Future Developments in New Emphasis in Church's Name


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3 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I really think BYU football will go away soon. The church may just move it over to a private corporation, in fact we could see this happen for the university too.

BYU is a fantastic foot hold the church has in the secular world. I personally think it would be a terrible move to separate the church from BYU.

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4 hours ago, Vort said:

I don't really care too much about football, but I would be heartbroken if the Church sold off or moved administration of BYU to a private corporate body.

I am sure you are not alone in that. I attended BYU Idaho and found it a better experience than the Provo campus would have been. I remember when they announced the move to intramural sports and there were a lot of heartbroken people.

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

BYU is a fantastic foot hold the church has in the secular world. I personally think it would be a terrible move to separate the church from BYU.

Perhaps a move away from the "secular world" is what we need to build up Zion. I will leave it to the Prophet to make these decisions, but I know there is a need to get back on the track of Zion and not Babylon.

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9 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
2 hours ago, Fether said:

BYU is a fantastic foot hold the church has in the secular world. I personally think it would be a terrible move to separate the church from BYU.

Perhaps a move away from the "secular world" is what we need to build up Zion. I will leave it to the Prophet to make these decisions, but I know there is a need to get back on the track of Zion and not Babylon.

I certainly do not disagree. I am in no rush to see BYU football go away, and as I said before, I would be heartbroken to see BYU fall under the auspices of a secular committee. But I will heartily support the brethren in their decisions to bring about Zion, even if that means giving up one of the truly sacred places of my lifetime (namely, BYU). I truly hope I put nothing before God and the work of bringing about Zion, not even my own family, and certainly not my alma mater.

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Just now, Vort said:

I certainly do not disagree. I am in no rush to see BYU football go away, and as I said before, I would be heartbroken to see BYU fall under the auspices of a secular committee. But I will heartily support the brethren in their decisions to bring about Zion, even if that means giving up one of the truly sacred places of my lifetime (namely, BYU). I truly hope I put nothing before God and the work of bringing about Zion, not even my own family, and certainly not my alma mater.

Amen. 

Quote

 

In February 1847 Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and said: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."

Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

 

Quote

In February 1847 Joseph Smith appeared to Brigham Young in a dream and said: "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."

Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah; spelling, punctuation, and capitalization modernized.

 

I wish I could "Like" this multiple times.

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I really have no desire one way or the other regarding football, but I read this today and found it interesting. People associate BYU with the church, and that makes me think they will keep it, all other sports, and the school under the umbrella of the church.

https://www.vanquishthefoe.com/2019/9/4/20848773/espn-bomani-jones-byu-football-mormon-church-lds

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Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Yeah, um, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sports. It's being obsessed with them that is the problem. 99% of sports fans can walk the line.  

And ironically I know of many women who can't put the phone down either because they talk to their friends, play games, etc. So it's not just a priesthood problem. But anyway. 

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I think football is becoming problematic enough (medical issues, etc) that if BYU nixed its program now, in ten or fifteen years they’d be looking pretty smart.  And frankly, my perception/experience is that football players make crappy missionaries (contra their own puffed-up opinions of themselves).  

But, I’m not holding my breath for change.  I think I’ve seen conflicting information as to whether BYU Football is profitable or not, and I imagine that will be a big part of the calculus in the short term. 

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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think football is becoming problematic enough (medical issues, etc) that if BYU nixed its program now, in ten or fifteen years they’d be looking pretty smart.  And frankly, my perception/experience is that football players make crappy missionaries (contra their own puffed-up opinions of themselves).  

But, I’m not holding my breath for change.  I think I’ve seen conflicting information as to whether BYU Football is profitable or not, and I imagine that will be a big part of the calculus in the short term. 

Why stop at football? I think we should ban all sports. Let's make life as boring and dry as possible. Anything that brings enjoyment to anyone else, ban it. First, they come for football...

The irony is that I agree with you. Football has major problems with concussions, domestic violence, etc and they need to be addressed. On the flip side, it's the most popular sport in the country and still makes billions of dollars annually so it's not going anywhere. 

Edited by MormonGator
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I have seen changes in sports - both professional and college.  But I personally believe that sports have become too influenced by money and the insane desire to win.  We can no longer have a game end in a tie.  Sportsmanship does not mean much anymore - especially to the team the loses.  I use to have season tickets to BYU football and basketball games.  The football tickets, after we built the stadium were $14 a game.  I gave up my right to tickets when the price reached $75 per game and I often found myself out of town and unable to sell the tickets and half the time when I gave them away - no one attended.

It is my opinion that in our current climate that sports are overrated.  Professional are paid so much that they should never lose.    I believe Title Nine has ruined college sports and created a generation that has distorted the meaning of fairness and competition.   

But there seems to be something else happening.  A new generation is not willing to pay for much of anything.  The massive amounts of money involved with advertising in sports is not as willing to be spent as in times passed.  It seems that the new generation would rather - or just as soon - watch sports on TV without paying for the broadcast or spending that much on the companies that advertise.  The internet is used to get better deals.  In short TV money is becoming a diminishing resource.  As money dries up conferences will not continue to have the attraction they use to have - especially to the schools that bring in the majority of revenue. 

I think that over the next 20 to 30 years money will not come so easy into the pockets of higher education - not from student tuition, not from state funds and not from alumni.   A growing number of students are discovering that their high priced education is not worth it.  When funds begin to become scarce higher education will have to make adjustments and schools that thought sports to be a source of revenue will find the opposite and Title Nine will leave no other option but to drop sports.  When that happens - I wonder if Title Nine will still guarantee that scholarships offer the same to all competing genders?  - beyond the two initially thought necessary for fairness.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Why stop at football? I think we should ban all sports. Let's make life as boring and dry as possible. Anything that brings enjoyment to anyone else, ban it. First, they come for football...

The irony is that I agree with you. Football has major problems with concussions, domestic violence, etc and they need to be addressed. On the flip side, it's the most popular sport in the country and still makes billions of dollars annually so it's not going anywhere. 

I think football is kind of a special case, due to the health effects. No beef with ongoing BYU engagement in other sports so long as a) no one’s getting seriously hurt, and b) the program isn’t an embarrassment.  

I don’t think BYU’s football program meets either criteria.  It’s only saving graces are its potential financial boon, and its purported missionary effects—and I frankly think the latter is largely a fairy tale made up by college athletes trying to re-cast a fundamentally self-aggrandizing experience as a college athlete, into an act of supposed service or altruism. (Which, again—is fine, as long as they aren’t embarrassing us or hurting people.)

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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2 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Perhaps a move away from the "secular world" is what we need to build up Zion. I will leave it to the Prophet to make these decisions, but I know there is a need to get back on the track of Zion and not Babylon.

Not really what I was saying. To me BYU is one TOOL the church has within the secular world. Not that it has a foot in Babylon. I don’t see Holding on to BYU leading to corruption in the church. But I can see the church leaving BYU would lead to a corrupt BYU.

But as Vort said above, if the church ever makes a decision, I would follow and change my opinion if I need to.

Edited by Fether
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29 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yeah, um, there is nothing wrong with enjoying sports. It's being obsessed with them that is the problem. 99% of sports fans can walk the line.

All things considered, the 1% is why the Word of Wisdom forbids alcohol.  Although I'm not a huge sports enthusiast, I think sports can be a valuable tool to develop work ethic, and can be an enjoyable family experience.  6/7 of my children are involved in a sporting activity or team on a regular basis.  That said, I don't know very many college & pro sports fans who I would think devote the right amount of time to it; however, just like how most people are bad with their money, most people are bad with their time too.

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48 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

On the flip side, it's the most popular sport in the country and still makes billions of dollars annually so it's not going anywhere. 

When I was born in the early '60s, baseball and boxing ruled the airwaves. When I was growing up in the '70s and '80s, the NBA was huge. Football won't last forever. Even if it does, that'l alone is not a convincing reason for BYU to field a team.

I consider myself a BYU football fan. I don't want it to go away. But I am much more concerned about BYU's good name than about their football team. And I am ultimately vastly more concerned about establishing Zion than either of the other two.

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Guest MormonGator
15 hours ago, person0 said:

  That said, I don't know very many college & pro sports fans who I would think devote the right amount of time to it; 

According to you they don't. Maybe they don't like or approve of your hobbies either. 

Sports are one of the few things that unite us. You'll see people of all races and backgrounds enjoying a football/baseball game together. Not many things do that anymore. 

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23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

According to you they don't. Maybe they don't like or approve of your hobbies either. 

Sports are one of the few things that unite us. You'll see people of all races and backgrounds enjoying a football/baseball game together. Not many things do that anymore. 

image.jpeg.215005962c1259883d15c8292549a230.jpeg

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, person0 said:

image.jpeg.215005962c1259883d15c8292549a230.jpeg

I spent about an hour before my tae kwan do class talking with someone about the Miami - Florida football game. This guy and I had nothing in common but football. I went to a volleyball game yesterday in Gainesville- surrounded by people of different races and cultures. We had nothing in common but volleyball. 

The Kapernick issue is just a distraction. Sports still brings us together. 

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Guest MormonGator

In fact, if you get off the internet and actually go to the games, no one talks about Kapernick at all. And, here's the cool part-virtually everyone in the stands stands up for the national anthem, than talks about the game while the game is being played. 

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Guest MormonGator

I find conversations like this fascinating because I think it reveals egos. It's not personal @person0 (I know you won't take it that way) but 9 times out of 10, when someone nags and complains about sports, music, video games, it's because they don't share the hobby, don't understand it, and therefore, they think it must be wrong in some way. Yes, there are exceptions, but for the most part, I'm dead on.

I try not to do the same thing. After all, I don't care and have no interest in cars, camping, or hunting-but I would never wag my finger and lecture someone about those hobbies. And yes, people do spend too much time on those hobbies too. So I try not to be "that guy" who associates something negative with a hobby just because I don't personally like it. 

Now don't get me wrong. Like I've said sometimes people do spend too much time on their hobbies, whatever they are, but 99% of us walk the line just fine. 

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Not counting the many, many games I attend to watch my children, I've been to 4 professional and/or college sporting events over the past 4 years.  I could enjoy a few more, but there's no time for it right now.  I enjoy the competitive nature of sports, but I don't follow it enough to even know player's names.  I already know most people ignore Kapernick, I just thought it was a funny way to respond.  I don't think there's anything inherently negative about enjoying sports as a hobby, or most other hobbies, however, I think as a society, in general, most people 'waste' too much of their time, sports or otherwise.  Personally, I place much higher value on playing and practicing sports than on watching them solely as a spectator, which is why I love getting my children involved in sports.

That said, I think different people will have different views about what is too much time.  What do you consider to be the right amount of time, vs too much?  In my mind, I tend to think of things from an opportunity cost perspective; what could that individual have been doing?  Someone who watches 2 hours of TV per day will have spent 1 waking year of their life watching TV, roughly every 8 years.  That said, I'm not sure I would call 2 hours of TV / day overkill (I know I watch that much at times), but it is still time wasted if you consider other things they could have been doing to develop their mind, body and/or talents.  Sometimes watching sports and other entertainment is a bonding experience for which there is no higher opportunity.  When I go to my kids games and cheer them on, there is nothing better I could possibly be doing with my time than showing them how much I love and support them.

In general, things that involve useful learning (personal education) score highest on my hypothetical time/value chart, where private entertainment (i.e. not as a bonding experience with friends/family) scores lowest.

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