Seek

First Vision; Second Personage: Heavenly Mother?

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

I am curious to know what all of you think, as to my purpose in being here and asking questions.  Perhaps I have no use for youthful responses from youthful missionaries, or the like.  That I am needing to explore a deeper and more mystical side of things.

May I suggest two possibilities - One may be to discover truths.  But there may be another, that appears to me to be a most popular motive among mortals - that is to gartify pride.

There is a most interesting psychological principle called "Occam's Razor" that suggests if there are plural possibilities of truth being considered - it is the simplest possibility that should be given the highest regard.  Thus it appears to me - that at least in this regard (Occam's Razor) that by discounting the most simple possibilities - you are not about discovering truths.  

I have based this logic on the limited information that you have provided from a few statements on the forum.  Perhaps you would like to elaborate more (provide examples) of what you are attempting to accomplish?

 

The Traveler

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13 hours ago, Seek said:

@Traveler

I am curious to know what exactly it is that exalted men worship—that is, if we assume there is ultimately no Lord, above.  Do they even worship as they once did, or still harbor faith as before?  

I suppose that exalted men worship each other as members of the one....  And put their faith in each other, as members of the one....  Worshiping the glory of their own.  This is what you were alluding to, correct?

Perhaps the reason that many at the religious level are hesitant to adopt the notion of equality with God, is that, they recognize the implications of mere belief; and they see how various notions of deity alter the disposition of our spirit in various ways when worshiped.

In addition to @Traveler's excellent response above, I am reminded of President McConkie's talk on this topic back in 1971.

Excerpts from the talk:  

-***-

When the Lord created men and placed them on earth, he gave “them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.” (D&C 20:19.)

-***-

“For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.” (D&C 93:7–20.)

-***-

To worship the Lord is to put first in our lives the things of his kingdom, to live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, to center our whole hearts upon Christ and that salvation which comes because of him.

It is to walk in the light as he is in the light, to do the things that he wants done, to do what he would do under similar circumstances, to be as he is.

-***-

As Jesus Christ has showed us, worshipping the Father doesn't end when we become Gods ourselves.  Jesus Christ continues to worship His Father even as He is a personage in the Godhead Himself.  Worshipping the Father - putting first in our lives the things of his kingdom, to live by every word that proceedeth forth from the Father's mouth, is an eternal worship... as we receive grace upon grace upon grace forever and ever and ever eternal.

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23 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Because no one has properly identified the first heavenly being as Jesus and the second as His son.

<clip image>

:o You did that on purpose!  Stirring the pot.  Fitting.

Here's what I think.

Quote

(after describing the physical appearance of the first personage)

...another personage soon appeard (sic) like unto the first...

-- Joseph Smith's Journal 1835; p 24

and

Quote

I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision and saw two glorious personages who EXACTLY resembled each other in features, and likeness...

 -- Wentworth letter. (emphasis added). CH 1 Mar 1842

I'd think it would be a stretch to think that a mother "exactly resembled" her son.

Edited by Mores

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On 9/3/2019 at 9:34 AM, estradling75 said:

I think you are being a bit deceitful (if only to yourself)  You say you want deeper stuff but you show a profound lack of understanding the basics..  What you discard as "youthful"  we would call basic.  Its like how one needs to learn how to add, subtract, multiply and divide before moving on to algebra.  You want to talk about algebra but your questions show you do not know how to add.  We can answer your questions but you will not understand them... and then you will blame us.. all because you lack the basics that you "have no use for"

I perfectly understand what the basics are.  But, for various reasons, I happen to disagree with the basics.  Maybe I am a doubting Thomas, or maybe my reasons are rationally legitimate.  

If you are a person who does not doubt, then, I think, this conversation is not for you.  My hope is that God has brought me here to meet some good Christian brethren, who had themselves doubted, but have worked things out in their mind... and came to an understanding.

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On 9/3/2019 at 9:54 AM, Traveler said:

May I suggest two possibilities [...]

Perhaps both possibilities are true.  

On 9/3/2019 at 9:54 AM, Traveler said:

Perhaps you would like to elaborate more (provide examples) of what you are attempting to accomplish?

After more than a decade of committing my faith to various religions, even becoming a true believer at times, I have finally reached the end of my journey and embraced Christianity.  Now the question I have is, which community should I support and join?  After much prayer and studying I am convinced that the LDS Church is that very one; by the affirmation of the Holy Ghost.  However, there are so many things that trouble me about the Church, its teachings and culture, that I am reluctant to participate; to bring my family into the fold.  I do not want my children to be disparaged, or discouraged in any way, or even denied a chance at missionary work, simply because they believe differently; nor do I want my grandchildren to hold certain beliefs, ones which I expect would cause them harm, down the line.  Moreover, I am dismayed at the thought of participating in one community all the while yearning to be among another.  So my hope was that some brethren, here, could encourage and edify me, even comfort me as to the issues which I find to be troubling.  

I happen to believe many of the critics’ conclusions about Joseph Smith and the early history of the Church, insofar as those conclusions are based on good judgement and supported by historical records (contemporary journals; personal letters; publications; et cetera).  Nevertheless the critics’ conclusions, while arguably true, do not determine whether the Church is true:  No matter how wayward Israel became, they never ceased being the target of God’s affections.  And that is how I see the Church — As a church among the “seven” of Christ’s churches; that one among them which is pleasing to God, being the target of God’s warmest affections.  Therefore—wayward or not—a nation was formed and a promise was made; and God intends to keep his promise. 

On 9/3/2019 at 9:37 AM, Traveler said:

I would think that your question is [...]

I agree with you for the most part.  However, I have a very hard time believing that our Father has a body.  Sure, I agree that love is the one thing which we hope to obtain, through our worship.  But I do not see how the image—that of the sons of the most high God, reigning over the New Creation—is less efficacious than the image of, the Gods eternally increasing.  If committing belief in the first image has been enough to justify me, and perhaps even sanctify me, and send me down a path of love in the way of Christ, then what do I need the second image for?  

Has our understanding of true religion not advanced according to the doctrines which are the most efficacious when it comes to acquiring a loving disposition? 

How does the image of “the Gods eternally increasing” sanctify me and further transform my disposition?

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

I perfectly understand what the basics are.  But, for various reasons, I happen to disagree with the basics.  Maybe I am a doubting Thomas, or maybe my reasons are rationally legitimate.  

If you are a person who does not doubt, then, I think, this conversation is not for you.  My hope is that God has brought me here to meet some good Christian brethren, who had themselves doubted, but have worked things out in their mind... and came to an understanding.

I have doubted and I have walked through the doubts because of the basics...  Only your arrogance would presume that someone who is faithful must not have been challenged.

And given that you still have not answered the question that you said you were working on over 36 hours ago after I called you out... well I think my assumptions about your real intent are solid.

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On 9/3/2019 at 8:32 AM, Fether said:

I am a child of the womb that is the Creation; which is the womb of our Father.  Why must I forsake this notion?  I am already believing that I am quite literally the child of our Father in heaven.  

So I have to ask — How would the belief, that our Father has a body of flesh and bone, more efficaciously propel me towards acquiring a perfect, loving disposition?

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On 8/27/2019 at 2:24 PM, estradling75 said:

I understand that the "universal, catholic/ orthodox understanding" is the Trinitarian Creedal understanding of God. 

Yes.

On 8/27/2019 at 2:24 PM, estradling75 said:

A God without Parts or Passions.

Without parts.

Passions, as in, tugs of emotion?  

The Holy Ghost is tugging on the heart of God the Father, which has produced the world and God the Son.  “In the beginning was the Word....”

I would say that God has passion.

On 8/27/2019 at 2:24 PM, estradling75 said:

A God with three 'personalities' but one 'substance'  

There is one thing, which has three faces.

On 8/27/2019 at 2:24 PM, estradling75 said:

A substance that uniquely and distinctly God and is found no were else.  Not in angels, not in humans, not in animals, not in anything anywhere but God.  

In a manner of speaking.

21 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I have doubted and I have walked through the doubts because of the basics...  Only your arrogance would presume that someone who is faithful must not have been challenged.

And given that you still have not answered the question that you said you were working on over 36 hours ago after I called you out... well I think my assumptions about your real intent are solid.

I am not saying the faithful have not doubted.  Not at all.  But I do recognize there is a need that certain people have, to obtain the truth that religions can provide. There is the doubt of the one who desperately needs the truth, and the doubt of the one who does NOT need the truth.  I happen to appreciate the first kind of doubt.  That is all.

I would not be quick to judge.  Things are more complicated than they appear :

Romans 7

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do, I know not. For what I would do, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law, that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

My hope is that God has brought me here to meet some good Christian brethren, who had themselves doubted, but have worked things out in their mind... and came to an understanding.

Perhaps God has done exactly that, Seek. And perhaps those good Christian brethren who had themselves doubted and have come to an understanding are in fact sharing that understanding with you: That you need to seek to understand the doctrine and cling to it, then frame your viewpoint from that understanding, rather than try to mold your viewpoint of scripture based on your preconceived understanding. First learn humbly, then analyze and seek to understand. If you already have built your house before you consult the architectural diagrams, you'll never reconcile them.

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50 minutes ago, Seek said:

So I have to ask — How would the belief, that our Father has a body of flesh and bone, more efficaciously propel me towards acquiring a perfect, loving disposition?

Truth is an understanding of things as they really are, as they really were, and as they really will be. And the truth will set you free. That's how.

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

So I have to ask — How would the belief, that our Father has a body of flesh and bone, more efficaciously propel me towards acquiring a perfect, loving disposition?

Because it is true.

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2 hours ago, Seek said:

Yes.

Without parts.

Passions, as in, tugs of emotion?  

The Holy Ghost is tugging on the heart of God the Father, which has produced the world and God the Son.  “In the beginning was the Word....”

I would say that God has passion.

There is one thing, which has three faces.

In a manner of speaking.

So yes you are talking about basic Creedal Christianity.  Compared to what Joseph Smith taught about God's nature the creeds makes God sound like a Lovecraftain horror.  An Alien and Other God.  We have as much in common with the creedal God as the program I just wrote today has in common with me.  If my program started calling me Daddy I'd kill it with fire.  Its going to do exactly want I want it to do and its own desires and wants simply do not exist.  If it does not work I will tear it apart and rebuild it until it does.. I do not care about it at all beyond it doing exactly what I want it do. 

But I am also a Father. I created kids.  They have some profound physical and mental and emotional differences from me.  But I know what they can become and I want them to, and I am willing to help them too.

Thus when Joseph Smith revealed that "The Father has a body as tangible as man."  And that "As man is God once was.  As God is man might become"  He destroyed the Alieness and Otherness that the Creeds established.  God is not Alien or Other,  his is more advanced, more mature, more intelligent.  Those are huge differences, but with his help they are not eternal ones. Thus the difference is stark... Is God the programmer or is God a parent?  Joseph Smith made God very explicitly the latter which makes the Creeds by comparison more of the former.

And then you asked

3 hours ago, Seek said:

So I have to ask — How would the belief, that our Father has a body of flesh and bone, more efficaciously propel me towards acquiring a perfect, loving disposition?

If you believe God is the embodiment of perfect, loving disposition, and that God is an Alien Other that you can never be like... then the logical conclusion is a perfect, loving disposition is not something you can get. So why try?

Where as if you believe that God is the embodiment of perfect, loving disposition, and that God is and Advanced Perfected Human, then no matter how far away the goal might seem we know it is attainable.  And he will help with his perfect understanding of what it is and were we are. This is how it helps.

 

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15 hours ago, Seek said:

Perhaps both possibilities are true.  

After more than a decade of committing my faith to various religions, even becoming a true believer at times, I have finally reached the end of my journey and embraced Christianity.  Now the question I have is, which community should I support and join?  After much prayer and studying I am convinced that the LDS Church is that very one; by the affirmation of the Holy Ghost.  However, there are so many things that trouble me about the Church, its teachings and culture, that I am reluctant to participate; to bring my family into the fold.  I do not want my children to be disparaged, or discouraged in any way, or even denied a chance at missionary work, simply because they believe differently; nor do I want my grandchildren to hold certain beliefs, ones which I expect would cause them harm, down the line.  Moreover, I am dismayed at the thought of participating in one community all the while yearning to be among another.  So my hope was that some brethren, here, could encourage and edify me, even comfort me as to the issues which I find to be troubling.  

I happen to believe many of the critics’ conclusions about Joseph Smith and the early history of the Church, insofar as those conclusions are based on good judgement and supported by historical records (contemporary journals; personal letters; publications; et cetera).  Nevertheless the critics’ conclusions, while arguably true, do not determine whether the Church is true:  No matter how wayward Israel became, they never ceased being the target of God’s affections.  And that is how I see the Church — As a church among the “seven” of Christ’s churches; that one among them which is pleasing to God, being the target of God’s warmest affections.  Therefore—wayward or not—a nation was formed and a promise was made; and God intends to keep his promise. 

I agree with you for the most part.  However, I have a very hard time believing that our Father has a body.  Sure, I agree that love is the one thing which we hope to obtain, through our worship.  But I do not see how the image—that of the sons of the most high God, reigning over the New Creation—is less efficacious than the image of, the Gods eternally increasing.  If committing belief in the first image has been enough to justify me, and perhaps even sanctify me, and send me down a path of love in the way of Christ, then what do I need the second image for?  

Has our understanding of true religion not advanced according to the doctrines which are the most efficacious when it comes to acquiring a loving disposition? 

How does the image of “the Gods eternally increasing” sanctify me and further transform my disposition?

As a scientist I have often wondered if what we are taught of spirit in a religious sense is somewhat dimensional as also what we understand as physical or flesh.  That we mortals, here on earth, are experiencing for a period a interdimensional intersection of spiritual dimension with this universe dimensional space-time.  If such was the case - to any degree - then it would be necessary for G-d, in order to be G-d, to not be limited only to the spiritual dimensions.  As a physicist I am well aware that our understanding of the laws and principles that govern our space-time is insufficient and can only account for 5% of what we know of our universe.  In short - I suggest that you do not sell out so quickly of that which is physical when we know so very little of it.

I addressed, in part, the means by which a all powerful G-d could "increase".   I am not sure if you grasp the concept of becoming "one" with G-d.  In the scriptural account of creation we are told through revelation that man is created in the "image" and "likeness" of G-d.  The ancient Hebrew from which this is translated into English indicates that man is a "model" or "replica" of G-d.  This would mean that creation has a purpose.  A purpose that is not just a game played by G-d nor a meaningless construction of stuff without actual value.  But that G-d is in the process of replication. 

If you understand much of fractals as defined in Chaos theory as an explanation of complex systems - one can realize that microstructure is replicated in the macro structure.   And indeed we see a commonality of replication in quantum physics and the isotropic nature of the universe.  And the same exists in all living things.  That the very structure of the most simple protozoa is replicated again and again in all organisms regardless of their complexity - at least all that we know of.  Why then assume that the image and likeness of the creator (Father and Mother) are so different?

 

The Traveler

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14 hours ago, estradling75 said:

So yes you are talking about basic Creedal Christianity.  Compared to what Joseph Smith taught about God's nature the creeds makes God sound like a Lovecraftain horror.

Trinitarianism asserts that God has three faces by which a person may recognize him; three personas.  And so, we can (1) peer into the heavens, at the mysterious Lord, controlling the cosmos; all the while (2) standing in the very presence of Christ; all the while (3) feeling a burning in the heart —of love—that is the Lord’s Spirit.  Three impressions in a single moment — three personas (masks), all of whom share a single nature:  Love.  The persona that is the Father impresses upon the mind; the persona that is the Son impresses upon the body; and the persona that is the Spirit impresses upon the soul.  Each of these impressions is unique, but, together, they are being applied on us with one, downward press.

 

14 hours ago, estradling75 said:

If you believe God is the embodiment of perfect, loving disposition, and that God is an Alien Other that you can never be like... then the logical conclusion is a perfect, loving disposition is not something you can get. So why try?

From a Trinitarian perspective, one should not desire to become a mysterious lord, controlling a cosmos; nor should one desire to become a messiah.  One should only desire to become a holy soul.  

We become like the Father in the sense that, our heart comes to burn with the same fire and spirit as his own.  We become like the Father in the ways that matter... here, in this life.

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32 minutes ago, Seek said:

From a Trinitarian perspective, one should not desire to become a mysterious lord, controlling a cosmos; nor should one desire to become a messiah.  One should only desire to become a holy soul.  

We become like the Father in the sense that, our heart comes to burn with the same fire and spirit as his own.  We become like the Father in the ways that matter... here, in this life.

Who would you say was the better father?

The wise and powerful king that wanted his children to become wise and powerful kings and rulers too? Or the King that wanted his children to just behave themselves and obey his commands?

I'm not comparing God's but rather challenging the traditional concepts of God. and I am NOT comparing the desires of the children, I'm comparing the desires of the father. Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful being, who loves us infinitely, want to cap our progression? What would you say to your son if he said "I want to be as smart as you someday dad!"? would you say "No, you can't be as good as me. Instead, just obey me." or would you help and assist him/her to reach their desired dream of being as great as their father?

This argument right here makes it pretty clear to me the nature of our father in heaven and our relation to him. Either God want's us to experience the godly life he does, or he is not all-powerful/knowing/loving.

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

Trinitarianism asserts that God has three faces by which a person may recognize him; three personas.  And so, we can (1) peer into the heavens, at the mysterious Lord, controlling the cosmos; all the while (2) standing in the very presence of Christ; all the while (3) feeling a burning in the heart —of love—that is the Lord’s Spirit.  Three impressions in a single moment — three personas (masks), all of whom share a single nature:  Love.  The persona that is the Father impresses upon the mind; the persona that is the Son impresses upon the body; and the persona that is the Spirit impresses upon the soul.  Each of these impressions is unique, but, together, they are being applied on us with one, downward press.

 

From a Trinitarian perspective, one should not desire to become a mysterious lord, controlling a cosmos; nor should one desire to become a messiah.  One should only desire to become a holy soul.  

We become like the Father in the sense that, our heart comes to burn with the same fire and spirit as his own.  We become like the Father in the ways that matter... here, in this life.

If you wish to believe in Trinitarianism that is your right...  But lets remember the context of this conversion.  Joseph Smith was not Trinitarian.  His revelations where not Trinitarian, yet you are trying to cram them into that box and failing to make even the most basic of progress.  Because they are not compatible.  This is a basic and fundamental understanding that you are being obtuse to.

 

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21 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If you wish to believe in Trinitarianism that is your right...  But lets remember the context of this conversion.  Joseph Smith was not Trinitarian.  His revelations where not Trinitarian, yet you are trying to cram them into that box and failing to make even the most basic of progress.  Because they are not compatible.  This is a basic and fundamental understanding that you are being obtuse to.

I totally agree.  Joseph Smith was not a Trinitarian.  I think you misunderstand my approach.  

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1 minute ago, Seek said:

I totally agree.  Joseph Smith was not a Trinitarian.  I think you misunderstand my approach.  

I think your approach is full of fail....  It does not mean I misunderstand it.

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19 hours ago, Vort said:

Perhaps God has done exactly that, Seek. And perhaps those good Christian brethren who had themselves doubted and have come to an understanding are in fact sharing that understanding with you: That you need to seek to understand the doctrine and cling to it, then frame your viewpoint from that understanding, rather than try to mold your viewpoint of scripture based on your preconceived understanding. First learn humbly, then analyze and seek to understand. If you already have built your house before you consult the architectural diagrams, you'll never reconcile them.

I was investigating a certain religion some years ago.  The leader of the religion, who is believed to be morally perfect by his subjects, was allegedly having an extramarital affair.  Now the evidence was quite strong in my opinion, that he was having an affair.  But the believers that I spoke with refused to even consider the idea.  How can a morally perfect man commit adultery?  Impossible.  Obviously the leader is being falsely accused. 

You see? 

I do not start with a conclusion and then work my way backwards, towards an hypothesis.  I start with an hypothesis and work my way forwards, to a conclusion.

19 hours ago, Vort said:

Truth is an understanding of things as they really are, as they really were, and as they really will be. And the truth will set you free. That's how.

So, in a manner of speaking, I must believe that the leader of the aforementioned religion is morally perfect... because that has been asserted to be truth?

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Who would you say was the better father?

The wise and powerful king that wanted his children to become wise and powerful kings and rulers too.

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful being, who loves us infinitely, want to cap our progression?

I would say that God wants your own heart to burn with love just as much as his heart does.  He wants you to progress in that way... in spirit.

2 hours ago, Fether said:

What would you say to your son if he said "I want to be as smart as you someday dad!"? would you say "No, you can't be as good as me. Instead, just obey me." or would you help and assist him/her to reach their desired dream of being as great as their father?

Sure, I would.  But if my son were to tell me that he wanted to be just like me some day, saying, "One day I am going to marry mommy, like you did," I would tell him that he can only ever be like me... in spirit.

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

The wise and powerful king that wanted his children to become wise and powerful kings and rulers too.

I would say that God wants your own heart to burn with love just as much as his heart does.  He wants you to progress in that way... in spirit.

Sure, I would.  But if my son were to tell me that he wanted to be just like me some day, saying, "One day I am going to marry mommy, like you did," I would tell him that he can only ever be like me... in spirit.

You're missing the point here @Seek.  

The point here is a Bird telling a Fish to be just like him soaring up to the skies.  The Fish may do all he can to feel the soaring sensation but he's a Fish.  He'll never get there.  God is not a Bird to our Fish.  God is a Bird to our baby Bird.... we are going to learn to flap our wings properly because one day, we will not just learn about soaring, or feel like soaring in our fish scales... we WILL SOAR like the Birds we are.

Edited by anatess2

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

I was investigating a certain religion some years ago.  The leader of the religion, who is believed to be morally perfect by his subjects, was allegedly having an extramarital affair.  Now the evidence was quite strong in my opinion, that he was having an affair.  But the believers that I spoke with refused to even consider the idea.  How can a morally perfect man commit adultery?  Impossible.  Obviously the leader is being falsely accused. 

You see? 

I do not start with a conclusion and then work my way backwards, towards an hypothesis.  I start with an hypothesis and work my way forwards, to a conclusion.

In this case, you are starting with the Conclusion that the 2nd personage is Heavenly Mother.  That's what we're trying to tell you.

 

1 hour ago, Seek said:

So, in a manner of speaking, I must believe that the leader of the aforementioned religion is morally perfect... because that has been asserted to be truth?

No.  The leader of a religion is human and fallible and may not have all Truth.  What you must believe is the Holy Ghost who is the testifier and confirmer of truth.  So, our ultimate objective is not to learn of this religious leader.  Our ultimate objective is to learn of the Holy Ghost so that we may know when the Holy Ghost is testifying and confirming the truth of what the religious leader is speaking of.

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1 hour ago, Seek said:

The wise and powerful king that wanted his children to become wise and powerful kings and rulers too.

I would say that God wants your own heart to burn with love just as much as his heart does.  He wants you to progress in that way... in spirit.

Sure, I would.  But if my son were to tell me that he wanted to be just like me some day, saying, "One day I am going to marry mommy, like you did," I would tell him that he can only ever be like me... in spirit.

Like was said above, we are LITERAL children of our Heavenly Father. We aren't beta gods, we aren't some alien creation of a supreme being. We are as much children of God as a tadpole is a child of a frog. 

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2 hours ago, Seek said:

You see?

Nope.

2 hours ago, Seek said:

I do not start with a conclusion and then work my way backwards, towards an hypothesis.  I start with an hypothesis and work my way forwards, to a conclusion.

What do you mean? This is exactly what you have done. You have accepted a Trinitarian view of God and then tried to shoehorn the gospel as taught by the Restored Church into that view.

2 hours ago, Seek said:
21 hours ago, Vort said:

Truth is an understanding of things as they really are, as they really were, and as they really will be. And the truth will set you free. That's how.

So, in a manner of speaking, I must believe that the leader of the aforementioned religion is morally perfect... because that has been asserted to be truth?

Your statement is non sequitur. Far more concerning is that you seem not to care to learn what others have to teach, but merely to continue asserting your beliefs and trying to force a harmony between those false preconceptions and the revealed truths of God.

It won't work, Seek. If you truly are a humble seeker, drop the preconceptions and really open your heart. If you can't do that, you should at least drop the pretense of being open-minded.

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