The Plan of Salvation and dependence


askandanswer
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Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - got a brief mention in our Sunday School class today and it got me thinking. This verse reminded me of our absolute dependence on the atonement. Under the current terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation, because we have all sinned, in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God, we are all absolutely dependent on the atonement and God’s mercy. This led to a few questions in my mind:

In order for the Plan of Salvation to accomplish its intended purposes, does it, in its current form, lead to, or create, or rely upon, a situation of dependence?

Is this better or worse than a plan that leads to a situation of independence?

Why is a Plan that creates, or results in, or relies upon a condition of dependence better than a plan which leads to independence?

If an all-powerful God could have created a plan which did not involve creating conditions of dependency – and I don’t think such a task would be beyond His abilities - why might He have created a plan that does involve setting up a condition of dependency? What did He have in mind in setting things up this way, why is He seemingly making the creation of a dependent condition so important in this Plan of Salvation, and might there be anything else that the creation of this condition of dependence is meant to assist in the achievement of, post-exaltation?

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We were dependent upon Heavenly Father during the pre-mortal existence. And we are dependent upon the grace of God throughout this mortal probation.  

Much like a child is dependent upon his parents during infancy and adolescence.

But our doctrine teaches us, that those who follow the plan of exaltation and enter into the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will have all that God has.  Thus gaining their independence.  All those who do not obtain exaltation will still be dependent upon the Lord.

And although we may gain our independence, we will always honor our Father and recognize that we are forever indebted to Him for our blessings and knowledge.  Mosiah 2:21-24

Eventually, we in-turn may become as He is, thus the plan will continue.  But the next time thru those who have earned their exaltation will serve as leaders and not followers.

We are now as lambs (blemished) but the hope is that we will become as shepherds.

If there was a better plan I’m sure the Gods would have implemented it (D&C 121:28-32).  But it appears that this plan is the one that works best.

“I see the truth of it.” -  Paul Muad’Dib Atreides

Abraham 3:24-26 vs Moses 4:1-3

 

And from today’s Sunday School Come follow me lesson -

Elder Dallin H. Oaks related the following parable:
“A wealthy father knew that if he were to bestow his wealth upon a child who had not yet developed the needed wisdom and stature, the inheritance would probably be wasted. The father said to his child:
“‘All that I have I desire to give you —not only my wealth, but also my position and standing among men. That which I have I can easily give you, but that which I am you must obtain for yourself. You will qualify for your inheritance by learning what I have learned and by living as I have lived. I will give you the laws and principles by which I have acquired my wisdom and stature. Follow my example, mastering as I have mastered, and you will become as I am, and all that I have will be yours’” (“The Challenge to Become,” Ensign, Nov. 2000, 32).

Edited by mikbone
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7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - got a brief mention in our Sunday School class today and it got me thinking. This verse reminded me of our absolute dependence on the atonement. Under the current terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation, because we have all sinned, in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God, we are all absolutely dependent on the atonement and God’s mercy. This led to a few questions in my mind:

In order for the Plan of Salvation to accomplish its intended purposes, does it, in its current form, lead to, or create, or rely upon, a situation of dependence?

Is this better or worse than a plan that leads to a situation of independence?

Why is a Plan that creates, or results in, or relies upon a condition of dependence better than a plan which leads to independence?

If an all-powerful God could have created a plan which did not involve creating conditions of dependency – and I don’t think such a task would be beyond His abilities - why might He have created a plan that does involve setting up a condition of dependency? What did He have in mind in setting things up this way, why is He seemingly making the creation of a dependent condition so important in this Plan of Salvation, and might there be anything else that the creation of this condition of dependence is meant to assist in the achievement of, post-exaltation?

Salvation is free. Everyone is saved and yes, we are all dependent on Christ for that salvation.

However, the purpose of life is not merely to be saved, but to be exalted. Exaltation is to become like God in every sense. It requires a duel effort. Christ’s saving grace coupled with our agency and desire to be like him. 

Edited by Fether
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12 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - got a brief mention in our Sunday School class today and it got me thinking. This verse reminded me of our absolute dependence on the atonement. Under the current terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation, because we have all sinned, in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God, we are all absolutely dependent on the atonement and God’s mercy. This led to a few questions in my mind:

In order for the Plan of Salvation to accomplish its intended purposes, does it, in its current form, lead to, or create, or rely upon, a situation of dependence?

Is this better or worse than a plan that leads to a situation of independence?

Why is a Plan that creates, or results in, or relies upon a condition of dependence better than a plan which leads to independence?

If an all-powerful God could have created a plan which did not involve creating conditions of dependency – and I don’t think such a task would be beyond His abilities - why might He have created a plan that does involve setting up a condition of dependency? What did He have in mind in setting things up this way, why is He seemingly making the creation of a dependent condition so important in this Plan of Salvation, and might there be anything else that the creation of this condition of dependence is meant to assist in the achievement of, post-exaltation?

He didn't set it up just one way. Dependence and independence are unavoidable developmental stages of progress where charitable unity (Zion--a group being one heart and one mind, or interdependence) is the aim. The All-Powerful God created an All-Encompassing Plan which integrates all of these, and more, not just one or the other or one over the other.

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On 8/18/2019 at 2:33 AM, askandanswer said:

Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - got a brief mention in our Sunday School class today and it got me thinking. This verse reminded me of our absolute dependence on the atonement. Under the current terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation, because we have all sinned, in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God, we are all absolutely dependent on the atonement and God’s mercy. This led to a few questions in my mind:

In order for the Plan of Salvation to accomplish its intended purposes, does it, in its current form, lead to, or create, or rely upon, a situation of dependence?

Is this better or worse than a plan that leads to a situation of independence?

Why is a Plan that creates, or results in, or relies upon a condition of dependence better than a plan which leads to independence?

If an all-powerful God could have created a plan which did not involve creating conditions of dependency – and I don’t think such a task would be beyond His abilities - why might He have created a plan that does involve setting up a condition of dependency? What did He have in mind in setting things up this way, why is He seemingly making the creation of a dependent condition so important in this Plan of Salvation, and might there be anything else that the creation of this condition of dependence is meant to assist in the achievement of, post-exaltation?

I am not sure that the terms dependent and independent are being spoken of in the correct context.  Dependence is and of necessity something external while independence is and of necessity something internal.   Two things - we are given revelation to understand that the purpose of the plan of salvation is that we can become independent.  We also know that Satan wants to prevent independence.

And so there exist a most strange paradox.  The only way to become independent is to depend on G-d.  Part of independence is to be inseparably connected with the spirit body to the physical body.  Thus Satan is dependent on G-d and therefore must abide by the law of G-d the rules over him (Satan).  The only way to become independent through the law is to be "justified" by the law.  So this is where sin comes in; because by sin we are condemned by the law rather than justified.   Only by overcoming sin are we justified by the law - because sin is a transgression of the law.  By overcoming the law the law becomes our servant but until we overcome the law we are subservient to the law. 

One other point - because we are fallen through transgression of the law (weather by ignorance or if beguiled) we are helpless and dependent on our proctor of the law to redeem our fallen condition under the law.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/18/2019 at 4:33 AM, askandanswer said:

and I don’t think such a task would be beyond His abilities

For God to be God, He needs be Just AND Merciful.  If He is not Just, He ceases to be God.  If He is not Merciful, He ceases to be God.  The Atonement is the condition by which God remains both Just and Merciful.  This has nothing to do with dependence but more to do with the plain fact that it is impossible for us to save ourselves.

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On 8/18/2019 at 2:33 AM, askandanswer said:

Romans 3:23 – For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God - got a brief mention in our Sunday School class today and it got me thinking. This verse reminded me of our absolute dependence on the atonement. Under the current terms and conditions of the Plan of Salvation, because we have all sinned, in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God, we are all absolutely dependent on the atonement and God’s mercy. This led to a few questions in my mind:

In order for the Plan of Salvation to accomplish its intended purposes, does it, in its current form, lead to, or create, or rely upon, a situation of dependence?

Is this better or worse than a plan that leads to a situation of independence?

Why is a Plan that creates, or results in, or relies upon a condition of dependence better than a plan which leads to independence?

If an all-powerful God could have created a plan which did not involve creating conditions of dependency – and I don’t think such a task would be beyond His abilities - why might He have created a plan that does involve setting up a condition of dependency? What did He have in mind in setting things up this way, why is He seemingly making the creation of a dependent condition so important in this Plan of Salvation, and might there be anything else that the creation of this condition of dependence is meant to assist in the achievement of, post-exaltation?

Its not that He created a plan that way or could He do it another way, that is just the way it is. It is one of those facts that eternal glory depends on others.  Gods work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  His glory depends on us.  If we want to have what he has then we must learn to live that way in which we are love God (God's lifestyle, way of doing things etc) with all our heart and mind and we love our neighbor as our self.  These are commandments that depend on others.  That is the heart of our gospel.  Christ could not be Christ without suffering for our sins.  He could not be a Savior if he did't save.  

Satan wanted to be independent.  He didn't want to share glory, or give glory to anyone.  Our glory can be eternal if we share glory for another's accomplishments.  That can only happen, though, if we love others as our self, perfectly.   That is a truth that God cannot change. 

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2 hours ago, Fifthziff said:

Its not that He created a plan that way or could He do it another way, that is just the way it is. It is one of those facts that eternal glory depends on others.  Gods work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  His glory depends on us.  If we want to have what he has then we must learn to live that way in which we are love God (God's lifestyle, way of doing things etc) with all our heart and mind and we love our neighbor as our self.  These are commandments that depend on others.  That is the heart of our gospel.  Christ could not be Christ without suffering for our sins.  He could not be a Savior if he did't save.  

Satan wanted to be independent.  He didn't want to share glory, or give glory to anyone.  Our glory can be eternal if we share glory for another's accomplishments.  That can only happen, though, if we love others as our self, perfectly.   That is a truth that God cannot change. 

As an expert in industrial automation (artificial) intelligence - there are two classical ways that artificial intelligence (automation) operates in a complex industrial model.  The first is what is termed as the overseeing centralized intelligent model.  In this model the primary higher intelligence oversees the entire complex model and commands the lower (often broken down into simplistic) operations.  The lower level simplistic operations only know their particular operation and are controlled by communicating with the centralized primary intelligent overseeing source.  This model is the foundation of the assembly line operation and means that there was not much intelligence needed on the assembly line much beyond following specific simplistic instructions.  I believe this is the primary model that many see in the religious model as the relationship  between G-d and man.  G-d being the overseeing centralized superior intelligence and man being simplistic inferior intelligence operating on simple command via communication with G-d.

The second classical model is called the distributed intelligence model.  In this model the communications with the centralized overseeing model is minimized.  The concept is to distribute the decision making to that level of operation where the data is most available for making the decision or to the closests possible level to make the decision.  This model still requires a centralized overseeing intelligent (decision making) process that maintains oversight of the entire operation.  The main difference is that the most possible decisions possible are made at the lower levels.  In the previous model all decisions are made at the centralized level. 

There are strong advantages and disadvantages for each model - I will leave the advantages and disadvantages to be determined by the readers.  I personal came to prefer the distributed model because I saw that as more closely resembling the divine model expressed in my understanding of the Plan of Salvation.   But there is a new model of artificial industrial intelligence.  It is called "The Hive Mind".

I have shared the Hive Mind intelligent model before but I will share again.  In the Hive Mind there are unlimited intelligent nodes and each node is consider to be equal.  The nodes exist on a network and all communicate with each other through the network.  Via the network all nodes operate as one single entity.  Questions derived and any node are broadcast on the network as are any suggested responses are also broadcasts on the network.  As the reader may surmise - this is a lot like the internet.  Every intelligence with access to a node becomes very intelligent through the network.  In short - this model outperforms the two classic models in every way possible.  I am sure that many may think they see possible problems with this model but the truth is the problem is not diminished intelligence but design problems of the network.

I currently believe that G-d in the implementation of the Hive Mind.  Some religionists resits this notion saying we will never be equal to G-d.  But that is a gross misunderstanding of scripture and being "ONE" with G-d.  If we are not equal we are not one!  The plan of salvation is the essence of becoming one with G-d as Celestial nodes on the divine network.  I believe it is Satan that is trying to establish the first model with him as the overseeing intelligence.  And that he is smart enough to realize that the final model with outperform his model at ever possible consideration.  He will never be able to compete - ever.  So his effort is to destroy the network that connects independent intelligences and make them dependent on him.

Anyway some thoughts.

 

The Traveler

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