Why Women Don’t Wear Pants to Church


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44 minutes ago, Vort said:

 I've wondered before if I would be a nice drunk or a mean drunk. Honestly, I think I'd be at nice drunk. If I had to make a bet one way or the other, I'd go with nice. But I wouldn't bet very much.

Or maybe you're just such an obnoxious drunk that we had to neuralize you and plant this whole story about being Mormon so you wouldn't do it anymore. 

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On 8/22/2019 at 5:44 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

One of the facets of LDS culture that I’m less attached to, is the way we swear we are “fine” with someone even as we secretly fantasize about that person being disemboweled and devoured by vultures. 

 

(. . . Or is it just me who does that?)

:crackup:So true! But then you see these same people almost immediately do something really nice. We are a very nice group of people. With momentary lapses into the natural man so heh! 

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2 hours ago, Grunt said:

That doesn't invalidate my point.

But it completely makes mine...  Just because something is true doesn't make it the right thing to do...  Thus if we say something sharp that hurts someone we do not get to hide behind... "But it is true"  Not in God's eyes (and his are the only ones that matter) not as his priesthood holders not as someone that is trying to follow him.

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22 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

But it completely makes mine...  Just because something is true doesn't make it the right thing to do...  Thus if we say something sharp that hurts someone we do not get to hide behind... "But it is true"  Not in God's eyes (and his are the only ones that matter) not as his priesthood holders not as someone that is trying to follow him.

Maybe.  I'm not sure you have the authority to decide how God will judge those who correct false messages.

Edited by Grunt
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9 hours ago, Grunt said:

Maybe.  I'm not sure you have the authority to decide how God will judge those who correct false messages.

 

Ohh now who is judging motives...  Accusing me of pride telling God how to judge when what I have done was reference what the Lord had said in scriptures.

Lets go over that scripture in detail shall we.  Here is the Beginning of it in Doctrine and Covenant 121 : 30

 

Quote

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

 

This is God saying while he has called many only a few will he choose... Thus God is telling us about a judgement he will make.

Then in verse 35 he answers the Question with the statement that its because we did not learn one lesson.

Verses 36 through 39 he then teaches the lesson of unrighteous dominion.  And then he repeats that is why in verse 40.

Then from verse 41 onward he goes from the negative (what we should not do) to the positive (what we should do)

In verse 43 he authorized the use of Sharpness.... let read it and note the conditional.

Quote


43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost;

 

 

This is not me making stuff up.  This is not me pridefully dictating to God how he should judge.  This is me showing you exactly the Word of God on the matter... Fully expecting that God will keep his word.

So lets follow what the Lord has said. The only acceptable condition for us to use sharpness is when moved by the Spirit. (Again this is the Lords condition not mine).  Note that truth, righteous, faithfulness, and a lot of other very good things are excluded. If we use sharpness without being moved by the Spirit any other 'Good stuff' we might have as motivation does not matter.  We will have shown that we have failed to learn the lesson.  And if we ultimately do not learn lesson the Lord is clear he will not Choose us.  Does that sound Good to you? Does not being Chosen by God sound like a bad thing?  It does to me. 

Now the good thing is, is that we can repent.  That we can try to learn the lesson, that when we screw it up (and I know I do) we can repent and try to do better. But we can't repent if we do not know that what we are doing is wrong in the eyes of God.  If we tell ourselves that it is ok because we spoke 'truth' with Sharpness even though we were not moved by the Spirit then we are blind ourselves to our sin, and that will not end well.

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57 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

This is not me making stuff up. 

 

Of course, it is.  First, you assume to define sharpness.  Second, you assume sharpness isn't moved upon by the Holy Ghost.  

Christ himself flipped a few tables when His Father's space was tainted.  

As President Oaks points out, we aren't to make final judgments, only intermediary judgments.  In John 4, Matthew 15, and Mark 12 we see examples of those perverting God's word being rebuked by Christ.  We're to follow His example, no?  

In Mosiah, the Lord tells Alma to judge according to the sins committed.  

I believe we have an obligation to point out what is right in God's eyes and what is wrong.  I'm prompted to do so on many occasions.  I also believe that just because it hurts your feelings, doesn't mean it's "sharp" or improper.  The truth is the truth.  I don't believe that's wrong in the eyes of God.  I do believe sitting on the sidelines and watching people pervert his house and word is.

Turning a blind eye to it is why we have people saying it's fine to wear whatever shirt you want to church and jeans are great.   They aren't.

Edited by Grunt
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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Of course, it is.  First, you assume to define sharpness.  Second, you assume sharpness isn't moved upon by the Holy Ghost.  

Christ himself flipped a few tables when His Father's space was tainted.  

As President Oaks points out, we aren't to make final judgments, only intermediary judgments.  In John 4, Matthew 15, and Mark 12 we see examples of those perverting God's word being rebuked by Christ.  We're to follow His example, no?  

In Mosiah, the Lord tells Alma to judge according to the sins committed.  

I believe we have an obligation to point out what is right in God's eyes and what is wrong.  I'm prompted to do so on many occasions.  I also believe that just because it hurts your feelings, doesn't mean it's "sharp" or improper.  The truth is the truth.  

Turning a blind eye to it is why we have people saying it's fine to wear whatever shirt you want to church and jeans are great.   They aren't.

Again way to miss the point...  But that seems to be  the way you work and I see no point in continuing

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1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

Again way to miss the point...  But that seems to be  the way you work and I see no point in continuing

Ok.  Nice personal jab.  I'm sure that is right in God's eyes, no?  A little sharp, maybe?

Edited by Grunt
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Guest MormonGator
9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A parent I was working with, recently:  “They can’t judge me!”

Me:  “This is a court of law.  That’s kind of what they do here.”

Those are the judgements you have to listen to and obey. The judgements of strangers you can, and should, mostly just ignore. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Those are the judgements you have to listen to and obey. The judgements of strangers you can, and should, mostly just ignore. 

I'm glad I listened to the judgments of strangers a few weeks ago.  It brought me to a whole new understanding of the Sabbath and how I could observe it better.

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14 hours ago, Vort said:

 I've wondered before if I would be a nice drunk or a mean drunk. Honestly, I think I'd be at nice drunk. If I had to make a bet one way or the other, I'd go with nice. But I wouldn't bet very much.

A co-worker told me they think I would be a nice drunk, however, even without the Word of Wisdom, I am much to afraid of what terrible or mischievous things I might do as a drunk to ever test that theory.

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4 hours ago, Grunt said:

Of course, it is.  First, you assume to define sharpness.  Second, you assume sharpness isn't moved upon by the Holy Ghost.  

Christ himself flipped a few tables when His Father's space was tainted.  

As President Oaks points out, we aren't to make final judgments, only intermediary judgments.  In John 4, Matthew 15, and Mark 12 we see examples of those perverting God's word being rebuked by Christ.  We're to follow His example, no?  

In Mosiah, the Lord tells Alma to judge according to the sins committed.  

I believe we have an obligation to point out what is right in God's eyes and what is wrong.  I'm prompted to do so on many occasions.  I also believe that just because it hurts your feelings, doesn't mean it's "sharp" or improper.  The truth is the truth.  I don't believe that's wrong in the eyes of God.  I do believe sitting on the sidelines and watching people pervert his house and word is.

Turning a blind eye to it is why we have people saying it's fine to wear whatever shirt you want to church and jeans are great.   They aren't.

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:9-14)

@Grunt, how do you see yourself, as the Pharisee or the publican?

M.

Edited by Maureen
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Just now, Maureen said:

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:9-14)

@Grunt, how do you see yourself, as the Pharisee or the publican?

M.

 

 

 

Not really any of your concern now, is it?  

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I skipped pages 3 - 8 of this thread so maybe the following has already been said, but it seems to me as though 1 Corinthians 8 is quite relevant to this discussion. That chaper is about eating meat offered to idols, but I believe the same principles could readily be applied to women wearing pants at church

8  But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9  But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10.  For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11  And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:10 - 13)

 

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Very recently I was introduced to a new term - at least a new term for me.  But I should be careful because I may have said something on this forum and forgot about it.  As I am getting older I am getting much better about forgetting such things.  The term is called "Gaslighting".  I am so impressed with this term I have thought about creating a thread just on this notion.  Initially - gaslighting came from an oppressive means of gaining control over another person by making them believe they are inferior and need to (or must be) be controlled or really bad things will happen. The main goal or use of gaslighting is to blame others for one's choices or behaviors.  

One example of gaslighting is - "What you say makes me angry" (or sad or whatever).  Gaslighting is very popular among many individuals that have gone inactive.  In short they blame someone else and act or think they have no responsibility.  Some other examples are - "What you are saying is hurtful". 

There is something else - but it does not have a term I know about yet.  The is the tendency we all have to think or believe that everybody should think or believe exactly what we do.  So ladies may believe that if they wear a dress to church all women should - or we they were to wear pants - to believe everybody else should as well or at least the should believe pants to be 100% appropriate.   I wonder if it is that the more people feel guilty about something they are doing - the more angry they get if someone reminds them that they shouldn't ought to do it.  The corollary to this is the more someone is pleased and knows what to do the less they are worried that others have not figured it out yet.  (the operative word being yet - implying that eventually, if logic is employed, the result will be similar.

I have a very strong tendency to believe everyone should believe what I believe.  I am a very logic driven person and regardless I think deep down everybody else is as well.  I should have learned because my wife is not logic driven.  But my problem is - when someone has come to a different conclusion (I want to compare logic - so I know for sure my logic is sound.  But I have discovered that individual that do not employ logic much - hate to have their logic checked - and they hate explaining their logic.  I love explaining my logic and often hope someone will challenge it - but, as my wife explains, I am a minority (even though I cannot understand why).

So here are some thoughts:

If you do not like having your logic challenged - you should not post your opinion on an internet forum.

If you have a problem being told your logic is flawed - you should not respond to criticism (ever).

If you are confused with logic tables or structures - do not criticize others' logic or gaslight them for criticizing your's. 

If you get upset or angry with what appears to you to be stupid or foolishness of others - be the better person and let it go.  They must live with their foolishness - you don't have to - you can just walk away and forget it.

 

The Traveler

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7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

...So here are some thoughts:

If you do not like having your logic challenged - you should not post your opinion on an internet forum.

If you have a problem being told your logic is flawed - you should not respond to criticism (ever).

If you are confused with logic tables or structures - do not criticize others' logic or gaslight them for criticizing your's. 

If you get upset or angry with what appears to you to be stupid or foolishness of others - be the better person and let it go.  They must live with their foolishness - you don't have to - you can just walk away and forget it....

All good thoughts, but the last one is my favourite.

M.

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