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carlimac

Question on immigration. Does this sound right?

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I'm trying to squelch any feelings of bigotry by getting correct information. I have a bleeding heart friend who said this on facebook. 

"Don’t try and ‘other’ your way out of this situation. This is the difference of luck. Of Melanin in your skin. My friends who have been living in America close to 20 years - came with papers, been trying to go through channels for 20 years, laws keep changing- they were assigned SS # upon arriving- they have been paying taxes since they came - and the parents were “arrested” and are being held for deportation. They have a home, they have 3 kids - 2 are DACA and one is a citizen- our country has created a no win situation. People are here, working, living, and paying taxes. Yet they are not allowed to vote, not allowed to have a voice and not allowed citizenship. This is not their problem! This is our governments problem- and the government“solution “ is to rip families apart. Leave all of them financial, emotionally, and psychologically, devastated." 

And then it went on and on with white privilege stuff and we are all immigrants, etc, etc.!

There is something about this story that doesn't add up. Can anyone who knows what's what with immigration tell me what went on here or is she scrambling the story? 

 

* I haven't engaged with her on this particular post ( which is one of three in the last 10 days with the same sentiments- different stories about different people.) She is the kind that if you question or offer a different opinion she comes at you with a firehose. *If* I do answer her post I want to be informed and educated- not just emotional. I tried researching some of this but  I'm not finding clear answers since the story started 20 years ago. 

Edited by carlimac

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I'm not sure what "laws keep changing" refers to.  Which laws?  I haven't heard of anything that would cause an arrest that wouldn't have caused an arrest 10 years ago.

If they have a citizen child who is essentially an anchor baby, that is still cause to allow the parents to stay in the US.  The DACA kids are not supposed to be here.  This was only an executive order, not a law.  Trump abolished it, but courts are still fighting it.  We'll see how that turns out.

The claim that it has everything to do with melanin is a complete fabrication.  Nothing more.  The same policies are being enforced against illegal aliens from European countries as well.  But the news loves to bash Trump so much and are mezmerized by any accusation of racism, that the only ones they show on the news are the ones at the southern border.

BIG POINT TO REMEMBER:

There is a big difference between "Becoming a US Citizen" and having "Lawful Presence" in the US.  There is another status called "Permanent Resident".  This used to be called "Resident Alien" -- and the IRS still does.  This refers to someone who holds a Green Card.  This means that you're basically treated like a citizen with a few restrictions.

You're right.  This person's story doesn't add up.

https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2013/03/how-permanent-residents-become-us-citizens.html

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37 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I'm trying to squelch any feelings of bigotry by getting correct information. I have a bleeding heart friend who said this on facebook. 

"Don’t try and ‘other’ your way out of this situation. This is the difference of luck. Of Melanin in your skin. My friends who have been living in America close to 20 years - came with papers, been trying to go through channels for 20 years, laws keep changing- they were assigned SS # upon arriving- they have been paying taxes since they came - and the parents were “arrested” and are being held for deportation. They have a home, they have 3 kids - 2 are DACA and one is a citizen- our country has created a no win situation. People are here, working, living, and paying taxes. Yet they are not allowed to vote, not allowed to have a voice and not allowed citizenship. This is not their problem! This is our governments problem- and the government“solution “ is to rip families apart. Leave all of them financial, emotionally, and psychologically, devastated." 

And then it went on and on with white privilege stuff and we are all immigrants, etc, etc.!

There is something about this story that doesn't add up. Can anyone who knows what's what with immigration tell me what went on here or is she scrambling the story? 

 

* I haven't engaged with her on this particular post ( which is one of three in the last 10 days with the same sentiments- different stories about different people.) She is the kind that if you question or offer a different opinion she comes at you with a firehose. *If* I do answer her post I want to be informed and educated- not just emotional. I tried researching some of this but  I'm not finding clear answers since the story started 20 years ago. 

 

Facts:

1.)  Just because you pay taxes doesn't mean you are a citizen and can vote.  I'm a LEGAL resident.  I pay taxes.  I am not a citizen.  If I want to vote, I have to APPLY for citizenship.

2.)  Just because you have an SS# doesn't mean you are a citizen.  Nor does it mean you are allowed to work for pay in the USA.  I entered the US legally through a student's visa.  I applied for an SS# to enroll in school.  My SS# is not valid for employment purposes outside of the school that sponsored my student's visa.  I am not a citizen.  For my SS# to become valid for work outside of the school, I had to apply for a work permit.  Most student visa applicants for work permit are denied.  All student visa holders have 2 years after they graduate to convert their visas to working visas - they are issued temporary work permits within these 2 years.

3.)  Just because you entered the US legally doesn't mean you can stay legally indefinitely.  For example, I entered with a student's visa.  If I graduate or stop school or the school stops sponsoring me for some reason, my student's visa ends.  Continuing to stay in the USA with an expired visa would make me an ILLEGAL immigrant.

4.)  If you have a DACA kid, that means you are an illegal immigrant.  If you have 2 DACA kids and one citizen kid, more than likely you entered the country illegally with 2 kids and then gave birth to the 3rd kid in the USA.  The kid born in the USA doesn't automatically make anybody a legal citizen.  When the child becomes an adult, he can sponsor his parents for permanent residency in the US (become legal resident).  The parents will then be able to apply for citizenship after 5 years and sponsor their other kids for permanent residency.  This is what they call Chain Migration.

5.) All these stay true regardless of your skin color or country of origin.

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My mom is a resident alien.  She has lived here and raised her family here.  She is here legally and lawfully.  She is not a citizen. She can not vote.  She pays taxes.

That being said strong case can be made that our laws on immigration are overly complex and cumbersome.  Add to that inconsistent enforcement of the law depending on what party is in power.  This can definitely lead to confusion, and some people setting up homes that legally should not be.

That is why I think our priorities should be to secure the borders, clean up the immigration laws, then clean up internally.  I think if we get the first two... then it becomes an easier  to offer amnesty for the immigrants... whose only crime is illegal entry.  However the first two must come first... because we have been burned by offering amnesty first and the second two never happened. 

 

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1 hour ago, carlimac said:

My friends who have been living in America close to 20 years - came with papers, been trying to go through channels for 20 years, laws keep changing- they were assigned SS # upon arriving- they have been paying taxes since they came - and the parents were “arrested” and are being held for deportation. They have a home, they have 3 kids - 2 are DACA and one is a citizen- our country has created a no win situation.

Based on a quick internet search:  It appears that the parents were resident aliens.  As such, they have some restrictions such as: how long they can be outside the US in a given year.

Assuming they weren't arrested for some normally criminal reason, it would appear that they violated one of the conditions of maintaining a green card (such as days of residence).  If they broke that, they can have their green card revoked and deported.

Changing laws should have nothing to do with it.  I'm no expert.  But the process from resident alien to citizen is pretty straight forward -- and hasn't changed significantly in ages.  I have no idea why it would take so long.  The best guess that I can come up with is that only so many people can be granted citizenship each year.  And their country of origin has overrun the US already.

Edited by Mores

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35 minutes ago, Mores said:

Based on a quick internet search:  It appears that the parents were resident aliens.  As such, they have some restrictions such as: how long they can be outside the US in a given year.

Assuming they weren't arrested for some normally criminal reason, it would appear that they violated one of the conditions of maintaining a green card (such as days of residence).  If they broke that, they can have their green card revoked and deported.

Changing laws should have nothing to do with it.  I'm no expert.  But the process from resident alien to citizen is pretty straight forward -- and hasn't changed significantly in ages.  I have no idea why it would take so long.  The best guess that I can come up with is that only so many people can be granted citizenship each year.  And their country of origin has overrun the US already.

Wait...

Okay, so days of residence... if a resident alien goes out of country for more than 1 year, they would need a re-entry permit to enter back into the US.  This is a pretty straightforward application and I've never heard of anybody who got denied a re-entry permit.  You would apply for this BEFORE you travel because USCIS could deny your application (although highly unlikely especially if you don't have a bad record and especially if you have a citizen kid).   They usually issue a 2-year permit (I haven't heard of one that's less than that).  If you travel back into the US without a re-entry permit, the airline will not sell you a ticket (because they could be liable for taking you back to where you came from).  So, you would have to go through the northern or southern border and enter illegally.  Then you're treated like any other illegal entrant. 

So, the parents are resident aliens who might have violated the terms of their green card?  Okay, based on everything I know as a resident alien, yes, you can get deported for violating the terms of your residency for reasons like... you voted for a federal election.  BUT, especially having a citizen kid, you have to have done something really heinous - like defraud a small business out of a million dollars or beat up an old woman in a nursing home or be suspected of involvement in a criminal gang or a jihadist cell or a mass shooting or... piss off some Congressman or something like that for them to use that violation to be brought up for deportation proceedings.  You don't just get deported without a hearing and having you put through a hearing taking the time of a Fed Judge back-logged from processing asylum claims so they can deport an illegal voter is just... not a common occurrence, especially having a citizen kid.

 

Edited by anatess2

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

That being said strong case can be made that our laws on immigration are overly complex and cumbersome. 

I would change the above to:  all our laws are overly complex and cumbersome.

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25 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I would change the above to:  all our laws are overly complex and cumbersome.

Agreed.  There should be, and should have been a Law, or possibly even a constitutional amendment to make it so that each law can only address 1 thing, except with better legal language.  Essentially serving the purpose of requiring a separate vote for every line item.

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56 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

 

So, the parents are resident aliens who might have violated the terms of the terms of their green card? You don't just get deported without a hearing and having you put through a hearing taking the time of a Fed Judge back-logged from processing asylum claims so they can deport an illegal voter is just... not a common occurrence, especially having a citizen kid.

 

I asked her for more specifics but I doubt she’ll respond. She knows I have different viewpoints from hers. My guess is there were mistakes made/ appointments missed, either due to work schedules or bad lawyers or language barriers. Could be the offices are run by inept folks. Or simply the  adults taking everything casually and thinking they’d just do it later. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s one of the workers in my friends’ business.  

I don’t think she is interested in those things. Only that the parents are being separated from their children. But the same thing happens to parents who are American citizens if they break the law. So... 🤔

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

Agreed.  There should be, and should have been a Law, or possibly even a constitutional amendment to make it so that each law can only address 1 thing, except with better legal language.  Essentially serving the purpose of requiring a separate vote for every line item.

I see two huge problems with this. #1, the Constitution empowers Congress to make laws. By definition, laws created by Congress and signed by the President ARE Constitutional. The only possible exception (and problem #2) is that the Supreme Court can decide that a given law, even one duly passed by Congress and signed by the President, violates previous Constitutional provisions. This is actually quite terrifying, meaning as it does that the Supreme Court gets to decide what is law and what is not*. Do we really want to give the Supreme Court a tool whereby they can invalidate literally any law they don't like just by finding some pretext that says it addresses more than one thing? I do not. The Supreme Court is already far too powerful.

*For example: The people of California passed a law called the Defense of Marriage Act, which defined "marriage" as a heterosexual relationship. There was in actual fact no violation either of the US Constitution or the California state constitution. Yet the California courts invented a reason why it supposedly violated the state constitution, and the higher courts upheld this specious reasoning. Shades of 1973's Roe v Wade debacle, where supposed "rights" were manufactured from whole cloth by pretending the existence of a "right to privacy" and then extending that "right" in an absurd way to protect prenatal infanticide. Even pro-abortion partisan lawyers shook their heads at that one. I can only trust that, as with the rest of us, Harry Blackmun will answer (perhaps has already answered) to his Creator for that action.

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4 hours ago, carlimac said:

the government“solution “ is to rip families apart.

If this is someone's true thought, then logically they should also be opposed to letting migrants come here with children/spouses/other dependants in other countries. It disgusts me when people from any country leave their children or spouses, even if it is to get financial footing. My mission comp's dad moved to Canada to "better provide child support" and never came back. He was a recommend holder at the time. I also think if the church is going to question people about being a law abiding citizen before baptism, they should also question them in terms of how well they are fulfilling thier familial role. You can't fill your familial role if you choose to revoke vertain rsponsibilities in order to live in another country, or times even another state.

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1 hour ago, carlimac said:

I asked her for more specifics but I doubt she’ll respond. She knows I have different viewpoints from hers. My guess is there were mistakes made/ appointments missed, either due to work schedules or bad lawyers or language barriers. Could be the offices are run by inept folks. Or simply the  adults taking everything casually and thinking they’d just do it later. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s one of the workers in my friends’ business.  

I don’t think she is interested in those things. Only that the parents are being separated from their children. But the same thing happens to parents who are American citizens if they break the law. So... 🤔

Hmm... this kinda sounds like she came through the border illegally, then claimed asylum with her 2 children, didn't get to a judge before 20 days was up so she got released with her 2 kids into the US with a summons to appear at a later date but she never appeared at the designated court date (which 90% of these cases never do because they're actually economic migrants and not asylees - asylees usually go through the proper port of entry)... 20 years go by, she gives birth to the 3rd child in the US but she never appeared.  That would cause her 2 kids to be DACA, her 3rd kid to be a citizen, and she get called for deportation proceedings.

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11 hours ago, carlimac said:

I'm trying to squelch any feelings of bigotry by getting correct information. I have a bleeding heart friend who said this on facebook. 

"Don’t try and ‘other’ your way out of this situation. This is the difference of luck. Of Melanin in your skin. My friends who have been living in America close to 20 years - came with papers, been trying to go through channels for 20 years, laws keep changing- they were assigned SS # upon arriving- they have been paying taxes since they came - and the parents were “arrested” and are being held for deportation. They have a home, they have 3 kids - 2 are DACA and one is a citizen- our country has created a no win situation. People are here, working, living, and paying taxes. Yet they are not allowed to vote, not allowed to have a voice and not allowed citizenship. This is not their problem! This is our governments problem- and the government“solution “ is to rip families apart. Leave all of them financial, emotionally, and psychologically, devastated." 

And then it went on and on with white privilege stuff and we are all immigrants, etc, etc.!

There is something about this story that doesn't add up. Can anyone who knows what's what with immigration tell me what went on here or is she scrambling the story? 

 

* I haven't engaged with her on this particular post ( which is one of three in the last 10 days with the same sentiments- different stories about different people.) She is the kind that if you question or offer a different opinion she comes at you with a firehose. *If* I do answer her post I want to be informed and educated- not just emotional. I tried researching some of this but  I'm not finding clear answers since the story started 20 years ago. 

It is possible that your friend is telling the truth and is referring to a TPS immigrant (Temporary Protected Status immigrant).   She could have came here legally and a lot of TPS immigrants have been here for 20 years or more.    Immigrants under TPS can be deported if they haven't broken any laws, etc.  

Laws and policies on TPS have recently been changing, though some of it has been tied up in the courts.  

This might be what she is referring to.  

 

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10 hours ago, Scott said:

It is possible that your friend is telling the truth and is referring to a TPS immigrant (Temporary Protected Status immigrant).   She could have came here legally and a lot of TPS immigrants have been here for 20 years or more.    Immigrants under TPS can be deported if they haven't broken any laws, etc.  

Laws and policies on TPS have recently been changing, though some of it has been tied up in the courts.  

This might be what she is referring to.  

 

I really don’t know. This is a friend talking on Facebook about a family she knows. So it’s second hand . It’s possible for the story to get scrambled in translation. But this is helpful to know. Thank you.

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10 hours ago, Scott said:

It is possible that your friend is telling the truth and is referring to a TPS immigrant (Temporary Protected Status immigrant).   She could have came here legally and a lot of TPS immigrants have been here for 20 years or more.    Immigrants under TPS can be deported if they haven't broken any laws, etc.  

Laws and policies on TPS have recently been changing, though some of it has been tied up in the courts.  

This might be what she is referring to.  

 

Thanks for bringing this up.  But it appears that these people have forgotten the first word in the initialism: TEMPORARY.  This status was never meant to be permanent.  And it was never meant to be a pathway to citizenship.  Hence: TEMPORARY.

If the disaster or whatever temporary condition has gone away, then they are SUPPOSED to be deported.

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11 hours ago, Scott said:

It is possible that your friend is telling the truth and is referring to a TPS immigrant (Temporary Protected Status immigrant).   She could have came here legally and a lot of TPS immigrants have been here for 20 years or more.    Immigrants under TPS can be deported if they haven't broken any laws, etc.  

Laws and policies on TPS have recently been changing, though some of it has been tied up in the courts.  

This might be what she is referring to.  

 

First of all, TPS children are not DACA.  They're TPS too.  So, that already blows that theory.

In any case, TPS only applies to very few countries (war-torn) - off the top of my head currently, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Sudan, El Salvador, Hondoras, Haiti.  Nicaragua might still be in it - got TPS due to a hurricane.

If that person has been here for 20 years and she's TPS, she would have had to have come from Lebanon, Kuwait, Yugoslavia, or El Salvador.  All TPS countries 20 years ago have been off the TPS list for quite a while except for El Salvador.  So, if she's from El Salvador, then yes, she could still be legally TPS.  If she's from those other countries that have been taken off the TPS list and she's still here, then yes, she's an illegal immigrant and can be deported.  Although, as I've said, those with legal entry papers (documented) and failed to exit when the authorization expires are of a lower priority in deportation hearings than those who are undocumented, especially one with a US Citizen child.  And with the Fed Courts being swamped with undocumented immigrants, they have been largely ignored unless they commit other crimes like be on MS-13 or be a jihadist or something.

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I think we can all sympathize with someone who is trying to follow the legal process to immigrate.

I think we can also all sympathize with not putting your life on hold as the process drags on (20 years wow).

I also think we can all sympathize with after waiting and building the panic and desperation of being denied. (Even if maybe you did something a little foolish to trigger such denial).

All that sympathy however does not mean that that the denial is racially motivated or that accusations of racism are factual.

It does however reinforce the need to fix/cleanup how things are currently being handled.

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5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If that person has been here for 20 years and she's TPS, she would have had to have come from Lebanon, Kuwait, Yugoslavia, or El Salvador.  All TPS countries 20 years ago have been off the TPS list for quite a while except for El Salvador.  So, if she's from El Salvador, then yes, she could still be legally TPS.  

Honduras and Nicaragua were the ones I was thinking of because TPS has been in place for over 20 years, but TPS will or has expired this year.

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6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

First of all, TPS children are not DACA.  They're TPS too.  So, that already blows that theory.

DACA is for people who came here as children rather than children who were born here.  Children born here would be citizens even if the parents were still under TPS.  So if the children were born here and the parent's TPS status ended, they could be separated (the original post says that one child is a citizen while the others are DACA). 

Quite a few people legally living here under TPS have had children here and some of the parents have been here for 20+ years.

I'm not arguing whether this is right or wrong, but only pointing out that it might be what is being referred to in the original post.

Edited by Scott

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7 hours ago, Mores said:

Thanks for bringing this up.  But it appears that these people have forgotten the first word in the initialism: TEMPORARY.  This status was never meant to be permanent.  And it was never meant to be a pathway to citizenship.  Hence: TEMPORARY.

Yes, this is true.   TPS in itself isn't a pathway to citizenship.   Those who are here under TPS are however in theory are eligible and encouraged to apply for citizenship using the standard practice of applying for citizenship.

Quote

If the disaster or whatever temporary condition has gone away, then they are SUPPOSED to be deported.

If they are ineligible for citizenship or have no citizenship, yes.

The reason there is a problem is because (as mentioned earlier), some of the TPS immigrants have been under TPS for 20+ years and have been applying for citizenship during that time.  TPS programs from places like Nicaragua or Honduras have lasted 20+ years and those immigrants were here legally during that time period.   They have worked here, have careers here, had children here, have property here, all while being stuck in the system applying for citizenship.

By law, they can be deported as soon as the TPS expires, just as you point out.    

If people really want immigration reform, things like TPS must be adressed, but how to do so?    It seems that one solution would be to decide how long TPS for a natural disaster will last before hand, rather than dragging it out for 20+ years.

When it comes to the law though, you are 100% correct.   Anyone who came here under TPS can be deported once the TPS expires.   

Edited by Scott

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6 hours ago, Scott said:

DACA is for people who came here as children rather than children who were born here.  Children born here would be citizens even if the parents were still under TPS.  So if the children were born here and the parent's TPS status ended, they could be separated (the original post says that one child is a citizen while the others are DACA). 

Quite a few people legally living here under TPS have had children here and some of the parents have been here for 20+ years.

I'm not arguing whether this is right or wrong, but only pointing out that it might be what is being referred to in the original post.

If you are TPS, your 2 children that came with you are also TPS and not DACA.  If you give birth here to your 3rd child, then you have 2 TPS kids and one American kid by current interpretation of the law.  You still have no DACA kids.  If your TPS expires, your 2 kids' TPS also expires, and you all go home.  The kids don't magically become DACA.  The 3rd child may stay if you want to separate from your 3rd child - there's no law that forces the 3rd kid to stay in the US.

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13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If you are TPS, your 2 children that came with you are also TPS and not DACA.  If you give birth here to your 3rd child, then you have 2 TPS kids and one American kid by current interpretation of the law.  You still have no DACA kids.  If your TPS expires, your 2 kids' TPS also expires, and you all go home.  The kids don't magically become DACA.  The 3rd child may stay if you want to separate from your 3rd child - there's no law that forces the 3rd kid to stay in the US.

Yes, you are correct.  Not sure what situation the original post is referring to.

Concerning your last sentence, that would be true as long as the country they are being deported to allows the immigration of the third child (he/she would be a US citizen; not a citizen that the parents are being deported to).  What happens if the other country doesn't?  I'm actually not sure.

 

Edited by Scott

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6 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, this is true.   TPS in itself isn't a pathway to citizenship.   Those who are here under TPS are however in theory are eligible and encouraged to apply for citizenship using the standard practice of applying for citizenship.

If they are ineligible for citizenship or have no citizenship, yes.

The reason there is a problem is because (as mentioned earlier), some of the TPS immigrants have been under TPS for 20+ years and have been applying for citizenship during that time.  TPS programs from places like Nicaragua or Honduras have lasted 20+ years and those immigrants were here legally during that time period.   They have worked here, have careers here, had children here, have property here, all while being stuck in the system applying for citizenship.

By law, they can be deported as soon as the TPS expires, just as you point out.    

If people really want immigration reform, things like TPS must be adressed, but how to do so?    It seems that one solution would be to decide how long TPS for a natural disaster will last before hand, rather than dragging it out for 20+ years.

When it comes to the law though, you are 100% correct.   Anyone who came here under TPS can be deported once the TPS expires.   

TPS are ALWAYS issued with expiry dates.  The date may be extended if the situation has not changed.  But all TPS holders SHOULD prepare to go home at the given expiry date upon issue.

TPS does not have a pathway to citizenship or permanent residency.

The only way a TPS can get a green card or citizenship is to do what every other non-American do who want to legally stay in the USA... apply for all the other visas available that you qualify for.  I worked with Bosnian TPS back in the 90's.  I helped those who decided to stay past the 2001 expiry date by helping them qualify for student's visa or work sponsor.

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2 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes, you are correct.  Not sure what situation the original post is referring to.

Concerning your last sentence, that would be true as long as the country they are being deported to allows the immigration of the third child (he/she would be a US citizen; not a citizen that the parents are being deported to).  What happens if the other country doesn't?  I'm actually not sure.

 

There are 2 types of natural born citizenship - jus soli and jus sanguine.  It is very rare for a country (I actually don't know of any), that do not have jus sanguine citizenship.  It is more rare to have a jus soli citizenship like the US does.  But the US also goes by jus sanguine.

In other words, I do not know of any country who will not recognize a child born to their citizens as a citizen regardless of the place the child was birthed in.

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P.S.  I take that back, the Vatican is one country that doesnt have jus sanguine... but they don't have natural-born citizenship either - neither jus sanguine nor jus soli.  All Vatican citizens are citizens by jus officii... Children born to Vatican citizens or born inside the Vatican either take the dual citizenship of their parents or become Italians not Vaticans if the child, for some reason, is not claimed by any parent.

Edited by anatess2

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