Holy Ghost - What do we know about him?


mikbone
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“Unless you make yourself equal to God, you cannot understand God: for the like is not intelligible save to the like. Make yourself grow to a greatness beyond measure, by a bound free yourself from the body; raise yourself above all time, become Eternity; then you will understand God. Believe that nothing is impossible for you, think yourself immortal and capable of understanding all, all arts, all sciences, the nature of every living being. Mount higher than the highest height; descend lower than the lowest depth. Draw into yourself all sensations of everything created, fire and water, dry and moist, imagining that you are everywhere, on earth, in the sea, in the sky, that you are not yet born, in the maternal womb, adolescent, old, dead, beyond death. If you embrace in your thought all things at once, times, places, substances, qualities, quantities, you may understand God.” -Giordano Bruno, Italian Dominican Friar / Astronomer, burned at the stake by the Roman Inquisition, Feb 17, 1600

 

Sometimes I think that many of the Saints think that Jehovah and the Holy Ghost were similar to us in the Pre-mortal existence.

In reality they were not like us.  Jehovah was spectacularly different.  He was already God.  He knew the mind of God the Father.  And He was like unto God - Abraham 3:24.  And He had already created worlds without number -Moses 1:33.

If you read the scriptures carefully, in places it certainly appears that Jehovah had a corporeal body. See Ether 3:8, D&C 107:53-55, Moses 7:4, Genesis 6:9

 

Edited by mikbone
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Guest CoEternal

In reading the posts of this topic, I read so much speculation and theory. Why not turn to the writings and sermons of the prophets of the restoration. They answer all these questions. They tell us that there were two GodHeads, one before and one after the fall. They tell us the identity and relationships between both First Presidencys. Anyone interested to know, or is speculation and personal Therories prefered? Just Asking, I'm new here.

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17 hours ago, CoEternal said:

In reading the posts of this topic, I read so much speculation and theory. Why not turn to the writings and sermons of the prophets of the restoration. They answer all these questions. They tell us that there were two GodHeads, one before and one after the fall. They tell us the identity and relationships between both First Presidencys. Anyone interested to know, or is speculation and personal Therories prefered? Just Asking, I'm new here.

Where can I find this, source? Two Godheads is a total new concept that I have never read in any Church manual, nor our scriptures. Thanks.

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:07 AM, mikbone said:

“Unless you make yourself equal to God, you cannot understand God: for the like is not intelligible save to the like. Make yourself grow to a greatness beyond measure, by a bound free yourself from the body; raise yourself above all time, become Eternity; then you will understand God. Believe that nothing is impossible for you, think yourself immortal and capable of understanding all, all arts, all sciences, the nature of every living being. Mount higher than the highest height; descend lower than the lowest depth. Draw into yourself all sensations of everything created, fire and water, dry and moist, imagining that you are everywhere, on earth, in the sea, in the sky, that you are not yet born, in the maternal womb, adolescent, old, dead, beyond death. If you embrace in your thought all things at once, times, places, substances, qualities, quantities, you may understand God.” -Giordano Bruno, Italian Dominican Friar / Astronomer, burned at the stake by the Roman Inquisition, Feb 17, 1600

 

Sometimes I think that many of the Saints think that Jehovah and the Holy Ghost were similar to us in the Pre-mortal existence.

In reality they were not like us.  Jehovah was spectacularly different.  He was already God.  He knew the mind of God the Father.  And He was like unto God - Abraham 3:24.  And He had already created worlds without number -Moses 1:33.

If you read the scriptures carefully, in places it certainly appears that Jehovah had a corporeal body. See Ether 3:8, D&C 107:53-55, Moses 7:4, Genesis 6:9

 

Alma 13: 5 - We are all -- including Christ/Jehovah -- the sons and daughters of God. What do you mean that he would be different if our parentage is the same?

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19 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Alma 13: 5 - We are all -- including Christ/Jehovah -- the sons and daughters of God. What do you mean that he would be different if our parentage is the same?

Yes we are the same species.  Elohim, Jehovah, and mankind.

But I don’t think that I am similar to Elohim, He is essentially infinitely more experienced, intelligent, wise, and powerful.  He is perfect, we are not.

Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence was more like Elohim than He was like us.

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6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Yes we are the same species.  Elohim, Jehovah, and mankind.

But I don’t think that I am similar to Elohim, He is essentially infinitely more experienced, intelligent, wise, and powerful.  He is perfect, we are not.

Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence was more like Elohim than He was like us.

You're talking past each other.

A baby, a teen-ager, a single adult, a father, a grandfather walk into a bar...

They're all similar.  Of course, the grandfather has more life experience than the father who has more life experience than the single adult, who has more life experience than a teen-ager, who has more life experience than the baby.  But that little baby... if he follows the grandfather's footsteps... will eventually become a grandfather.  That's why they are similar.

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Guest CoEternal
On 9/25/2019 at 3:02 PM, Anddenex said:

Where can I find this, source? Two Godheads is a total new concept that I have never read in any Church manual, nor our scriptures. Thanks.

The information is found in the recorded sermons of the Joseph, Brigham,John Taylor,Wilford Woodruff, etc.

The first Godhead consisted of Elohiem, Michael, and Jehovah in that order.

The second and current was Michael, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.

This is the pattern of the Plan of Salvation.

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2 hours ago, CoEternal said:

The information is found in the recorded sermons of the Joseph, Brigham,John Taylor,Wilford Woodruff, etc.

The first Godhead consisted of Elohiem, Michael, and Jehovah in that order.

The second and current was Michael, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.

This is the pattern of the Plan of Salvation.

Boy oh boy, another Adam-God discussion!

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10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Boy oh boy, another Adam-God discussion!

Every doctrine and practice of Satan is a mockery and Forgery of a true eternal doctrine.

This works in two ways, if not the first, then the second.

1) He gets you to believe false doctrines  thus keeping you from the truth.

2) He creates enmity towards the true doctrine mocked by the false doctrine.

This is no truer than the so called Adam-God Theory which has be correctly condemned, Joseph, Brigham, et al NEVER TAUGHT the Adam-God Theory - prophets don't teach theory. What is very well documented as being taught by Joseph, Brigham, et al. is the true nature of God which includes the true story of the Garden, his Identity, his lineage, ...

So, as I said earlier, if what was actually taught is of interest I'm good. But if what is desired is to express enmity towards the forged or true doctrine, or to present yet another forgery and mockery, I'll just go away.

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3 hours ago, CoEternal said:

The information is found in the recorded sermons of the Joseph, Brigham,John Taylor,Wilford Woodruff, etc.

The first Godhead consisted of Elohiem, Michael, and Jehovah in that order.

The second and current was Michael, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost.

This is the pattern of the Plan of Salvation.

Thank you. Can you be more direct than general "recorded sermons"? Like a link or book. :)

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12 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. Can you be more direct than general "recorded sermons"? Like a link or book. :)

History of the Church, The Teachings of Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young's Diaries, Wilford Woodruff's Diaries, etc

As per The Holy Ghost, Here are some things we know:
"Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men on this stand who would want to take my life" (Joseph Smith; Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.33).

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richar

"Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost, but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world, which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory, so there would be Gods many & Lords many there were many mansions, even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory." Wilford Woodruff Diary Joseph Smith Papers

D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

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15 minutes ago, CoEternal said:

History of the Church, The Teachings of Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith's Teachings, Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young's Diaries, Wilford Woodruff's Diaries, etc

As per The Holy Ghost, Here are some things we know:
"Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men on this stand who would want to take my life" (Joseph Smith; Life of Heber C. Kimball, p.33).

“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245; Sabbath address, Nauvoo, 27 August 1843. Reported by Franklin D. Richar

"Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost, but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world, which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory, so there would be Gods many & Lords many there were many mansions, even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory." Wilford Woodruff Diary Joseph Smith Papers

D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!

Thank you. I am not sure from these quotes how these quotes refer to two Godheads. I am familiar with 3 of the 4 quotes. I have read in its entirety "The Teachings of Joseph Smith," read the majority of "Joseph Smith's Teachings" and I am unfamiliar with any post specifying two Godheads.

Journal of Discourses would be similar to the Apocrypha. Not everything shared is true doctrine, but as Joseph Smith has shared they are prophets/men who have their own thoughts on different subjects. Otherwise, if my memory recalls correctly, it was Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses who talked about Adam having a second wife from another planet, earth creation.

So, as far as I can tell you are speculating and providing your theories on what has been said and taught. So the following statement then, "In reading the posts of this topic, I read so much speculation and theory. Why not turn to the writings and sermons of the prophets of the restoration. They answer all these questions. They tell us that there were two GodHeads, one before and one after the fall. They tell us the identity and relationships between both First Presidencys. Anyone interested to know, or is speculation and personal Therories prefered? Just Asking," is a little ironic.

Edited by Anddenex
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In the temple narrative when Elohim, Michael and Jehovah are presented, there is no commentary about this group being the Godhead.  

But many have made this association.

For me and mine, our interpretation is that Adam and Eve are representations of us...  That we took part in the decision making process and preparation for this earthly probationary state.  

 

It is probably better to review core doctrine and modern revelation and apply these concepts to our understanding of the temple narrative.   As opposed to trying to understand the narrative through the lens of the so called Adam - God theory.

 

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. I am not sure from these quotes how these quotes refer to two Godheads. I am familiar with 3 of the 4 quotes. I have read in its entirety "The Teachings of Joseph Smith," read the majority of "Joseph Smith's Teachings" and I am unfamiliar with any post specifying two Godheads.

Journal of Discourses would be similar to the Apocrypha. Not everything shared is true doctrine, but as Joseph Smith has shared they are prophets/men who have their own thoughts on different subjects. Otherwise, if my memory recalls correctly, it was Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses who talked about Adam having a second wife from another planet, earth creation.

So, as far as I can tell you are speculating and providing your theories on what has been said and taught. So the following statement then, "In reading the posts of this topic, I read so much speculation and theory. Why not turn to the writings and sermons of the prophets of the restoration. They answer all these questions. They tell us that there were two GodHeads, one before and one after the fall. They tell us the identity and relationships between both First Presidencys. Anyone interested to know, or is speculation and personal Therories prefered? Just Asking," is a little ironic.

You did not read my post very well, I clearly stated what those quotes are about. " As per The Holy Ghost, Here are some things we know:"

As per the Journal being apocryphal, they are not. They are a collection of Sermons from prophets of God, published with the full knowledge, approval and aid of Brigham young. You may wish to heed the sentiment offered in these quotes before you reject the teachings of these prophets.

“Some speak of the nations now on the earth forgetting God, they have not forgotten Him, for they have never remembered Him. They have not departed from His ways, for they never found them; they have not lost faith in Him, for they never had any. There are men sitting here who were brought up Christians, who were trained to believe in the sacred words of truth contained in the Old and New Testament. What were you taught by your priests, your fathers, mothers, and associates, with regard to God? How many anxious hours I have experienced in my youth, to know, see, and understand things as they were and as they are. Did I ever see a man who could instruct me in those matters, until I saw Joseph Smith? I never did. And after I had made a profession of religion, I would ask the most powerful preachers whether they knew anything about God - where He is located, where Heaven is, and where Hell is, who is the Father, who the Son, and what the distinction is between them, who is Michael the archangel, who is Gabriel, and so on. Could they tell a thing about it? No: and I am a witness that no man in Christendom knew anything about it, unless it was revealed by the Spirit to him.[Brigham Young August 09, 1857 Volume:5 Page:128 Paragraph:4]”

These questions that Brigham asked, do you think from this that Joseph answered them to Brigham? Are you also like Brigham, seeking answers to these same questions? Do you think that Brigham would answer them differently than Joseph did? Would you listen to Brighams answers to these questions? Would you listen to other’s testimonies of Joseph’s and Brigham’s answers? Will the following excerpts help you to believe those answers?

“1 What is the nature and beauty of Joseph"s mission? You know that I am one of his Apostles. When I first heard him preach, he brought heaven and earth together; and all the priests of the day could not tell me anything correct about heaven, hell, God, angels, or devils: they were as blind as Egyptian darkness. When I saw Joseph Smith, he took heaven, figuratively speaking, and brought it down to earth; and he took the earth, brought it up, and opened up, in plainness and simplicity, the things of God; and that is the beauty of his mission. I had a testimony, long before that, that he was a Prophet of the Lord, and that was consoling. Did not Joseph do the same to your understandings? Would he not take the Scriptures and make them so plain and simple that everybody could understand? Every person says, "Yes, it is admirable; it unites the heavens and the earth together;" and as for time, it is nothing, only to learn us how to live in eternity. [Brigham Young October 07, 1857 JOD Volume 5 Page 332 Verse 1]”

“7 I will tell you how I pray. I ask my Father and my God, in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, Father, will you speak to brother Brigham - will you speak to our leader - will you speak to my President - will you dictate him just as you would dictate matters if you were here in the flesh? That is my prayer, and that should be the prayer of this whole people; and I just know, for this time henceforth, if he lives a hundred years, he never will be led to do a thing except the very thing God would do himself, if he was here. I just know it, brethren. You all understand, naturally, that the food that you partake of goes into the head first, and then passes through to the extremity of every limb to every fibre and to every member of that body, does it not? Well, then, do you not see that everything must first be received by the head, and that there is where God will communicate? And when he communicates to the head, if you are all members of that body and connected with that head, like the limbs of a tree, how can you help partaking of that same Spirit, the same knowledge with the head? You cannot help it. He cannot be a person of much sense that cannot believe this. [Heber C. Kimball October 18, 1857 JOD Volume 5 Page 333 Verse 7]”

Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire. Brigham Young Brigham Young, January 2, 1870 Journal of Discourses Vol. 13 Pg. 95 Para. 1]”

Those questions above that Brigham asked, for decades I asked those and other related questions with all my attempts to answer them "through the usual methods" (scripture study, books of LDS authors,Priesthood and SS materials, etc) were completely frustrated. But in deference to a friend's suggestion to read the King Follett Discourse yet not one more time but many more times (note:the King Follett Discourse is in the Journal of Discourses). Due to the significant respect I had for this friend, I read it again and again. And then something happened, a seemingly insignificant passage jumped right off the page at me - I knew exactly what it meant and I realized that it was also to be found in D&C 76. It stunned me, I knew with no doubt it was true but could not imagine how it could come to pass, what are the logistics of it, the process of it. As I searched, I found those answers in first, the Journal by more than one prophet. And then in other places. I found it in the Temple, and finally in the scriptures.  You see, that was Josephs calling - to restore lost truths - either because they were not in the scriptures or because we did not understand the scriptures. EVERY BIT OF WHAT I FOUND IN THE JOD I ALSO FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES.

But I also had to change how I approach what appeared to me as inconsistencies, disagreements between the JOD and other sources and the scriptures. They were not that at all, they were me not understanding the true meaning of one or the other or both. As my understanding increased the apparent disharmony harmonized.   All the questions mentioned by Brigham, and so many more, have been answered. Those answers are there for those who truly seek them.

Now, addressing the matter of the two Godheads, I do not publish any of my speculation, Speculation is a tool of the search, ponder, pray, confirm/work-it-out-in-your-mind-then ask processes. You say that in all you have read, you have not read that. Well I have read it, I found it among the revelations on what actually happened in the Garden of Eden, and if you will be a little more careful reading what I write and be a little patient, and don't jump to conclusions or speculate about me, I'll find it for you. Maybe that discussion should have it's own topic, maybe not - the topic here is what we know about the Holy Ghost and that was the context in which I mentioned it.

 

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18 minutes ago, CoEternal said:

As per the Journal being apocryphal, they are not. They are a collection of Sermons from prophets of God, published with the full knowledge, approval and aid of Brigham young. You may wish to heed the sentiment offered in these quotes before you reject the teachings of these prophets.

I had to stop here, I will read the rest later, because you appear to have a misunderstandings of what the Journal of Discourses are. I heed both past and modern teachings, and here is the modern prophets statement regarding the Journal of Discourses:

"The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest."

"The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine."

You may wish to heed modern prophets and the statements offered regarding the Journal of Discourses. Up to you though. Link here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/journal-of-discourses?lang=eng

EDIT:

Statement regarding Apocrypha, "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the aApocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;"

Sounds like the statement regarding the Apocrypha and the Church's statement with the Journal of Discourses are similar.

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1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

I had to stop here, I will read the rest later, because you appear to have a misunderstandings of what the Journal of Discourses are. I heed both past and modern teachings, and here is the modern prophets statement regarding the Journal of Discourses:

"The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest."

"The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine."

You may wish to heed modern prophets and the statements offered regarding the Journal of Discourses. Up to you though. Link here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/journal-of-discourses?lang=eng

 

You should have read the whole thing before you jump to conclusions. I DO NOT HAVE A MISUNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THEY ARE

What I wrote is in complete harmony with "The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.",

If you had the patience i suggested, you would not have posted this.

But you do not seem to read and understand what I write.  And under those conditions I see no point in continuing to be misread, mis understood and mis characterized by you and can not help you.

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8 minutes ago, CoEternal said:

You should have read the whole thing before you jump to conclusions. I DO NOT HAVE A MISUNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THEY ARE

What I wrote is in complete harmony with "The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.",

If you had the patience i suggested, you would not have posted this.

But you do not seem to read and understand what I write.  And under those conditions I see no point in continuing to be misread, mis understood and mis characterized by you and can not help you.

It appears we agree one one thing.

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8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

It appears we agree one one thing.

Maybe if you did some research we could agree on more.

A bit on the history of the Journal of Discourses
"Who was in charge?

Often overlooked by many of its LDS critics is the fact that most of the volumes of the Journal were edited and published under the direct auspices of men who were either currently serving as a general authority or would later become one. The names are a veritable who’s who list of Mormon leaders and include such men as Franklin Richards, Orson Pratt, George Q. Cannon, Amasa Lyman, Daniel H. Wells, Brigham Young, Jr., Joseph F. Smith, and Albert Carrington. It would be difficult to prove that any of its publishers were appointed without the blessing, or at least the knowledge of, the First Presidency. Can we really believe that such men would print something about the church that was not believed at the time?"
[MRM link omitted.  —JAG]

 

Take particular notice of the line "It would be difficult to prove that any of its publishers were appointed without the blessing, or at least the knowledge of, the First Presidency."!

NOT APOCRYPHAL

I'll accept your apology now.

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