Holy Ghost - What do we know about him?

[mikbone]

The Holy Ghost

We do not know the Holy Ghost’s name, but we do know his gender. Jesus refers to the Holy Ghost with the pronouns he and him in John 16: 7, 13-14. And although there is some discord, the prevailing idea is that the personage that speaks with Nephi about the interpretation of Lehi’s dream in 1 Nephi 11 is the Holy Ghost.

1 Nephi 11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Marion G. Romney, James E. Talmage, Sidney B. Sperry, and Robert L. Millet all shared their viewpoint that the personage speaking with Nephi in 1 Nephi 11 is the Holy Ghost.[1] [2] [3]  These three references (the first is a General Conference talk and the other two are chapters in books) are excellent well written sources giving multiple reasonings as to why it appears that the personage is the Holy Ghost.

1) In 1 Nephi 10:17 Nephi states that he “was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”  And in 1 Nephi 10:22 Nephi testified that, "the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not."

2) Nephi never spoke of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Spirit of the Lord” when the Master appeared to him on other occasions (1 Nephi 2:16; 2 Nephi 11:2–3).

3) "Spirit of the Lord" phrase is used 40 times in the Book of Mormon and in all accounts, none of them describe Jehovah. In most cases, the Spirit of the Lord is used to explicitly describe the Holy Ghost. (Mormon 2:26, Mormon 5:16, & Moroni 9:4).

4) In 1 Nephi 11:6 the Spirit of the Lord uses the word Hosanna and worships both the Father and the Son. The word hosanna is from the Hebrew - ‘please save us’.

Offering the contrary perspective, Bruce R. McConkie in the 2^nd edition of Mormon Doctrine under the title of Spirit of the Lord writes:

"But when we read the account of the appearance of “the Spirit of the Lord” to Nephi (1 Ne. 11), we are left to our own interpretive powers to determine whether the messenger is the Spirit Christ or the Holy Ghost. Presumptively it is the Spirit Christ ministering to Nephi much as he did to the Brother of Jared, for such is in keeping with the principle of advocacy, intercession, and mediation, the principle that all personal appearances of Deity to man since the fall of Adam, excepting appearances of the Father and the Son together, have been appearances of Christ."

Personally, I like the idea that the Holy Ghost visited Nephi and directly taught him the interpretation of Lehi’s dream. Nephi knew instinctively that this personage was a spirit. Nephi does not say why or how he knew that it was a spirit, perhaps the appearance of the personage was obvious. D&C 129 is a great chapter that discusses the differences and how to distinguish between resurrected beings, spirits of just men made perfect, and devils (emphasis on verse 6). Joseph Smith also provided the following statement.

The spirit of a just man made perfect if he made his appearance he would appear or be enveloped in flaming fire and no man in this mortal state could endure it, but an angel could come and appear as an other man for Paul says be careful to entertain an strangers for some have entertained Angels unawares. But to prove spirits view the Saviour after his resurrection when he appeared unto his diciples. they were afraid and thought they had seen a spirit but he convinces them of their mistake by teling them to handle him for says he a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me have.[4]

 

Furthermore, the Holy Ghost spiritually manifested himself during the Baptism of Christ.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

D&C 93:15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.[5]

Image from the Book of Abraham -  Facsimile No. 2, figure 7

Figure 7 – Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove.

I have taken the liberty of isolating figure 7, enlarging it, and rotating it right side up because it is upside-down in the facsimile. God appears to be holding his left arm to the square with his right forearm held before him parallel to the ground. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding the arms thusly. The Holy Ghost had not transformed into a dove. Conspicuously, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in a similar position, although mirror imaged.

20.3.8     Instructions for Performing a Baptism

1. Stands in the water with the person to be baptized.

2. Holds the person’s right wrist with his left hand (for convenience and safety); the person who is being baptized holds the priesthood holder’s left wrist with his or her left hand.

3. Raises his right arm to the square.

4. States the person’s full name and says, “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen” (D&C 20:73).[6]

The baptism of Adam appears to have been performed by the Holy Ghost as well.

Moses 6:64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

We see the Holy Ghost associated with the Baptism of Adam and Jesus Christ. The mirror image of the Sign of the Dove is represented within every true baptismal ordinance, and the baptismal prayer ends in the name of the Holy Ghost.   The Holy Ghost appears to have a significant connection with the ordinance of baptism. 

 

The Holy Ghost is the Comforter, Testator, Revelator, and Sanctifier.  He can warn and protect and is the Holy Spirit of Promise.  The Holy Ghost can testify to the truth of all things.[7] But the Holy Ghost’s main charge is to testify that Jesus is the Christ.  The Holy Ghost usually answers our questions with “a still, small voice – a voice that is felt rather than heard. It is a spiritual voice that comes into the mind as a thought put into your heart.”[8] 

Of a personal note I have found that the easiest way to feel the confirmation of the Holy Ghost requires the following three provisions.  Please see D&C 9:7-9

1) Have a question.  And study it out in your mind.  The more spiritual relevance contained within the question the better.  For example, you are more likely to get a response if you ask a question about the nature and mission of Jesus Christ than if you ask for illumination to question 39 on an Organic Chemistry Final Exam.  Truth is truth, but let’s be serious.  The Holy Ghost is more likely to answer our questions if they are of an earnest matter. 

2) Ask the question in a sincere prayer.  And if at all possible, ask a question that can be answered with a simple yes or no response.  If we ask a question that requires a complex response, then the Holy Ghost cannot answer with a burning in our bosom.  Just because a question can be answered with a simple yes or no response does not mean that the question itself is simple.  It just requires the question to be well thought out and constructed.   

3) Ponder, listen, and wait.  And most important, be willing to accept a no response.  If you get a feeling of confusion, or a stupor of thought, then the answer is no.

Joseph Smith has also given the following commentary about the future of the Holy Ghost.

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.[9]

Holy Ghost Yet a Spiritual Body - But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again & the Scripture Say those who will obey the commandments shall be heirs of god & Joint heirs with of Jesus Christ we then also took bodies to lay them down, to take them up again & the Spirit itself bears witness with our Spirits that we are the children of god & if children then heirs and Joint heirs with Jesus Christ if So be that we Suffer with him in the flesh that we may be also glorified together. See Romans 8 chapter 16 & 17 Verses.[10]

The above sources, which come from two separate Joseph Smith sermons, agree that the Holy Ghost is currently an apprentice. And, if the Holy Ghost performs his role in righteousness, he will have the opportunity to take upon himself a body as the Savior did or as God the Father partook upon Himself a body. It is obvious that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father took upon themselves bodies in a manner that was extraordinarily different than the rest of mankind. Joseph Smith also uses the phrase to ‘lay down his life that he might take it up again’ which he previously used in the KFD to refer to Christ’s power to atone and resurrect himself (John 10:17-18). Based on the KFD and the above two quotes it appears that the Holy Ghost is on the same path of exaltation that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have trodden.

 

---

[1] Marion G. Romney, The Holy Ghost, Sunday Morning Session April 7 1974, Ensign Mary 1974

[2] Sidney B. Sperry, Answers to Book of Mormon Questions, Ch 5 Did Nephi Talk to the Holy Ghost in Person, Bookcraft, SLC, UT (1967)

[3] Robert L. Millet, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” in First Nephi, The Doctrinal Foundation, ed. Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr. (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1988), 161–76.

[4] Joseph Smith, General Conference, Nauvoo, Illinois October 9, 1843 as recorded in James Burgess Notebook

[5] Smith, Joseph Jr., Joseph Fielding Smith (Ed.).  Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, SLC, UT (1938) p.276

[6] Handbook 2: Administering the Church, Priesthood Ordinances and Blessings, The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Salt Lake City, UT

[7] Moroni 10:5

[8] Boyd K. Packer, The Cloven Tongues of Fire, General Conference, Saturday morning session, April 1, 2000

[9] Joseph Smith Jr., Nauvoo Illinois August 27, 1843, as recorded by Franklin D. Richards in “Scriptural Items”.

[10] Joseph Smith Jr., Nauvoo Illinois June 16, 1844 “Sermon in the Grove”, as recorded from memory by George Laub in the Laub Journal

[Guest Mores]

What do we know about him?

Not much.

[dprh]

I have a pet theory that is probably wrong, but it makes sense to me.

The Holy Ghost is a position, the spirit that fills the position changes.  Every spirit needs to gain a body to progress toward exaltation.  It doesn't seem fair to me to have one being that while in the Godhead would be eternally held back from all the blessings of Heavenly Father.

When our world was first created, I believe Adam/Michael filled the role as the third member of the Godhead.  When he was given a body, another spirit was 'called', I imagine it was Enoch.  

By extension, I also believe that the "Holy Ghost" is an organization.  That other spirits are granted a type of Priesthood power to act in the name of the Holy Ghost, similar to how mortals with the Priesthood can act in the name of Jesus Christ.  This is the method that allows multiple people around the globe to experience the Holy Ghost's influence at the same time.

Alma 18:35  talks about "a portion of the Spirit" dwelling in Ammon shows that the Holy Ghost is ....divisible? would that be the correct term? 

2 Nephi 32:3 says that "angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost."  This is where my idea of the Holy Ghost type priesthood came from.

Again, probably wrong, and if shown, I'll chalk it up to fan theory shot down.  

Edited August 12, 2019 by dprh

[mikbone]

6 hours ago, dprh said:

Again, probably wrong, and if shown, I'll chalk it up to fan theory shot down.  

We don’t know.  I have heard many theories.  Some of the theories I have heard...

Revolving calling as you mentioned.

Possibly a female like Heavenly Mother.

Another of our valiant spiritual siblings that is fulfilling a role like Jehovah but he will have to wait for the Millennium to receive a body.

I repeat, we do not know.  It is esoteric doctrine.

 

In my mind, he is a single person.  And one of Elohim's children.  His progression is way ahead of mankind but significantly behind that of Jehovah.

Before Adam was human, he was Michael the archangel.  And Enoch was likely the archangel Raphael.

 

I doubt we find out his identity in this life.

But we do know some of his powers, and we feel his spirit and influence.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by mikbone

[Traveler]

We really do not know much about anyone in the G-dhead.  We think we know some of Christ because he walked among us here on earth but in reality the total we know of his life would not account for much over a month of his mortality.  There is an old native American saying that you cannot know of anyone without walking in their shoes for at least 3 months.  I am not sure we know that much about the Father or the Holy Ghost.  Our only example of a G-d is Jesus Christ.  I believe this is because we are fallen and Jesus is the mediator.  The only way to know of any G-d or anything of G-d or G-dliness is through Christ - and for many trinitarians - I think their logic is flawed and confused.

 

The Traveler

Edited August 13, 2019 by Traveler

[Guest Mores]

30 minutes ago, Traveler said:

... but in reality the total we know of his life would not account for much over a month of his mortality.  ..

...you cannot know of anyone without walking in their shoes for at least 3 months...

Then I think many qualify.  I believe that there was a great deal of time where the Lord was walking from place to place.  Short distances, long distances...  If you've spent a good deal of your time walking, hiking, etc.  then we've walked in the Lord's shoes for at least 3 months.

And we can't walk in the Holy Ghost's shoes.  He doesn't have any.  But I believe His M.O. is to walk in our shoes.  

[Guest Mores]

@Traveler,

Based on your reaction.   I feel like I need to explain myself.

You had said that we can't know someone unless we've walked in his shoes for 3 months.  Then you pointed out that we may only know about 1 month worth of stuff from what the scriptures tell us.  So, what was he doing during those other times?

The fact is that he was doing a lot of the same things we do.  He ate, slept, went to the bathroom. He spent a lot of time in fasting, prayer, and scripture study... AND...

He went walking... a LOT...  When we "go for a walk" we tend to take time to ponder.  We observe things.  A sparrow's fall.  The beauty of the lillies of the field.  And we ponder "How Great Thou Art."  He didn't have a car.  Yet he travelled a LOT.  How did he do that?  He walked, and walked, and walked, aaaaaannnnnnddd waaaaaaalked.  I'm sure he sang while he did it too.

If you put all the times you've gone walking where you did these things, then you've walked 3 months in His shoes.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Mores said:

@Traveler,

Based on your reaction.   I feel like I need to explain myself.

You had said that we can't know someone unless we've walked in his shoes for 3 months.  Then you pointed out that we may only know about 1 month worth of stuff from what the scriptures tell us.  So, what was he doing during those other times?

The fact is that he was doing a lot of the same things we do.  He ate, slept, went to the bathroom. He spent a lot of time in fasting, prayer, and scripture study... AND...

He went walking... a LOT...  When we "go for a walk" we tend to take time to ponder.  We observe things.  A sparrow's fall.  The beauty of the lillies of the field.  And we ponder "How Great Thou Art."  He didn't have a car.  Yet he travelled a LOT.  How did he do that?  He walked, and walked, and walked, aaaaaannnnnnddd waaaaaaalked.  I'm sure he sang while he did it too.

If you put all the times you've gone walking where you did these things, then you've walked 3 months in His shoes.

A couple of years ago I visited "The  Holy Land".  One place I visited was Nazareth where Jesus spent over 80% of his life.  I also visited Capernaum where Jesus spent 80% of his ministry.   The impression I came away with is that all I thought I knew about the life of Jesus is likely flawed.  I will begin with Nazareth.  I was with a Jewish guide that is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He took us to a hill overlooking modern Nazareth and asked my impression.  I responded that this is an impossible place to make a living as a carpenter.  He asked me why.

First off there are no trees here and not much of a marketplace for wood products.  There are places in Israel with trees.  One might argue that all the trees have been cut down.  That is because they have not seen the place and walked there.  It is a great place to get rocks and not much else.  My guide pointed out that just behind us is a 4,000 year old rock quarry - still in use today.  The economy of Nazareth was anciently just as today - built around the rock quarry.  Our guide (proficient in Hebrew as his first language) pointed out that the scriptures say Joseph was a "craftsman" and the assumption in the translation is not accurate - Jesus and his father were most likely stone masons - not experts in wood. 

There is a song I have heard titled, "I walked today where Jesus walked".  I spend several days walking where Jesus walked.  I could tell you of profound spiritual experiences in many places that singularly dwarf the song by magnitudes.  I went to Israel thinking I knew history and that it would be fun to visit and get a feel for modern Israel and perhaps some insights into the future.  I came away with the impression that I know so very little about the life of Christ and just about everything I imagined was inaccurate.

Please understand, I am not marketing trips to the Holy Land.  My impression is that as much as we think we know (my experience) - there is so much more that we don't.  In all honesty I am inclined to think that those that pronounce they know Jesus and have walked where he walked are likely not as informed as they think - and those that do know say much less - pondering in the things of the spirit and keeping most such things close to their heart and private as pearls of great price.  Of this I guess - because what I have learned is that I have not learned near enough - I have not walked near enough in his shoes and as I have implied - I am most skeptical of those that think they have.

 

The Traveler

Edited August 14, 2019 by Traveler

[Anddenex]

On 8/12/2019 at 10:56 AM, dprh said:

I have a pet theory that is probably wrong, but it makes sense to me.

The Holy Ghost is a position, the spirit that fills the position changes.  Every spirit needs to gain a body to progress toward exaltation.  It doesn't seem fair to me to have one being that while in the Godhead would be eternally held back from all the blessings of Heavenly Father.

When our world was first created, I believe Adam/Michael filled the role as the third member of the Godhead.  When he was given a body, another spirit was 'called', I imagine it was Enoch.  

By extension, I also believe that the "Holy Ghost" is an organization.  That other spirits are granted a type of Priesthood power to act in the name of the Holy Ghost, similar to how mortals with the Priesthood can act in the name of Jesus Christ.  This is the method that allows multiple people around the globe to experience the Holy Ghost's influence at the same time.

Alma 18:35  talks about "a portion of the Spirit" dwelling in Ammon shows that the Holy Ghost is ....divisible? would that be the correct term? 

2 Nephi 32:3 says that "angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost."  This is where my idea of the Holy Ghost type priesthood came from.

Again, probably wrong, and if shown, I'll chalk it up to fan theory shot down.  

I would say the following scriptures make this theory hard:

1) Article of Faith #1

2) Doctrine and Covenant 130: 22 (the Holy Ghost is a single individual, three distinct beings in the Godhead)

Our earth life presidencies reference the Godhead. Death is the only reason these positions change. We also have note of a time where the Holy Ghost was not necessary. The Millennium seems a plausible time where the Holy Ghost would receive a body as the Son will reign personally on the earth.

[dprh]

First, @Anddenex, thanks for the feedback.  

Article of Faith #1. 

Quote

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost

I don't see anything in that short statement that says the Holy Ghost will always be the same being.  I think of it similar to saying I believe in the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 

Quote

The Holy Ghost has not body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.  Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

This states the fact that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a physical body.  I don't see that it means it has to be the same being the whole time.

49 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Our earth life presidencies reference the Godhead. Death is the only reason these positions change. We also have note of a time where the Holy Ghost was not necessary. The Millennium seems a plausible time where the Holy Ghost would receive a body as the Son will reign personally on the earth.

I don't think I agree with the statement that the Holy Ghost wasn't necessary during a period of time.  He was still present but not in the same influence.  Christ told Peter that the Holy Ghost bore witness to him which is what will stand against the gates of hell. 

I have considered that the Holy Ghost will be born during the Millennium.  And I think it might be, but I wonder about the timing. It seems he would have to be the very last body born on this earth before it gains its Celestial glory, otherwise, anyone born afterward won't be able to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  

Another thing to consider is do the other worlds that Heavenly Father have the same Holy Ghost that we do?  If so, then He can't receive a body until after all the worlds reach Millennial status.  Which I don't think will ever happen.

[Traveler]

58 minutes ago, dprh said:

This states the fact that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a physical body.  I don't see that it means it has to be the same being the whole time.

Just as a thought - I do not recall anybody being released from a temporary calling of "Holy Ghost" and second counselor in that presiding divine presidency.  Nor do I remember anybody new being sustained to that calling.

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, dprh said:

First, @Anddenex, thanks for the feedback.  

Article of Faith #1. 

I don't see anything in that short statement that says the Holy Ghost will always be the same being.  I think of it similar to saying I believe in the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 

This states the fact that the Holy Ghost doesn't have a physical body.  I don't see that it means it has to be the same being the whole time.

I don't think I agree with the statement that the Holy Ghost wasn't necessary during a period of time.  He was still present but not in the same influence.  Christ told Peter that the Holy Ghost bore witness to him which is what will stand against the gates of hell. 

I have considered that the Holy Ghost will be born during the Millennium.  And I think it might be, but I wonder about the timing. It seems he would have to be the very last body born on this earth before it gains its Celestial glory, otherwise, anyone born afterward won't be able to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  

Another thing to consider is do the other worlds that Heavenly Father have the same Holy Ghost that we do?  If so, then He can't receive a body until after all the worlds reach Millennial status.  Which I don't think will ever happen.

Thank you for the response. The Father doesn't change. The Son doesn't change. It would be the same for the Holy Ghost.

"We also know They are three distinct persons through the events at Christ’s baptism—when the Father bore witness of His Son and the Holy Ghost descended from heaven like a dove—and when Christ prayed to the Father as He offered the great Intercessory Prayer...Even though the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct personages."

I agree, "necessary" is probably not the best word. What I am referring to is that the Lord specifically said I will send a "Comforter" that was not at this moment, due to the Son's presence, there. Much like the Spirit of Christ in relation to Christ. The influence, his testament, was still there, but in light of the Son's presence he was not fully there. Even if born, his influence would still be there, much like the Spirit of Christ which is in all things although the Son is not present.

Another thing to consider is do the other worlds that Heavenly Father have the same Holy Ghost that we do?  If so, then He can't receive a body until after all the worlds reach Millennial status.  Which I don't think will ever happen.

I, personally, don't see much difference between this and the Son, Savior, being the Savior of more than our world. As the Son fulfilled his duty, the Holy Ghost will fulfill his duty to the end, whatever that is for him.

[Guest Mores]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

A couple of years ago I visited "The  Holy Land".  One place I visited was Nazareth where Jesus spent over 80% of his life.  I also visited Capernaum where Jesus spent 80% of his ministry.   The impression I came away with is that all I thought I knew about the life of Jesus is likely flawed.  I will begin with Nazareth.  I was with a Jewish guide that is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He took us to a hill overlooking modern Nazareth and asked my impression.  I responded that this is an impossible place to make a living as a carpenter.  He asked me why.

First off there are no trees here and not much of a marketplace for wood products.  There are places in Israel with trees.  One might argue that all the trees have been cut down.  That is because they have not seen the place and walked there.  It is a great place to get rocks and not much else.  My guide pointed out that just behind us is a 4,000 year old rock quarry - still in use today.  The economy of Nazareth was anciently just as today - built around the rock quarry.  Our guide (proficient in Hebrew as his first language) pointed out that the scriptures say Joseph was a "craftsman" and the assumption in the translation is not accurate - Jesus and his father were most likely stone masons - not experts in wood. 

There is a song I have heard titled, "I walked today where Jesus walked".  I spend several days walking where Jesus walked.  I could tell you of profound spiritual experiences in many places that singularly dwarf the song by magnitudes.  I went to Israel thinking I knew history and that it would be fun to visit and get a feel for modern Israel and perhaps some insights into the future.  I came away with the impression that I know so very little about the life of Christ and just about everything I imagined was inaccurate.

You're saying that because I have not "temporally" walked where Jesus walked, I cannot possibly know anything about where He "spiritually" walked?  Doesn't really hold up in my mind.  I certainly know I have not walked where He walked either physically or spiritually.  But this argument you're making doesn't hold water.

Quote

Please understand, I am not marketing trips to the Holy Land.  My impression is that as much as we think we know (my experience) - there is so much more that we don't.  In all honesty I am inclined to think that those that pronounce they know Jesus and have walked where he walked are likely not as informed as they think - and those that do know say much less - pondering in the things of the spirit and keeping most such things close to their heart and private as pearls of great price. 

Yeah, just like so many scholars (Hugh Nibley, John Welch, Truman Madsen -- not to mention quite a few GAs.) have done.  Keeping them close to their hearts by publishing them in all those books they write.

Quote

Of this I guess - because what I have learned is that I have not learned near enough - I have not walked near enough in his shoes and as I have implied - I am most skeptical of those that think they have.

I'd certainly agree.  But you were the one who set the bar at 3 months.  I was only doing some math.  Not trying to prove an old adage.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Mores

[Traveler]

32 minutes ago, Mores said:

I'd certainly agree.  But you were the one who set the bar at 3 months.  I was only doing some math.  Not trying to prove an old adage.

It was not my insight but rather native American wisdom that I referenced - I had a native American mission companion.  In general it has been my impression (including church members) that our native culture is looked down on and not respected or understood very well.  Without the experience of some months with my companion - I would likely think in simplistic terms that such things are overly goofy.   Which is in essence the very point the native wisdom is attempting to make.

 

The Traveler

[Guest Mores]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It was not my insight but rather native American wisdom that I referenced - I had a native American mission companion.  In general it has been my impression (including church members) that our native culture is looked down on and not respected or understood very well.  Without the experience of some months with my companion - I would likely think in simplistic terms that such things are overly goofy.   Which is in essence the very point the native wisdom is attempting to make.

You start out by saying that you weren't the one saying it was true.  You just wanted to state that you believe it. 

Do you have any idea why people find your line of reasoning to be convoluted?

[Traveler]

12 minutes ago, Mores said:

You start out by saying that you weren't the one saying it was true.  You just wanted to state that you believe it. 

Do you have any idea why people find your line of reasoning to be convoluted?

I apologize.

 

The Traveler 

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 10:56 AM, dprh said:

I have a pet theory that is probably wrong, but it makes sense to me.

The Holy Ghost is a position, the spirit that fills the position changes.  Every spirit needs to gain a body to progress toward exaltation.  It doesn't seem fair to me to have one being that while in the Godhead would be eternally held back from all the blessings of Heavenly Father.

When our world was first created, I believe Adam/Michael filled the role as the third member of the Godhead.  When he was given a body, another spirit was 'called', I imagine it was Enoch.  

By extension, I also believe that the "Holy Ghost" is an organization.  That other spirits are granted a type of Priesthood power to act in the name of the Holy Ghost, similar to how mortals with the Priesthood can act in the name of Jesus Christ.  This is the method that allows multiple people around the globe to experience the Holy Ghost's influence at the same time.

Alma 18:35  talks about "a portion of the Spirit" dwelling in Ammon shows that the Holy Ghost is ....divisible? would that be the correct term? 

2 Nephi 32:3 says that "angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost."  This is where my idea of the Holy Ghost type priesthood came from.

Again, probably wrong, and if shown, I'll chalk it up to fan theory shot down.  

I mirror a similar idea, though not as organized as you.

If we view with logic that the First Presidency was originally the Father, the Son, and Michael the Archangel...it would also go to reason that if Michael was the third member of that Presidency in Heaven, than he would have also filled the role of the Holy Ghost.

In that likewise, I had heard a rumor that Joseph Smith likewise had fulfilled the role of Holy Ghost at some point prior to his mortal existence. 

It would thus seem to me that it is indeed a calling as made, though how it is done is beyond my ken.  I don't have an organization or any other item, and have at times theorized that maybe there are multiple beings aiding a primary leader of it?  I do not know, but it does seem to reason that the Holy Ghost may be a position that changes in who holds it as per a calling or some other similar item.

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I mirror a similar idea, though not as organized as you.

If we view with logic that the First Presidency was originally the Father, the Son, and Michael the Archangel...it would also go to reason that if Michael was the third member of that Presidency in Heaven, than he would have also filled the role of the Holy Ghost.

In that likewise, I had heard a rumor that Joseph Smith likewise had fulfilled the role of Holy Ghost at some point prior to his mortal existence. 

It would thus seem to me that it is indeed a calling as made, though how it is done is beyond my ken.  I don't have an organization or any other item, and have at times theorized that maybe there are multiple beings aiding a primary leader of it?  I do not know, but it does seem to reason that the Holy Ghost may be a position that changes in who holds it as per a calling or some other similar item.

This does not conform to the fact that the Holy Ghost is a God.

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, anatess2 said:

This does not conform to the fact that the Holy Ghost is a God.

Why not

Quote

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Indeed, if one believes that We were among the great and noble ones, or that Michael was indeed the Archangel and part of the three who led the creation of this earth, than one must presuppose that he had that same power and perhaps greater than what we recognize the Holy Ghost to have.

We were, before we came to this earth, merely spirits, but we were, as spirits, the Children of God.  As your children are men, so the children of God are also of the same descendancy and hoped for aspirations as their parents.

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Why not

Indeed, if one believes that We were among the great and noble ones, or that Michael was indeed the Archangel and part of the three who led the creation of this earth, than one must presuppose that he had that same power and perhaps greater than what we recognize the Holy Ghost to have.

We were, before we came to this earth, merely spirits, but we were, as spirits, the Children of God.  As your children are men, so the children of God are also of the same descendancy and hoped for aspirations as their parents.

We have the potential to be Gods.  We are not Gods yet.  There are 3 Gods and only 3 Gods in the Godhead at the time of creation.  Joseph Smith is not one of them nor was Adam.

[JohnsonJones]

9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We have the potential to be Gods.  We are not Gods yet.  There are 3 Gods and only 3 Gods in the Godhead at the time of creation.  Joseph Smith is not one of them nor was Adam.

You are free to believe as you wish or desire.  A good place to ponder on this could be the Temple.

However, some of this is speculation, though some of it is not.

Edited August 19, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

You are free to believe as you wish or desire.  A good place to ponder on this could be the Temple.

However, some of this is speculation, though some of it is not.

Wait, what?  So... you believe that the 3 persons in the Godhead teaching is just something I came up with???  And you think I didn't ponder on the Godhead at the Temple? Interesting. 

Yes. Your theory of Adam and Joseph Smith being persons in the Godhead is speculation.  And they do not jive with the NOT SPECULATION of there being 3 persons in the Godhead in the Plan of Salvation.

[JohnsonJones]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Wait, what?  So... you believe that the 3 persons in the Godhead teaching is just something I came up with???  And you think I didn't ponder on the Godhead at the Temple? Interesting. 

Yes. Your theory of Adam and Joseph Smith being persons in the Godhead is speculation.  And they do not jive with the NOT SPECULATION of there being 3 persons in the Godhead in the Plan of Salvation.

No, I'm saying I won't discuss things discussed in the Temple outside of it.  I cannot go into more detail than that on this subject specifically right now, as far as I can tell.  However, for your answer to your question, that's the best place you are going to get it.  It's not an invalid item that I have suggested.

If you say there are only THREE (and without discussing the temple, how did you arrive at that idea?) who were before the beginning of the World...who were they?  I will say, there are three members of the Godhead...is that who you are referring to?

As reference to Adam in creation and his noble heritage (and ours as well).

Quote

Latter-day Saints know our noble mortal patriarch as the great archangel, Michael, who not only helped create the earth but will yet lead the Lord’s armies in casting out Satan and his followers.

Few persons in all eternity have been more directly involved in the plan of salvation—the creation, the fall, and the ultimate redemption of the children of God—than the man Adam. His ministry among the sons and daughters of earth stretches from the distant past of premortality to the distant future of resurrection, judgment, and beyond.

the Man Adam from Churchofjesuschrist.org

Quote

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “It is true that Adam helped to form this earth. He labored with our Savior Jesus Christ. I have a strong view or conviction that there were others also who assisted them. Perhaps Noah and Enoch; and why not Joseph Smith, and those who were appointed to be rulers before the earth was formed?” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:74–75).

footnote excerpt from this link of the PoGP student manual

Edited August 19, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

No, I'm saying I won't discuss things discussed in the Temple outside of it.  I cannot go into more detail than that on this subject specifically right now, as far as I can tell.  However, for your answer to your question, that's the best place you are going to get it.  It's not an invalid item that I have suggested.

If you say there are only THREE (and without discussing the temple, how did you arrive at that idea?) who were before the beginning of the World...who were they?  I will say, there are three members of the Godhead...is that who you are referring to?

As reference to Adam in creation and his noble heritage (and ours as well).

the Man Adam from Churchofjesuschrist.org

footnote excerpt from this link of the PoGP student manual

You're too busy speculating that you have forgotten the basics.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-7-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

The Holy Ghost Came to Adam and Eve

• Why did Adam and Eve need the guidance of the Holy Ghost?

After Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, they began to till the earth and work at other tasks for their living. They had many children, and their sons and daughters also married and had children (see Moses 5:1–3). Thus, spirit children of our Heavenly Father began leaving His presence to come to the earth as they had been promised (see Abraham 3:24–25). As they came to earth, the memory of their heavenly home was taken from them. But our Father did not shut them away from His influence. He sent the Holy Ghost to comfort and help and guide all of His spirit children.

Attributes of the Holy Ghost

• How does the Holy Ghost differ from the Father and the Son? Why is that difference important to us?

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.

<snip>

The Holy Ghost is our Heavenly Father’s messenger and is a special gift to us (see chapter 21 in this book).

Edited August 19, 2019 by anatess2

[JohnsonJones]

14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You're too busy speculating that you have forgotten the basics.

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-7-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

The Holy Ghost Came to Adam and Eve

• Why did Adam and Eve need the guidance of the Holy Ghost?

After Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden, they began to till the earth and work at other tasks for their living. They had many children, and their sons and daughters also married and had children (see Moses 5:1–3). Thus, spirit children of our Heavenly Father began leaving His presence to come to the earth as they had been promised (see Abraham 3:24–25). As they came to earth, the memory of their heavenly home was taken from them. But our Father did not shut them away from His influence. He sent the Holy Ghost to comfort and help and guide all of His spirit children.

Attributes of the Holy Ghost

• How does the Holy Ghost differ from the Father and the Son? Why is that difference important to us?

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.

<snip>

The Holy Ghost is our Heavenly Father’s messenger and is a special gift to us (see chapter 21 in this book).

Not really, nothing you just posted is contrary to what I posted or felt.  Perhaps I phrased it badly, but what I stated is not contradicted by anything you just presented there.