Third Hour

Why Women Don’t Wear Pants to Church

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Just now, Grunt said:

Out of curiosity, why would you choose to not where a white shirt when wearing one is very simple, and it's been stated by men chosen by the Lord that they are preferred?

After four miserable years of Catholic school, I made an oath in the blood of a chicken that I'd never wear a tie or white shirt again. Every time I break that vow, I feel more guilt about it than if I set up an Ashley Madison account. I can't deal with that kind of guilt. 

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Out of curiosity, why would you choose to not where a white shirt when wearing one is very simple, and it's been stated by men chosen by the Lord that they are preferred?

Because I've felt zero confirmation that the Lord actually cares.

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10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Context matters.  I have been addressing the article in question and showing it clear flaws...

Show me in the linked article where she talks about it...  Show me anywhere in her writing where she acknowledged that the very people she is complaining about have exactly the same demands (other women) or worse (men).

 

So wait, your complaint is that, in an article in the Mormon Culture column -- written by a woman about her experience wearing pants to church -- she didn't talk about dress expectations for men?  And you're claiming that somehow makes her disingenuous?  

I'm not sure I follow.

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

After four miserable years of Catholic school, I made an oath in the blood of a chicken that I'd never wear a tie or white shirt again. Every time I break that vow, I feel more guilt about it than if I set up an Ashley Madison account. I can't deal with that kind of guilt. 

It's sad to see people who willfully don't follow the Prophet carrying forth such discussions to suggest other people do the same.  It's what was so confusing to me, and others.  That you publicly state you don't, as though it's fine.  Investigators don't know the difference.   It's sad, really.

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

So you don't follow the Prophet?

I know.  So crazy. 

Prophet-guy says something.
MOE prays: "God, that seems a bit odd. How do you feel about that?" 
God gives a metaphysical shoulder shrug
MOE wears a blue shirt to church
Grunt confirms that MOE is a non prophet following heathen.

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4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It's sad to see people who willfully don't follow the Prophet carrying forth such discussions to suggest other people do the same.  It's what was so confusing to me, and others.  That you publicly state you don't, as though it's fine.  Investigators don't know the difference.   It's sad, really.

If other people want to wear a white shirt, fine. I never said anything. You asked my opinion, I gave it.

You know what my experience is with investigators? They much, much, much rather talk (and listen) to someone who doesn't lecture them about what to wear when they show up to church. But I'm glad your experience worked for you. 

Edited by MormonGator

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

If other people want to wear a white shirt, fine. I never said anything. You asked my opinion, I gave it.

You know what my experience is with investigators? They much, much, much rather prefer talking to someone who doesn't lecture them about what to wear when they show up to church. But I'm glad your experience worked for you. 

I think you should make it known, when speaking on Church issues, that you aren't a practicing Latter-day Saint.  It's less confusing than when you pretend you are.  

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5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I think you should make it known, when speaking on Church issues, that you aren't a practicing Latter-day Saint.  It's less confusing than when you pretend you are.  

Sure, that's fair. But this is an experience for when I was. So...

And I've never pretended anything. I've been very open with my faith journey. So....

Edited by MormonGator

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4 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I know.  So crazy. 

Prophet-guy says something.
MOE prays: "God, that seems a bit odd. How do you feel about that?" 
God gives a metaphysical shoulder shrug
MOE wears a blue shirt to church
Grunt confirms that MOE is a non prophet following heathen.

Just so that we made it perfectly clear.  

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4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It's sad to see people who willfully don't follow the Prophet carrying forth such discussions to suggest other people do the same.  It's what was so confusing to me, and others.  That you publicly state you don't, as though it's fine.  Investigators don't know the difference.   It's sad, really.

Several years ago, we had a young woman join the Church.  I believe she was 19 or 20.  The first ward council meeting after her baptism, one of the counselors in the bishopric asked who was going to talk to her about removing her nose piercing, because she was a member of the church now. She had stopped coming to church within two weeks of her baptism. 

Believe it or not, some of our cultural dress expectations become a barrier for some investigators. When someone walks in the door and feels entirely out of place because they are the only person not wearing a white shirt/suit jacket/tie or dress, it feels isolating. From that first experience, they can start thinking, "oh, I don't belong here." or "there's no one like me here."  

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

Several years ago, we had a young woman join the Church.  I believe she was 19 or 20.  The first ward council meeting after her baptism, one of the counselors in the bishopric asked who was going to talk to her about removing her nose piercing, because she was a member of the church now. She had stopped coming to church within two weeks of her baptism. 

Believe it or not, some of our cultural dress expectations become a barrier for some investigators. When someone walks in the door and feels entirely out of place because they are the only person not wearing a white shirt/suit jacket/tie or dress, it feels isolating. From that first experience, they can start thinking, "oh, I don't belong here." or "there's no one like me here."  

Yeah.  Let's stop following the Prophet to increase our numbers.  

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9 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I know.  So crazy. 

Prophet-guy says something.
MOE prays: "God, that seems a bit odd. How do you feel about that?" 
God gives a metaphysical shoulder shrug
MOE wears a blue shirt to church
Grunt confirms that MOE is a non prophet following heathen.

 

4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Just so that we made it perfectly clear.  

Yup.  Perfectly clear.  Grunt's spiritual experiences and interpretations are the gold standard by which MOE's should be judged.  Glad we got that cleared up.

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Just now, MarginOfError said:

 

Yup.  Perfectly clear.  Grunt's spiritual experiences and interpretations are the gold standard by which MOE's should be judged.  Glad we got that cleared up.

 

Mo.  The Prophet is a higher standard.   Projecting it onto me is dishonest.  

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

 

Mo.  The Prophet is a higher standard.   Projecting it onto me is dishonest.  

So you're saying I should stop praying for confirmation with respect to anything prophets say?

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

It's sad to see people who willfully don't follow the Prophet carrying forth such discussions to suggest other people do the same.  It's what was so confusing to me, and others.  That you publicly state you don't, as though it's fine.  Investigators don't know the difference.   It's sad, really.

Grunt, I always appreciate your insights. In this case, I think there are some nuances you're missing.

I have a relative who is a grandfather, and whose oldest son is somewhat estranged from the parents. He and his wife have shed many tears over difficult events in the recent and not-so-recent past. I am privy to what's been going on, but for the purposes of this example, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, or my opinions thereof.

This relative's second son is the father of a new granddaughter, and will be naming and blessing his daughter soon. My relative will be overjoyed if his oldest son just simply shows up for the event. How he's dressed won't even be a point of concern. Whether the oldest son joins the rest of the Priesthood holders in the circle is of secondary concern. All of us, really, are just hoping for the best.

This man has other adult children, all of whom seem to have a close and loving relationship with him. Expectations are doubtless higher for them. If another son were to come to the baby blessing in a flowered Aloha t-shirt and ragged jeans, I'm pretty sure my relative would ask him about it, maybe request that he go change his clothing.

Why the unfair double standard? Easy. We love our children and want the best for them. When a child is hurting or erring or off the path, we just want him back on. But when a child is already on the path and progressing, we raise our expectations and hopes.

As a general rule, we're simply happy to see people worshiping at Church and attempting to live their covenants. Where any specific person is on the trying-to-live-his-covenants continuum is not usually visible to us, so we just try to be supportive. As a person matures in the gospel, it is expected that he will conform in his behavior to the examples set by others. That goes triple on a public discussion website, where we don't really know the people we're talking to and have no good idea what their background is or what challenges they're dealing with.

And it's always helpful to remember that we may actually be the ones who are wrong.

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Just now, MarginOfError said:

So you're saying I should stop praying for confirmation with respect to anything prophets say?

 

No, I'm saying that if the Prophet does say something you follow him.  You stated you didn't receive confirmation.   That doesn't mean the Lord hasn't spoken to you through his chosen representative.  

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5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Yeah.  Let's stop following the Prophet to increase our numbers.  

This is willfully obtuse. 

This was a cut and dry case of one of God's children disassociating herself from the church because she felt she was being judged on a nose stud. 

I know it might seem hard to comprehend, but people's feelings matter. We can talk about "true conversion" and blah blah blah.  But conversion is process.  One that she had just started. And one she terminated because she felt socially outcast when her conversion had barely taken root. 

If we had seen her instead of a nose piercing, things might have turned out differently.

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

So you're saying I should stop praying for confirmation with respect to anything prophets say?

I'm not Grunt, and as you know, normally that would make me very shy and reticent to share my opinion. But...

I think you should always pray for confirmation of what the prophets teach. But when that confirmation doesn't come, or doesn't come in the form you might expect, then I believe it's still incumbent upon you to obey what the prophets teach. The confirmation is just that, a confirmation. The obligation to obey precedes that. Remember that Adam offered sacrifice for "many days" before he ever found out why.

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17 minutes ago, Vort said:

Grunt, I always appreciate your insights. In this case, I think there are some nuances you're missing.

I have a relative who is a grandfather, and whose oldest son is somewhat estranged from the parents. He and his wife have shed many tears over difficult events in the recent and not-so-recent past. I am privy to what's been going on, but for the purposes of this example, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, or my opinions thereof.

This relative's second son is the father of a new granddaughter, and will be naming and blessing his daughter soon. My relative will be overjoyed if his oldest son just simply shows up for the event. How he's dressed won't even be a point of concern. Whether the oldest son joins the rest of the Priesthood holders in the circle is of secondary concern. All of us, really, are just hoping for the best.

This man has other adult children, all of whom seem to have a close and loving relationship with him. Expectations are doubtless higher for them. If another son were to come to the baby blessing in a flowered Aloha t-shirt and ragged jeans, I'm pretty sure my relative would ask him about it, maybe request that he go change his clothing.

Why the unfair double standard? Easy. We love our children and want the best for them. When a child is hurting or erring or off the path, we just want him back on. But when a child is already on the path and progressing, we raise our expectations and hopes.

As a general rule, we're simply happy to see people worshiping at Church and attempting to live their covenants. Where any specific person is on the trying-to-live-his-covenants continuum is not usually visible to us, so we just try to be supportive. As a person matures in the gospel, it is expected that he will conform in his behavior to the examples set by others. That goes triple on a public discussion website, where we don't really know the people we're talking to and have no good idea what their background is or what challenges they're dealing with.

And it's always helpful to remember that we may actually be the ones who are wrong.

I don't think I'm missing those nuances.  I'm not speaking of investigators, inactive members, etc.   I'm talking about regular, active Church members who think, or profess, that what they're doing is inline with the Prophet. 

 

I would prefer everyone be there, even those rebelling against the Church.   I just think we have a responsibility to point out what it is. 

Edited by Grunt

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

This is willfully obtuse. 

This was a cut and dry case of one of God's children disassociating herself from the church because she felt she was being judged on a nose stud. 

I know it might seem hard to comprehend, but people's feelings matter. We can talk about "true conversion" and blah blah blah.  But conversion is process.  One that she had just started. And one she terminated because she felt socially outcast when her conversion had barely taken root. 

If we had seen her instead of a nose piercing, things might have turned out differently.

You're response is dishonest.  You post one thing, then attribute my response to something else.  

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36 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

This isn't true.  Many of us do talk about it.  And some of us even refuse to conform. 

The day that I'm released from my present calling is the day that I start wearing jeans and a polo to church.

I would hope not. I would hope that someone who is going to partake of the sacrament would have the understanding of what that ordinance really is...what is represents; and have the desire to show reverence for it by doing something as simple as dressing their best.

If all one has to wear is jeans and a polo then that is just fine. But if one has nicer clothes and knowingly chooses to dress less respectfully time and time again, then it is likely that they are completely ignorant, or showing signs of rebellion...and that's just sad, as are your comments about the prophet. I hope you can get over whatever issues you are currently facing with the church, because your current mindset is one that has already led many away from the Lord.

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4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

No, I'm saying that if the Prophet does say something you follow him.  You stated you didn't receive confirmation.   That doesn't mean the Lord hasn't spoken to you through his chosen representative.  

It's fascinating to me that my colored shirts and pants at church are so threatening to you.  I'm comfortable in my standing with God on this matter.  I'm more than happy to let you anguish over it though. Have fun with that.

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

It's fascinating to me that my colored shirts and pants at church are so threatening to you.  I'm comfortable in my standing with God on this matter.  I'm more than happy to let you anguish over it though. Have fun with that.

Now you're falsely attributing to me something I never said.  My earlier assessment was accurate.  

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23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

If other people want to wear a white shirt, fine. I never said anything. You asked my opinion, I gave it.

You know what my experience is with investigators? They much, much, much rather talk (and listen) to someone who doesn't lecture them about what to wear when they show up to church. But I'm glad your experience worked for you. 

 

20 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I think you should make it known, when speaking on Church issues, that you aren't a practicing Latter-day Saint.  It's less confusing than when you pretend you are.  

@Grunt no one but you is confused that members of the Church come from different backgrounds and have different opinions. 

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