Prayer Dillema

[Fether]

Not necessarily a big issue, but an interesting question came through my mind this morning.

My sister came to live with me and my wife and is staying just for a month while my parent's house is getting built. School starts for her next week and she needs to be in town for it. Now an interesting thing about her, she has not always identified as a girl, but only a few months decided to transition from being a male to being a female. Yes, my sister is transgender.

Though my parents, other family members, and I don't believe that spiritually, she is a she, the whole family has taken the change rather well and we have all individually decided to adhere to her request to be referred to as "she". The only real difficulty is using her new name and referring to her as sister, aunt, she, and the like. But it is becoming more natural. I personally have gone as far as when I'm talking about things she did 5 years ago, I will still refer to my sister as "she", even when she is not around. All out of respect for my family member.

But here is where my little dilemma came in. While praying, I decided to specifically pray for her and for the first time since her transition started, I began to wonder if in prayer I should refer to my sister as the gender she prefers and believes she is... or the gender she really is. My conclusion is that it isn't too big of a deal and to just use "she", but I was just curious about you had to say.

Thoughts?

Edited August 11, 2019 by Fether

[NeuroTypical]

With transgender issues comes confusion over pronouns.   I can't tell you what to do, but if I were in your shoes, I'd try to figure out what God wants me to call my  sibling, and if He doesn't seem to have a firm opinion one way or the other, and someone'll get ticked off no matter which one I pick, I'd just use a lot of neutral language.   Like calling your sibling your sibling.  

It's tricky to love everyone in such a situation, I figure if everyone has a side, least I can do is refuse to pick one.

Edited August 11, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[Jedi_Nephite]

Your gender is an eternal attribute. It is not something that changes, regardless of what the world would like us to believe. As such, if your sibling was born male, I would pray using the male pronoun. Personally, I believe Heavenly  Father cares very much about what pronouns I use.  I would feel odd praying for someone if I refused to acknowledge their divine nature. You know your brother is not really a she, so why pretend he is when praying?

[priesthoodpower]

My moms sister transitioned from female to male when she was in her 30's (about 25 yrs ago). They are such good friends as well as sisters that my mom has this mental block and cannot look at him as anything other then her, my mom still calls him by her female name and refers to him as her. He doesnt mind and doesnt even bat an eye, but if anyone else ever refers to him as a "she", even his Mother, she gets mad.  

[Just_A_Guy]

I’m thinking of that line in Huck Finn about how you can’t pray a lie.

If, as a matter of courtesy, you use your brother’s preferred pronoun in his presence, that’s certainly none of my business (and even if it were, I’d have no beef with that).

But, as a matter of truth/objective reality, there’s still a Y chromosome.  Your brother’s a male, the emperor has no clothes, there are four lights, and all that jazz; and I’m not sure we do ourselves any favors when we buy into a delusion before God.

[Fether]

Love the insights, in fact my mind is being changed as we speak. I think in prayer I ought to refer to her as a male. 

As far as using her/him in public and in private, Ben Shapiro has a great take on it that he shares on a podcast with Joe Rogan. When speaking in the public square, he always refuses to buy into the transgender movement in any way shape or form, but in private interactions, he will respect their desires pronoun. He tells of a heated interaction with a transgender student that lead to the student running off crying. They cut that section from the Q&A and afterwards he took that student out to dinner where he used the preferred pronouns and said they had a pleasant time. Though Ben is not my moral compass, I do feel his approach is appropriate.

[mikbone]

Listening to a show right now about the American Indians wherein they never used the pronouns I or you, But instead they used we.

And we just got back from a meeting with Elder Bednar.  I got the impression that he does not like people using the pronoun I when asking questions.  And he made multiple statements like - 

“When you lose yourself in service to others, you find out who you are.”

We were lucky enough to see him twice in the past two days, yesterday with a youth conference and today for a stake conference.  

He must have stated at least half a dozen times, If you don’t ...., then you don’t know who you are.

I suspect that this new obsession to identify our personal needs, personal preferences, and forcing our personal gender identities upon others is another fabulous victory for Satan.

Edited August 12, 2019 by mikbone

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

Not necessarily a big issue, but an interesting question came through my mind this morning.

My sister came to live with me and my wife and is staying just for a month while my parent's house is getting built. School starts for her next week and she needs to be in town for it. Now an interesting thing about her, she has not always identified as a girl, but only a few months decided to transition from being a male to being a female. Yes, my sister is transgender.

Though my parents, other family members, and I don't believe that spiritually, she is a she, the whole family has taken the change rather well and we have all individually decided to adhere to her request to be referred to as "she". The only real difficulty is using her new name and referring to her as sister, aunt, she, and the like. But it is becoming more natural. I personally have gone as far as when I'm talking about things she did 5 years ago, I will still refer to my sister as "she", even when she is not around. All out of respect for my family member.

But here is where my little dilemma came in. While praying, I decided to specifically pray for her and for the first time since her transition started, I began to wonder if in prayer I should refer to my sister as the gender she prefers and believes she is... or the gender she really is. My conclusion is that it isn't too big of a deal and to just use "she", but I was just curious about you had to say.

Thoughts?

How do you feel praying one way versus the other? Pray whichever way brings the Spirit into your life and your sibling's. Only in rare instances will the XX can come across as male (e.g. De la Chapelle syndrome). We cannot tell whether this is an accident or God's way of correcting one -- except I suppose, through much prayer and fasting. I would encourage them to keep the commandments and grow close to God through baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and not be tempted to experiment with going outside of the covenants. For example, it may be better to delay priesthood conferral or office ordination than to participate in these responsibilities with resentment or as a woman.

[Grunt]

6 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m thinking of that line in Huck Finn about how you can’t pray a lie.

If, as a matter of courtesy, you use your brother’s preferred pronoun in his presence, that’s certainly none of my business (and even if it were, I’d have no beef with that).

But, as a matter of truth/objective reality, there’s still a Y chromosome.  Your brother’s a male, the emperor has no clothes, there are four lights, and all that jazz; and I’m not sure we do ourselves any favors when we buy into a delusion before God.

Personally, I don't necessarily cater to the mental illnesses of others.  It's easy for me to say, though, not having a family member with one.  I suppose I might think of it differently.  Darn missionaries made me call into repentance today, so who am I to talk.

[person0]

Given that gender is eternal, I don't think I would ever make any effort to change my use of pronouns for anyone.  That said, I could see myself avoiding the use of pronouns altogether.

BTW:  Aren't the SJW transgendered people these days claiming that they are "real men" and "real women"?  If so, wouldn't they want to stop using any "trans" terminology in reference to themselves?  Seems to me that using trans terminology is incidentally admitting they are not in actuality what they portray themselves to be.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, person0 said:

Given that gender is eternal, I don't think I would ever make any effort to change my use of pronouns for anyone.  That said, I could see myself avoiding the use of pronouns altogether.

BTW:  Aren't the SJW transgendered people these days claiming that they are "real men" and "real women"?  If so, wouldn't they want to stop using any "trans" terminology in reference to themselves?  Seems to me that using trans terminology is incidentally admitting they are not in actuality what they portray themselves to be.

Most transgendered people I know just want to be referred to as John, or Stacy or Mark or Diane. Not as "Transgendered Steve" 

[Fether]

35 minutes ago, person0 said:

BTW:  Aren't the SJW transgendered people these days claiming that they are "real men" and "real women"?  If so, wouldn't they want to stop using any "trans" terminology in reference to themselves?  Seems to me that using trans terminology is incidentally admitting they are not in actuality what they portray themselves to be.

My sister is actually super cool about the whole thing. She hasn’t gone SJW in any sense of the word.  Neither has my gay brother. Neither of them were far enough into the church in the first place to hate it, and aren’t really bugged by our beliefs or by any SJW triggering topic.

[NeuroTypical]

So, a lot of years ago, I encountered a mentally ill person.  He was an old guy lying on the grass of our chapel, on a Tuesday morning, and I stopped to see if I could help.  It was immediately apparent that his brain wasn't functioning properly.  Paranoid delusional or schizophrenic, if I had to make an uneducated layman's guess.   Once he saw me he jumped up and began his story.  He had been struck lame by the Lord, and he had to write a letter that had been given to him in a vision.  I helped him write the letter.  Through his horrible spelling and grammar, it seemed to be an end times prophecy centering around his wife, who was the reincarnated virgin Mary, and had committed adultery three times as foretold in Revelation, once with Elvis.  It went on and on and on.  By the time his letter was done, he had calmed down and warmed up, and said he was hungry and was going to go home. 

I called the bishop to see if he knew anything, and I could hear him roll his eyes over the phone.  "Yep, that's brother so-and-so, he gets that way when he stops taking his medication.  I'll call his wife."

I guess Grunt's comment sparked this memory.  Not sure if it applies here or not.  I suppose I'm still trying to figure out if I did the guy any favors by catering to his mental illness.  Doing so did get him up off the lawn on a cold fall morning in the 40's. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Personally, I don't necessarily cater to the mental illnesses of others.  It's easy for me to say, though, not having a family member with one.  I suppose I might think of it differently.  Darn missionaries made me call into repentance today, so who am I to talk.

I was shouting the same thing from the roof top four months ago. But because one of my best friends and siblings is going through it, I have taken a softer and more respectful approach. 

But don’t get me wrong. I will never agree with the movement and I am always quick to clarify what “support” means when she or anyone asks me if I support her transition. 

But seeing that transgenders have such a high rate of suicide, my sister has a history of anxiety, I will be interacting with her a ton, and that she never really believed in God... I find that it would be more destructive and unhealthy for everyone (particularly her) if I was vocal about my disagreement, called her mentally ill for wanting to transition, preaching the proclamation to the family, and refusing to call her what she strongly believes she is.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Fether

[NeuroTypical]

Quote

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Sometimes it's hard to figure out what we're supposed to "do unto" some folks.  But your heart sure seems to be in the right place.

Edited August 12, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

Not necessarily a big issue, but an interesting question came through my mind this morning.

My sister came to live with me and my wife and is staying just for a month while my parent's house is getting built. School starts for her next week and she needs to be in town for it. Now an interesting thing about her, she has not always identified as a girl, but only a few months decided to transition from being a male to being a female. Yes, my sister is transgender.

Though my parents, other family members, and I don't believe that spiritually, she is a she, the whole family has taken the change rather well and we have all individually decided to adhere to her request to be referred to as "she". The only real difficulty is using her new name and referring to her as sister, aunt, she, and the like. But it is becoming more natural. I personally have gone as far as when I'm talking about things she did 5 years ago, I will still refer to my sister as "she", even when she is not around. All out of respect for my family member.

But here is where my little dilemma came in. While praying, I decided to specifically pray for her and for the first time since her transition started, I began to wonder if in prayer I should refer to my sister as the gender she prefers and believes she is... or the gender she really is. My conclusion is that it isn't too big of a deal and to just use "she", but I was just curious about you had to say.

Thoughts?

Honestly, it's just something I would take to the Lord.

[mordorbund]

13 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I suppose I'm still trying to figure out if I did the guy any favors by catering to his mental illness.  Doing so did get him up off the lawn on a cold fall morning in the 40's. 

I didn't realize you were that old....

[Traveler]

I am caught between two opinions or points of view.  One is honesty and the other compassion.  I have learned in life that there are times when honesty seems to be in conflict with compassion and vice versa.  When faced with such conflict I will use the symbolism similar to what I have learned when I go to Cosco; that whatever line I get in - it will end up the wrong (slowest) line.  I have tried changing lines or just staying with the initial choice.   I have decided that there are some choices that for me never turn out well.  I am worse in dealing with mental people.

I am convinced that no matter what I do - mental people remain mental.  So in essence I try to get along but when things go sideways (which will always happen because life is like that) I will not put up with them gaslighting me or anyone else - I will not share responsibility or allow blame into something outside as being responsible for decision clearly made on the inside.  And if a person is not willing to be responsible for their choices - I have no intention in supporting what they are not willing to be responsible for. 

I think I would say that I believe they have not only spilt all the marbles and lost them all as well - but love is what I give - not what I think or believe.  Love is not something someone can take.  Trust is something a person can build but can only be built on a foundation of honesty and has nothing to do with anyone else's opinion.

 

The Traveler

[Grunt]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am caught between two opinions or points of view.  One is honesty and the other compassion.  I have learned in life that there are times when honesty seems to be in conflict with compassion and vice versa.  When faced with such conflict I will use the symbolism similar to what I have learned when I go to Cosco; that whatever line I get in - it will end up the wrong (slowest) line.  I have tried changing lines or just staying with the initial choice.   I have decided that there are some choices that for me never turn out well.  I am worse in dealing with mental people.

I am convinced that no matter what I do - mental people remain mental.  So in essence I try to get along but when things go sideways (which will always happen because life is like that) I will not put up with them gaslighting me or anyone else - I will not share responsibility or allow blame into something outside as being responsible for decision clearly made on the inside.  And if a person is not willing to be responsible for their choices - I have no intention in supporting what they are not willing to be responsible for. 

I think I would say that I believe they have not only spilt all the marbles and lost them all as well - but love is what I give - not what I think or believe.  Love is not something someone can take.  Trust is something a person can build but can only be built on a foundation of honesty and has nothing to do with anyone else's opinion.

 

The Traveler

See, I'm not sure honesty and compassion have to be exclusive.  The truth is the truth.  You can control the love you deliver it with.  You can control whether you even deliver it at all.  You can't control how it is received.  That is owned by the recipient.

[Fether]

22 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You can't control how it is received.  That is owned by the recipient.

But if the recipient doesn’t receive it well and is deeply hurt by it, than does it continue to be both honest and compassionate to continue to say it in spite of the recipient’s pain?

[Grunt]

16 minutes ago, Fether said:

But if the recipient doesn’t receive it well and is deeply hurt by it, than does it continue to be both honest and compassionate to continue to say it in spite of the recipient’s pain?

I wouldn't think so, but there has to be some point, before saying things you know not to be true, where a line can be drawn.  I mean, the alternative shouldn't have to be capitulation.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Grunt

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

See, I'm not sure honesty and compassion have to be exclusive.  The truth is the truth.  You can control the love you deliver it with.  You can control whether you even deliver it at all.  You can't control how it is received.  That is owned by the recipient.

let me give you an example.  Let's say you have a son in junior high school and a star on the junior high football team.  You know his speed is good for that level but you know that their speed and size will limit their possibilities.  You know they like the sport but often skip practice because they do not like practice that much.  But this son tell you that someday they will be a professional and win the super bowl.  The truth is that unless they put a lot more into practice and dedicate themselves much more - they do not have a professional chance.  So what do  you tell them as their dad - the full truth and crush not only their junior high dream but take all the fun they are currently having in the game.  Remember this is a junior high kid without a fully developed brain necessarily of high level executive logic.  Or do you just encourage them to set goals and offer to help get them to all the practices and games to root them on - when you are quite sure they really do not have a clue what they are wishing for.

The scriptures say there is a time and season for everything.  So I wonder how you would like to be treated.  Would you like to be told you are not bishop material because you lack real compassion? or would you like to be encouraged to overcome weaknesses and not worry if you are called to be a bishop or not.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

let me give you an example.  Let's say you have a son in junior high school and a star on the junior high football team.  You know his speed is good for that level but you know that their speed and size will limit their possibilities.  You know they like the sport but often skip practice because they do not like practice that much.  But this son tell you that someday they will be a professional and win the super bowl.  The truth is that unless they put a lot more into practice and dedicate themselves much more - they do not have a professional chance.  So what do  you tell them as their dad - the full truth and crush not only their junior high dream but take all the fun they are currently having in the game.  Remember this is a junior high kid without a fully developed brain necessarily of high level executive logic.  Or do you just encourage them to set goals and offer to help get them to all the practices and games to root them on - when you are quite sure they really do not have a clue what they are wishing for.

The scriptures say there is a time and season for everything.  So I wonder how you would like to be treated.  Would you like to be told you are not bishop material because you lack real compassion? or would you like to be encouraged to overcome weaknesses and not worry if you are called to be a bishop or not.

 

The Traveler

As a child I loved baseball. I still do, I have season tickets to the Tampa Rays and Florida Gators baseball teams. I'm watching the Cleveland-Boston game as I write this. 

I tried so hard to be good at the sport but the talent just wasn't there.  I have no athletic ability, couldn't throw, couldn't hit, couldn't really run. But I had amazing passion. I showed up early, stayed late, and basically out worked everyone to play Little League and Babe Ruth. I would have sold my soul to play better, but I just didn't have the skill needed to play. In fact, I was so bad that it was obvious to everyone I would be cut from a high school team, much less anything higher. 

My dad didn't need to tell me that a career in baseball wasn't in the cards, but if I was like the person you are describing-a dad needs to set them straight. He needs to tell them that the odds of being a pro athlete are 1% and if you think you have the skills and abilities to do so, you need to practice and work harder than everyone. The real world can be an uncaring place, and frankly, a good dad will tell you that and set you up for it.  When I finally picked English to major in in college, my dad correctly said "That's fine, but getting a job will be harder with that BA. I want you to be happy, but I want you to be realistic." He was right about that too, though I'm very happy with how my life has turned out. 

Now, that doesn't mean a good dad would point and laugh at you, saying  "Ha ha ha you loser you are horrible at baseball give it up!" That means dad says, in his best voice possible, "Son, I love you but sports aren't for you. Have you considered something else?" We should all be like that dad-telling his son a hard life truth, but focusing on being loving and caring part as well. 

*Just to be clear, I've seen many cases where the mom is the tougher, more realistic one and the dad is the nurturing, caring one. That doesn't mean the dad is weak, doesn't "wear the pants" , etc. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by MormonGator

[mirkwood]

Yep.  My dad saw my talent level and encouraged me to keep working and practicing.  I was not quite college level, but I figured that out myself.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 hours ago, mirkwood said:

Yep.  My dad saw my talent level and encouraged me to keep working and practicing.  I was not quite college level, but I figured that out myself.

In all of my time "playing" Little League, I got a grand total of three hits. Amazingly, one was a game wining home run. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by MormonGator