their class.  Teachers would be paid based on the number of students that passed the class curriculum (same for parents home schooling.  If a parent cannot find a class for their child or if a child cannot pass the curriculum tests then the state would take custody of the child's education/training.  A possible exception would be special needs children - but children with special needs  that cannot pass the curriculum for a class would not be allowed to enroll.  Teachers that cannot teach proficiencies to at least 2/3 of the class would lose their teaching credentials. 

 

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it sounds delightful and efficient for the teacher to have authority in accepting which students. If my pay is determined on the success of my students (one reason I am wary of most theories of merit pay) I ought to be able to self-select the ones I feel confident teaching. As it stands in the non-King Traveler world, I have opposition to merit pay because of so many factors beyond my control--King Traveler would help level the playing field. That said regarding merit pay, a decent teacher ought to have the ability to get enough students in most populations to master a decent curriculum. 

On the other hand, would this push out not just the low-performing kids but the average performing kids? An enterprising teacher would of course only accept the best of the best. What leverage would parents have to get B-average Johnny into a class? And who is running and teaching the state-warded education? What benefits and compensation are those teachers receiving? And what of the teachers who are quite proficient at teaching special needs children with a modified curriculum? Speaking of those students, why are they and their families denied an education? 
 

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#4. Students would be required to obtain levels of proficiency in basic fundamentals as listed:

    A. Math

    B. Reading and writing

    C. Computers

    D. Science

    E. Religion

    F. History

    G. Finance - general economics and personal finance

    H. Law and public behavior

    I. How to use firearms and other weapons to protect themselves and others

    J. Music and the arts

    K. language.  All students would be required to be proficient in a minimum of two languages. 

    L. Netritution.  Including how to plan a balanced and health diet

   M. Physical education - Students would be required to be physically fit.

   N. Basics of Trades and Professional careers.  Students would be required to be proficient in a trade.

 

These actually aren't all that hard to find in the public/charter school sector if families properly explore their options. 

 

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#6.  Starting in High School grade 10 through 12 students can choose exclusive trade education or if they meet proficiency standards they can choose trade and career education.

I love this idea.

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On 8/9/2019 at 3:10 PM, Jamie123 said:

Most schools here have uniforms for students and I think they are a good idea.  But I've always thought teachers should wear uniforms too to set an example.

I can think of two alternatives: (1) Make teachers wear academic gowns like they did in the old days, and (2) Design an "officer" version of the students' uniform, maybe a slightly different colour so teachers could easily be picked out in a crowd.

Uniforms may be standard in the UK but in the USA uniforms are only in some private schools.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/10/2019 at 8:43 AM, Backroads said:


I'm not as impressed with uniforms as I once was. I taught at a school that required uniforms... and I have never seen worse behavior/bullying/judging before or since. I know, I know, the uniforms are theoretically just one part of the equation, but I was still unimpressed. 

Having spent some time in the military - Uniforms are a small part of regimentation but are at the foundation of regimentation.   The type of problems you are describing come from disrespect (poor enforcement - inconsistencies) of regulations and regiments.  From the military there is a great deal of history to indicate that morale is directly related to regimentation and that poorly enforced regimentation is the primary cause of morale problems.  As a side note - I have come to believe that individuality is way over emphasised in education.

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I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it sounds delightful and efficient for the teacher to have authority in accepting which students. If my pay is determined on the success of my students (one reason I am wary of most theories of merit pay) I ought to be able to self-select the ones I feel confident teaching. As it stands in the non-King Traveler world, I have opposition to merit pay because of so many factors beyond my control--King Traveler would help level the playing field. That said regarding merit pay, a decent teacher ought to have the ability to get enough students in most populations to master a decent curriculum. 

On the other hand, would this push out not just the low-performing kids but the average performing kids? An enterprising teacher would of course only accept the best of the best. What leverage would parents have to get B-average Johnny into a class? And who is running and teaching the state-warded education? What benefits and compensation are those teachers receiving? And what of the teachers who are quite proficient at teaching special needs children with a modified curriculum? Speaking of those students, why are they and their families denied an education? 
 

These actually aren't all that hard to find in the public/charter school sector if families properly explore their options. The type of behaviors your are speaking of is a sign of failing regmentation. 

 

I love this idea.

I intended to be a teacher but flunked spelling in college 3 semesters in a row - so I was forced to become an engineer.   When I was in college there was a movie titled "To Sir With Love".  The reality is that despite the claims that only good (smart) students perform.  The reality is that students engaged and motivated will always outperform more gifted students that are complacent.  This simple principle goes far beyond education into every facet of life - including sports, the arts, politics and sciences - to name but a few.

The reason I want teachers in charge of the classroom is because of the obvious reason that someone has to be in charge or there is chaos (this is reflected in our religious structure and callings).  Plus - in my mind the teacher is logically the best candidate for being in charge because they are the undisputed authority of the subject present in the classroom.   But there is a hidden reason that you may have touched upon.  There are personalities that clash and successful teachers know there are some personalities not suited for their classroom.  Forcing the two together will distract from the success of the rest of the students.

 

The Traveler

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Guest MormonGator
On 8/10/2019 at 10:43 AM, Backroads said:

 

I'm not as impressed with uniforms as I once was. I taught at a school that required uniforms... and I have never seen worse behavior/bullying/judging before or since. I know, I know, the uniforms are theoretically just one part of the equation, but I was still unimpressed. 

Having gone to Catholic school from 6th-12th grade, I can tell you straight up the bullying/judging/snobbery is far, far far worse at religious schools than at public ones. Uniforms have something to do with it. We used to make fun of poor kids who couldn't afford nice ties. 

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16 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Having gone to Catholic school from 6th-12th grade, I can tell you straight up the bullying/judging/snobbery is far, far far worse at religious schools than at public ones. Uniforms have something to do with it. We used to make fun of poor kids who couldn't afford nice ties. 

Mine was a charter (interestingly, one that had split off from a Catholic school but at that point such was merely a fun fact.) I suspect it was population. There were some wealthy families (because rich Utah families really like charter schools) but charter schools also tend to attract poor/minority and this was in the middle of the city. I think there was a lot of culture clash.

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On 8/8/2019 at 6:05 PM, anatess2 said:

Ok, I scanned through it and it sounds like what I know of as differential equations.  So I still don't understand how Differential Equations is a class of a "higher level" than Calculus.

That's like saying Relativity is "Higher" than Physics.  It's ALL calculus.  But as a matter of categorizing classes and names for subjects, I had the classes in the following order:

Algebra 1
Algebra 2  + Analytic Geometry
Trig / Pre-Calculus
Calculus 1
Calculus 2
Dif. Eq. 1
Dif. Eq. 2

There was a lot of overlap between the Pre-Calc and Calculus 1.  I believe if I had only studies for a few weeks, I could have tested out of Calc 1.  But I didn't know about that at the time.

The titles of classes and subjects are less important than the actual descriptions of what was had.  And it seems impossible to conceive that you're going to have partial derivatives and partial integrals without first being practiced in other methodlologies of Basic calculus (like homogeneous equations).

You mentioned "numerical methodology".  That was a new term to me.  I may have learned it and forgot it.  The definition seems familiar.  I've covered it in past classes.  But I honestly don't see much of an application in any field I'm familiar with except for computer science.  You certainly can't use it with keeping accounts.  But depending on exact definition, I suppose one could say that the simple use of significant figures and/or rounding qualifies.

Edited by Mores
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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Backroads said:

Mine was a charter (interestingly, one that had split off from a Catholic school but at that point such was merely a fun fact.) I suspect it was population. There were some wealthy families (because rich Utah families really like charter schools) but charter schools also tend to attract poor/minority and this was in the middle of the city. I think there was a lot of culture clash.

Speaking again from personal experience, I can tell you that everyone hates the rich kids, especially in blue collar Catholic schools. 

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48 minutes ago, Mores said:

That's like saying Relativity is "Higher" than Physics.  It's ALL calculus.  But as a matter of categorizing classes and names for subjects, I had the classes in the following order:

Algebra 1
Algebra 2  + Analytic Geometry
Trig / Pre-Calculus
Calculus 1
Calculus 2
Dif. Eq. 1
Dif. Eq. 2

There was a lot of overlap between the Pre-Calc and Calculus 1.  I believe if I had only studies for a few weeks, I could have tested out of Calc 1.  But I didn't know about that at the time.

The titles of classes and subjects are less important than the actual descriptions of what was had.  And it seems impossible to conceive that you're going to have partial derivatives and partial integrals without first being practiced in other methodlologies of Basic calculus (like homogeneous equations).

You mentioned "numerical methodology".  That was a new term to me.  I may have learned it and forgot it.  The definition seems familiar.  I've covered it in past classes.  But I honestly don't see much of an application in any field I'm familiar with except for computer science.  You certainly can't use it with keeping accounts.  But depending on exact definition, I suppose one could say that the simple use of significant figures and/or rounding qualifies.

Ok, I'm trying to wrap my head around your definitions - so, are you saying that a homogenous differential equations is not referred to as a differential equation?  Or is it, first order differentials are not referred to as differential equations?  Or is it just that the Calc 1 and 2 deals with derivatives but not equations?  Or is it that Calc 1 and 2 deals with how to solve differential equations but Dif Eq 1 and 2 deals with more complex equations and it's just the Class that is called Dif Eq?  Because that would be a different analogy than Relativity in relation to Physics - the analogy would be more - We have this class called Physics 1 and 2.  Then we have this class called Energy 1 and 2 that teaches Relativity... Right?

I dug up an engineering prospectus in the Philippines and found classes are titled the same as yours now - they have classes called Diff Eq now.  The oldest I could find was a 2008 prospectus.  I graduated almost 2 decades before that.  I couldn't find a syllabus so I don't know what's taught in it but it's probably the same as yours.  In 2000, the Philippines went through a 10-year transition where they slowly aligned Education to US Standard - for example, I went through 6 years of Elementary then 4 years of High School then off to College.  That's changed.  The Philippines adopted US Standard such that my nieces and nephews had to go through 5 years of Elementary, 3 years of Middle, and 4 years of High School with lesser load per year.  So, I guess the discussion is now moot.

 

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It’s like if someone says “Have you been through the temple?” And another responds “Yes! I do baptisms for the dead all the time!”

in a literal sense they have “been through the temple” but they haven’t REALLY “Been through the temple” until endowment

Edited by Fether
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20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ok, I'm trying to wrap my head around your definitions - so, are you saying that a homogenous differential equations is not referred to as a differential equation?  Or is it...

I'm not saying much of anything along those lines.  I'm saying that

  • We have the titles of courses taken at school. 
  • We have the actual definitions of the topics covered.
  • These two have no inherent (thus universal) correlation.

You're talking about your coursework as it there is a universal definition which differentiates (see what I did there?) the terms "calculus" and "differential equations".  There is not.  Your courses simply had different titles that ours did.  But it appears we covered the same topics in roughly the same order as you did.

As far as the definitions, I don't know how important that is to get into.

You'll have to forgive me about the mentioning of homogeneous equations.  It has been a very long time since I took such classes.  I remember that I took both Calc 2 and D.E. 1 from the same professor.  And I learned H.E. from that professor.  So...

After reflection, I do believe homogeneous equations were covered in D.E. rather than Calc.  I don't clearly recall.

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s like if someone says “Have you been through the temple?” And another responds “Yes! I do baptisms for the dead all the time!”

in a literal sense they have “been through the temple” but they haven’t REALLY “Been through the temple” until endowment

This makes sense.

I think I'm starting to understand what they're saying now, though.  I think where the Class Title comes from is... like this - Algebra covers only polynomials in expressions whereas "Algebraic Equations" covers using the expressions to solve equations.  I think it's simply a difference in perspective - I was taught in a way that polynomial expressions are taught as part of equations... So we're learning equations by first learning its parts.  Or in analogy - we're learning to go through the Temple by first learning about Baptism for the dead.  But the class is called Intro to Going Through the Temple, not Intro to Baptism for the Dead.

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8 minutes ago, Mores said:

I'm not saying much of anything along those lines.  I'm saying that

  • We have the titles of courses taken at school. 
  • We have the actual definitions of the topics covered.
  • These two have no inherent (thus universal) correlation.

You're talking about your coursework as it there is a universal definition which differentiates (see what I did there?) the terms "calculus" and "differential equations".  There is not.  Your courses simply had different titles that ours did.  But it appears we covered the same topics in roughly the same order as you did.

As far as the definitions, I don't know how important that is to get into.

You'll have to forgive me about the mentioning of homogeneous equations.  It has been a very long time since I took such classes.  I remember that I took both Calc 2 and D.E. 1 from the same professor.  And I learned H.E. from that professor.  So...

After reflection, I do believe homogeneous equations were covered in D.E. rather than Calc.  I don't clearly recall.

Yes, this I understand now.

You asked about Numerical Methods.  That's one of those Class Titles that doesn't really give you an inkling of what's taught in it.  It's like calling a class Math.  It covers different topics depending on year and department.  Like, Num Meth in Elementary would cover what you'd call Common Core Math.  Like, you have the Math Class which covers add/subtract/multiply/divide on paper.  Then a Num Meth class in 5th grade that covers how to do all that without paper.  Or Num meth class in senior year high school that covers derivatives not taught in Trig.  Or Num Meth in Engineering that covers infinite orders or series of diff eqs not covered in calc or analytic geom.

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