Fates worse than death


Eternum
 Share

Recommended Posts

That sounds like a really tough situation.  It can be tough to handle that.  I'm not sure how to respond in the thread on this, but I can say, that's a really hard situation to be in. 

I'm not sure if it is pertinent or would apply to your situation, but I do know of someone who had PTSD and  severe anxiety attacks.  They were able to eventually get a doctor's diagnosis and SS and could point out that this ailment was 100% disabling.  In light of that, they requested certain things to be done.  The sacrament was taken to them around once a month (the ward tried to have people stop by and perform the sacrament for this individual, but at times it was hard to get there every week) so that they could have the sacrament, but many other things were avoided.  They did this via appointments and organized times (normally it was right after church on Sundays when they took the sacrament to this individual).

If it is possible it may be that this is applicable to you, but I do not know.  Rough situation it sounds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/30/2019 at 12:40 PM, Eternum said:

Me being overly defensive. Sorry about that.

This comment has been used with me when people have followed up on something about codependency/politely trying to tell me to mind my own business. Plus, a lot, I mean a LOT of church teachings have been twisted slightly or manipulated by some members around me and I tend to get jumpy. 😕

What I meant about praying is exactly what you did. I don't expect others to have revelations about me or vice versa. So, again, I apologize. You did exactly what you needed to. And lol at the joke. That helped bring some much needed relief, thanks. :)

So... when you suggested going to Sacrament meetings... would you mind elaborating on that for someone who has had to deal with a ton of corruption in the church? I'm at the point where I can't even trust the Priesthood in the hands of any humans, and I feel like the Sacrament getting passed to me is already corrupted.

No worries about the initial misinterpretation. 

There was a point in my life where I had a hard time going to church. I was in a YSA ward and had gone from serving in consecutive RS Predidencies to bulletin coordinator, even though I had told them I didn't have access to a computer/printer. (I learned how important it was to be set apart for a calling, because it wasn't until after that happened that I was inspired to hand write the announcements on half of the paper and the program on the other. I would copy and cut it so everyone got a half sheet with info on either side.) I was spiraling into a depression, and the bishop made a casual remark that we would not hold meetings for 2-3 weeks because there would not be enough in our ward over the holidays "to be worth it." I knew that he meant no harm, but it was hard. I had no family in the area, and have decision anxiety, so having to choose a ward to attend those weeks broke my spirit a little. What made it harder was the stake president was on the stand behind him when he said that. My depression read into that as being "not worth blessing the sacrament for," which my rational brain spent a lot of time reminding me that's not true, and I know it. (My most current bishop takes sacrament seriously to the point where he has ended a meeting cut short by bad weather to say that if anyone had arrived after it was passed that they were invited to stay after the closing prayer to receive it if they wanted.) 

Anyway, I had such a hard time being in church that for about 3 weeks straight, I showed up just as the opening hymn was starting, sat in the back, and left as the people administering the sacrament took their seats with the congregation. I literally only came for the ordinance. What ended up causing me to change that was I had tithing to pay. So I stayed until the end of sacrament meeting, paid it, and went home again. It was still a week or two before I was emotionally able to stay for the other meetings.

As far as feeling that the sacrament is corrupted, God holds you responsible only for making sure that your heart and hands are clean and pure. If those are, the piece of bread or cracker and water you partake of are uncorrupted. If there is someone unworthy who is administering the sacrament, that is his and his quorum leader's responsibility to answer to God regarding the matter. Also, one does not have to be perfect to administer an ordinance. No one would ever get the sacrament if that were the case!

Edited by seashmore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/31/2019 at 2:16 PM, seashmore said:

As far as feeling that the sacrament is corrupted, God holds you responsible only for making sure that your heart and hands are clean and pure. If those are, the piece of bread or cracker and water you partake of are uncorrupted. If there is someone unworthy who is administering the sacrament, that is his and his quorum leader's responsibility to answer to God regarding the matter. Also, one does not have to be perfect to administer an ordinance. No one would ever get the sacrament if that were the case!

Haha, true. Thanks a lot for all you wrote. It's interesting. While I do know this on some level spiritually and find some comfort in this knowledge, the greater comfort and help to me was found in what you were willing to open up about. That was one of the difficult times in your life to reflect on, so I appreciate that you did. Overcoming a struggle, especially a larger one, can be a process of a million baby steps. I can relate to the anxiety, depression, and rational mind understanding something that the emotions take time to catch up on.

In your process of healing, was it being in the church environment regularly again that helped you find your emotional footing? Time? Familiar faces? I'm sure it was a combination of things, including the healing of the Atonement, I am just wondering what stands out in memory. Was there any support for you in regards to your anxiety or depression?

You don't have to answer anything you're not comfortable with, or we can move to direct messages if you want. Just trying to get a sense of those baby steps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/30/2019 at 12:24 PM, Eternum said:

I am much calmer now thanks to yours and other posts, so I owe many here an apology. That would be @Grunt, @anatess2, @Mores, @clwnuke, @mdfxdb, you, and @seashmore. I am sorry for my behavior. I understand if those who have set me to ignore will continue to, and accept the consequences for my actions. My apology is out there all the same.

For some reason some of the tags didn't take.  Some did.  I was one that the tag worked.  So, I'll respond.  What I'm about to say may sound like scolding.  It isn't meant to be.  It is what I've observed.  Nothing more.  You can choose to lash out at me for it, if you wish.  But it won't do anyone any good, and I'll probably ignore it.

I do NOT have you on ignore (officially).  But I've been avoiding the thread because of exactly what you apologized for.  

Consider that many people are doing the best they can with limited information.  They really don't know you.  They have no idea what you're really going through.  I don't know you.  My heart is in the right place.  I would really like to help.  And I do what I think I should be doing to try to help.  But I mess it up because I really don't know you.  And because of that you got mad at me and many others doing the same thing.

When you react like that, it is very difficult to not feel sympathy for those in your ward (including your bishop and stake president) who sometimes don't remember things the same way you do.  And you decide they must be lying.  Maybe they were.  Maybe they just remembered things differently or used a slightly different meaning of a phrase or even misused a word.  People do that.  But when you immediately jump to the conclusion that they are liars, it sounds terrible. 

When you jump to conclusions about my motivations in trying to help you (because I really was trying) it makes me think you're doing the same with these others that you're condemning.

It seems that the Lord has given you trials that you need to work through so that you can become humble.  But what I truly see is that you have not been humbled.  Yes, that sounds like a terrible thing to say.  But remember what I said in my first post in this thread.  If you let your past (including recent past) offenses go -- i.e. the hurt you've received from others -- and hand it all over to the Lord, you'll be amazed at how much of your physical, mental, and emotional woes will simply go away with them.  Yes, you'll still have some problems that you have to deal with.  And, no, they won't go away all at once.  But most of them will gradually disappear when you hand all this over to the Lord.

Part of that is to be willing to forgive.  Be willing to love.  In all the problems of your life, I don't blame you for complaining.  I don't even blame you for complaining A LOT.  Really, I don't.  I think I'd be complaining a lot too, if I were in your shoes.  But that doesn't change the fact that it is not a helpful behavior.  Within all the time that you're recognizing your trials, you must also be willing to forgive and to love.  I haven't heard a word of any love, forgiveness, or humility from you.  You've shown gratitude, at least, for your friend and your brother.  So, that is good. 

But can you show love to those who seem to be trying to help (but are doing a lousy job of it)?  Can you forgive them for messing up while trying to do good?  Can you humble yourself to realize that none of them owes you anything?

It is true that the Saints of God are supposed to help those in need.  Absolutely true.  That is why I'm also disappointed in the people you are describing as not behaving that way.  But also realize that they don't owe it to you.  You have no right to complain that they are not doing anything for you.  It is a commandment of the Lord.  And only HE has the right to condemn them for not doing it.  That is why you need to take this all before the Lord and ask Him for strength as well as relief.

I'm not sure if you've seen the movie "Count of Monte Cristo".  I thought it (the Jim Caviezel version) was a wonderful rendition of the book.  You're in Chateau d'If.  You're depending on God and staying true and faithful.  Praying as much as you can.  And all you have is pain, sorrow, injustice with no relief in sight.  Then at the very moment when you think all is lost, and you are truly humbled, a glimmer of hope is offered to you.  It doesn't look like anything important.  But you're in such despair that any glimmer of hope will be welcome.

That is exactly the way the Lord works.  It is not just the despair.  It is having all the faith in the world, letting trials truly humble you to the point where all you have is the Lord, that some tiny gift is offered to you.  And if you take it in humility rather than "it's about time" kind of attitude, the Lord will begin bursting open the windows of heaven.

Now, you can go ahead and yell at me for not understanding or for judging you.  I'm not.  I realize I only have a small picture of your life.  I admit I don't understand.  But I have given you the truth about those bits that you have chosen to share.  I don't know anything more about you or your life other than that.  But what I've shared is in an attitude of compassion and in the spirit of truth.  I hope you take it as such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Mores said:

When you jump to conclusions about my motivations in trying to help you (because I really was trying) it makes me think you're doing the same with these others that you're condemning.

It seems that the Lord has given you trials that you need to work through so that you can become humble.  But what I truly see is that you have not been humbled.  Yes, that sounds like a terrible thing to say.  But remember what I said in my first post in this thread.  If you let your past (including recent past) offenses go -- i.e. the hurt you've received from others -- and hand it all over to the Lord, you'll be amazed at how much of your physical, mental, and emotional woes will simply go away with them.  Yes, you'll still have some problems that you have to deal with.  And, no, they won't go away all at once.  But most of them will gradually disappear when you hand all this over to the Lord.

I appreciate the disclaimer that came before the meat of your post, and the thought and length you put into it. I used my own story since it is my story, and not the many stories of others I have heard.

There is a problem in the church, that is what I was getting at. And yes, my own issues are entangled in it. I would love it to be black and white: it never is. So for the sake of clarification, I recently found a way to express what I was getting at using an analogy in a direct message:

--------------------

I'm going to take a schoolyard analogy, even for its flaws: let's say you got beat up by a bunch of kids a couple grades higher than you despite you fighting back. The kids run away laughing at you. Getting along isn't going to happen, so you avoid.

You get some help to go to another class. You start hearing about other gangs and bullies in the school who are beating on other kids. In your current class you end up with another bully and his lackeys before you can transfer classes again. You find out the leader of the first gang that beat you up has been promoted to "helping" first-graders. The more you move, the more you see other kids living in fear, staring at the ground, shoulders hunched, and telling you that's just how it is.

You know going against this by yourself is a loss. That's what happened the first time. So you go to the teachers. The teachers tell you these kids aren't perfect, they're still learning. When that fails, you just start telling kids in other grades and classes in general. They tell you the same thing, chiming in stuff like they've never had any problems like this. "Oh, by the way, weren't you beat up by some of them? You're holding a grudge, aren't you? Maybe you need to work on forgiveness."

Meanwhile, some kids are hanging from their lockers by their underwear. The gangs push their way to the front of the cafeteria line and steal kids' lunch money. They force other kids to carry a stack of books they can't see over, then deliberately trip them. As soon as the teachers are out in the hall the bullies well-dressed and well-spoken, "Yes sir, yes ma'am," model students. The teachers smile and pat them on the head, wishing the other kids could be so good. Then they sigh disappointedly at the kids sprawled all over the floor, books everywhere.

[Edit: let me add to this analogy that I am now being admonished for complaining, a lot, about how things are, adding to the voices that I should accept things as they are.]

/end analogy 

[Edit: What I'm seeing is oppression, and my own experiences with it are fueling my drive to oppose it within the church.]

--------------------

So what I am trying to ask is: at what point does it stop being imperfect and start being oppression? At what point are basic human rights being trampled? Is having an issue with times of neglect, abuse, abandonment, and starvation considered complaining?

The way you speak of things is as though the Lord will sweep away all woes magically. Yet, Jesus has scars on his hands, feet, and sides. He was and is forever changed by what happened to Him. That's what happens to us. There is a type of restoration, but we are never going to be returned to our state of innocence as children. Certain things that are ripped away from us do not get returned. That's not how it works.

It's this sort of blindness that I am trying to pull at, to say that there are others, right next to you, who are broken down, who do not have your lovely position, who are oppressed and screaming, and you don't hear them or see them. You don't want to. You don't want to know the unpleasantness of that agony. Jesus knows, and His first two commandments were to love God and then love each other. Loving each other includes facing the unpleasantness of mortality: aging, death, agony.

You look at agony, and call it complaining. I say, how naive. How blessed. You want to put a band-aid on the cavity where the heart was ripped out, call it good enough, stop complaining, go to the Lord. Can you safely say that you have nothing but good intentions with that kind of attitude? 'cause I don't buy that. People tend to be a pile of intentions, and pure good intentions is rarely the only thing there.

I went to the Lord first. Without Him, I'd be dead and I'd have taken a lot of people with me. Things are really effed up and broken within the church, and there's a serious problem. You want to make it about me, I can understand that. I am a work in progress. However, I am saying that there is a lot more going on within the church than simply people with good intentions being imperfect. I was using my story as evidence.

Our heavenly family would back me up regarding anything you struggle to believe. That's what also surprises me about members of this church. How little people rely on the Holy Spirit, and how little discernment is used. I don't expect people to have revelations about me, I expect members to care about what's happening within the church, and we can all receive answers about that.

You see it that I feel like people owe me something. I feel entitled. Here is what I see: People who "profess to belong to the church of God" (Helaman 3:33-34), who supposedly acknowledge that they will live up to a certain set of standards, and they don't. Beyond that, they excuse and justify themselves for not living up to those standards. I am standing up to oppose the excuses, the pride, the narcissism.

I don't expect people to give me anything. What I expect are members of the church to actually believe in the gospel like they say they do. I expect abuse to be dealt with. I am standing up and saying it's not been dealt with, and getting slapped for it. I don't even expect what I'm doing will fix anything. I just don't want to be passive. When this cycle completes and the church is "ripe with iniquity" which it is well on its way, I want to look back on my death bed and know I opposed it the entire time. I want to stand before God and say I did my best and did literally everything I could do.

What I'm saying is that you, as a collective church, chose my narcissist stepdad and a liar bishop and rejected me, the scapegoat. You chose those 2, and you've chosen many, many others. You've chosen a stake president who screamed in someone's face that he would make sure this other man would never get into a temple. You've chosen another bishop who refused charity to a pregnant woman that the Catholic charity helped her family with. You've chosen other bishops and stake presidents I was reading about in these very forums. There are folks telling me in this very thread with full confidence that the people in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints cannot be counted on.

You find this acceptable. This is what I oppose. I was hoping more would find this unacceptable. But it's easier to blame me, find me unacceptable, than to face a system that is breaking down.

So when things fall apart, because they will, it will be from what everyone has collectively accepted, the behavior you've looked away from, the abuse and agony you refused to do anything about and called imperfection or complaining.

Every choice matters and it will come back around. Reading the Book of Mormon shows that.

I will leave you with this:

Mormon 8:36 And I know that ye do awalk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not blift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of cvery fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

Even. Every. One.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share