Holy Ghost - What do we know about him?

[Guest CoEternal]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

[MRM link omitted.  —JAG]

I apologize, not anti-Mormon - Mormon apologist

" Mormonism Research Ministry is a missionary/apologetics organization that was organized in 1979 to propagate the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to critically evaluate the differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity. Below are the ways that we accomplish this work.  "

Edited September 28, 2019 by CoEternal

[Anddenex]

5 hours ago, CoEternal said:

Maybe if you did some research we could agree on more.

A bit on the history of the Journal of Discourses
"Who was in charge?

Often overlooked by many of its LDS critics is the fact that most of the volumes of the Journal were edited and published under the direct auspices of men who were either currently serving as a general authority or would later become one. The names are a veritable who’s who list of Mormon leaders and include such men as Franklin Richards, Orson Pratt, George Q. Cannon, Amasa Lyman, Daniel H. Wells, Brigham Young, Jr., Joseph F. Smith, and Albert Carrington. It would be difficult to prove that any of its publishers were appointed without the blessing, or at least the knowledge of, the First Presidency. Can we really believe that such men would print something about the church that was not believed at the time?

[MRM link omitted.  —JAG

 

Take particular notice of the line "It would be difficult to prove that any of its publishers were appointed without the blessing, or at least the knowledge of, the First Presidency."!

NOT APOCRYPHAL

I'll accept your apology now.

What apology are you referring to? I shared with you two quotes from the Church's site regarding the Journal of Discourses, which also addressed how the Journal of Discourses was published. So your information is nothing new.

Let's review what the Church's site shares and doctrine seeing you seem to have read to quickly:

Scriptural statement regarding Apocrypha, "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the ^aApocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;"

"The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest."

"The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine."

Haha, no apology required. Your myopic outlook isn't allowing you to see what is actually being said.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest CoEternal]

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. I am not sure from these quotes how these quotes refer to two Godheads. I am familiar with 3 of the 4 quotes. I have read in its entirety "The Teachings of Joseph Smith," read the majority of "Joseph Smith's Teachings" and I am unfamiliar with any post specifying two Godheads.

Journal of Discourses would be similar to the Apocrypha. Not everything shared is true doctrine, but as Joseph Smith has shared they are prophets/men who have their own thoughts on different subjects. Otherwise, if my memory recalls correctly, it was Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses who talked about Adam having a second wife from another planet, earth creation.

So, as far as I can tell you are speculating and providing your theories on what has been said and taught. So the following statement then, "In reading the posts of this topic, I read so much speculation and theory. Why not turn to the writings and sermons of the prophets of the restoration. They answer all these questions. They tell us that there were two GodHeads, one before and one after the fall. They tell us the identity and relationships between both First Presidencys. Anyone interested to know, or is speculation and personal Therories prefered? Just Asking," is a little ironic.

For this myopic post

.CoEternal said:" As per The Holy Ghost, Here are some things we know: " followed by some quotes.

Anddenex said:"I am not sure from these quotes how these quotes refer to two Godhead"

 

Anddenex said:"Journal of Discourses would be similar to the Apocrypha"

The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth. — President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.

Anddenex speculated:

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

So, as far as I can tell you are speculating and providing your theories on what has been said and taught. So the following statement then, "In reading the posts of this topic, I read so much speculation and theory. Why not turn to the writings and sermons of the prophets of the restoration. They answer all these questions. They tell us that there were two GodHeads, one before and one after the fall. They tell us the identity and relationships between both First Presidencys. Anyone interested to know, or is speculation and personal Therories prefered? Just Asking," is a little ironic.

And I almost forgot,

More Anddenex speculation:

"I had to stop here, I will read the rest later, because you appear to have a misunderstandings of what the Journal of Discourses are "

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by CoEternal

[Vort]

39 minutes ago, CoEternal said:

I apologize, not anti-Mormon - Mormon apologist

" Mormonism Research Ministry is a missionary/apologetics organization that was organized in 1979 to propagate the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to critically evaluate the differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity. Below are the ways that we accomplish this work.  "

No, you were right the first time. They're anti-Mormons.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, CoEternal said:

 

http://www.ldslearning.org/lds-king-follett-discourse-a-newly-amalgamated-text-byu.pdf

Yes this is a very good scholarly work that attempts to piece together the final general conference address of Joseph Smith.  The following is my favorite recording.

 

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44-copy.html

 

[mikbone]

The JoD is not a standard work of the church.  It is not part of the canon. No matter how many quotes you find or how much you want it to be...

 

[Just_A_Guy]

Just as a mod note:  MRM is indeed an anti-Mormon site, and links to are being and will be deleted as per this site’s rules.

Taking my mod hat off and speaking as a regular person . . . It seems to me that @Anddenex asked a direct question about where @CoEternal got his (or her?) idea about multiple Godheads, whereupon, instead of providing textual support, @CoEternal seems to have basically referred @Anddenex to a thousand-page-plus publication and said in essence “if you aren’t righteous/spiritual enough to figure it out, I’m not going to tell you”.

I tend to read statements like that as “I can’t support my argument”.  I daresay most folks here would suggest that speaking in riddles is not a sign of spiritual fortitude; it’s a sign of a mixture of pride and lack of intellectual rigor.  

I will note, however, that Adam-God proponents are fond of this JoD sermon, which includes the following: 

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

I don’t think that means what CoEtetnal wants it to mean, but I can see how it could be twisted to support such a view. 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest CoEternal]

30 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Just as a mod note:  MRM is indeed an anti-Mormon site, and links to are being and will be deleted as per this site’s rules.

Taking my mod hat off and speaking as a regular person . . . It seems to me that @Anddenex asked a direct question about where @CoEternal got his (or her?) idea about multiple Godheads, whereupon, instead of providing textual support, @CoEternal seems to have basically referred @Anddenex to a thousand-page-plus publication and said in essence “if you aren’t righteous/spiritual enough to figure it out, I’m not going to tell you”.

I tend to read statements like that as “I can’t support my argument”.  I daresay most folks here would suggest that speaking in riddles is not a sign of spiritual fortitude; it’s a sign of a mixture of pride and lack of intellectual rigor.  

I will note, however, that Adam-God proponents are fond of this JoD sermon, which includes the following: 

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

I don’t think that means what CoEtetnal wants it to mean, but I can see how it could be twisted to support such a view. 

Well, well, well.

Now I see how it is here.

It is OK to be treated the way Anddenex treated me because he has the help of a mod.

So the very long post that explains to some degree where that came from and that I was looking for it has been deleted.

And Brigham, and others point blank say many many many times that Eloheim is Michael/Adams father, and that Michael/Adam is the Spirit Father of all on this earth and the Physical Father of Jehovah/Jesus, while it is not the reference I was thinking of, it does indeed mean what you say it does not Because the current Quorum is Michel/Adam, Jehovah/Jesus, and The Holy Ghost/Joseph Smith.

So since I see that all that is going to happen here is personal attacks against those that actually wish to discuss what the Prophets of the Restoration taught, you can delete this account because I will have no further use for such closed minded people.

[NeuroTypical]

16 hours ago, CoEternal said:

I apologize, not anti-Mormon - Mormon apologist

" Mormonism Research Ministry is a missionary/apologetics organization that was organized in 1979 to propagate the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to critically evaluate the differences between Mormonism and biblical Christianity. Below are the ways that we accomplish this work.  "

Friend, are you under the impression that the Mormonism Research Ministry is an apologist organization run by LDS folks?  Because it isn't - it's the exact opposite.  A group of trinitarians banded together to attack and tear down the restored church of Jesus Christ.  If you couldn't figure that out within 30 seconds of going there, it calls into question several things.

[laronius]

On 8/12/2019 at 9:56 AM, dprh said:

I have a pet theory that is probably wrong, but it makes sense to me.

The Holy Ghost is a position, the spirit that fills the position changes.  Every spirit needs to gain a body to progress toward exaltation.  It doesn't seem fair to me to have one being that while in the Godhead would be eternally held back from all the blessings of Heavenly Father.

When our world was first created, I believe Adam/Michael filled the role as the third member of the Godhead.  When he was given a body, another spirit was 'called', I imagine it was Enoch.  

By extension, I also believe that the "Holy Ghost" is an organization.  That other spirits are granted a type of Priesthood power to act in the name of the Holy Ghost, similar to how mortals with the Priesthood can act in the name of Jesus Christ.  This is the method that allows multiple people around the globe to experience the Holy Ghost's influence at the same time.

Alma 18:35  talks about "a portion of the Spirit" dwelling in Ammon shows that the Holy Ghost is ....divisible? would that be the correct term? 

2 Nephi 32:3 says that "angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost."  This is where my idea of the Holy Ghost type priesthood came from.

Again, probably wrong, and if shown, I'll chalk it up to fan theory shot down.  

I read a book a while back by a distant cousin talking about a near death experience he had while going through some serious health challenges. While on the other side of the veil he was given the opportunity to seek out his father (who was still alive and well in this world) and "inspire" him with the thought that he was urgently needed to come give his son a blessing. His father responded immediately and the needed blessing was given. Now I don't know that this proves that there isn't an official Holy Ghost personage (I personally believe there is) but it does make me think about what we label as influences of the Holy Ghost. I personally believe our relatives (usually the dead ones) do indeed work with us and influence in ways we often label as influences of the Holy Ghost. So perhaps some of the Holy Ghost's responsibilities can be delegated to other non-resurrected beings. Talk about a great apprenticeship! 

[Vort]

12 hours ago, CoEternal said:

Now I see how it is here.

[...]

So since I see that all that is going to happen here is personal attacks against those that actually wish to discuss what the Prophets of the Restoration taught, you can delete this account because I will have no further use for such closed minded people.

Your persecutions are truly Job-like.

PS The recorded phrase is "co-equal".

[Jedi_Nephite]

We don't know that much about the Holy Ghost.  However, when I was little, whenever I heard someone refer to the Holy Ghost, I always pictured this:

 

 

[Just_A_Guy]

22 hours ago, CoEternal said:

[1]Well, well, well.

Now I see how it is here.

It is OK to be treated the way Anddenex treated me because he has the help of a mod.

[2]So the very long post that explains to some degree where that came from and that I was looking for it has been deleted.

[3]And Brigham, and others point blank say many many many times that Eloheim is Michael/Adams father, and that Michael/Adam is the Spirit Father of all on this earth and the Physical Father of Jehovah/Jesus, while it is not the reference I was thinking of, it does indeed mean what you say it does not Because the current Quorum is Michel/Adam, Jehovah/Jesus, and The Holy Ghost/Joseph Smith.

[4]So since I see that all that is going to happen here is personal attacks against those that actually wish to discuss what the Prophets of the Restoration taught, you can delete this account because I will have no further use for such closed minded people.

1.  Treated how?  Asked to cite your specific sources, you mean?

Guilty as charged.  

And I hope to be guilty many, many more times. 

2.  None of your posts have been deleted.  The only editing that has occurred is removing links to MRM.

3.  This is a discussion forum, not a “maintain respectful decorum whilst CoEternal preaches the true Gospel to us” forum.  Any schmuck with a keyboard can play the “I get better revelation than you do, so you’d better respect my authority!” card, which is why that gambit doesn’t get much mileage here.  If you think you’re right, point us to your specific sources and we’ll discuss them.  

4.  Funny how so many folks who are so eager to “discuss what the Prophets of the Restoration taught”, seem to have to go back a hundred and fifty years to find anything worth discussing . . .

As for your request for account closure—we have a multi-tiered system of mods, and closing anyone’s account is above my pay grade.  I’ll flag @pam on this, though.   

Edited September 29, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[pam]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

As for your request for account closure—we have a multi-tiered system of mods, and closing anyone’s account is above my pay grade.  I’ll flag @pam on this, though.   

I honored the request.