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GaleG
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On 9/18/2019 at 1:26 AM, Jersey Boy said:

As to your second point, the Book of Mormon says that Lehi was well aware of the imprisonment of Jeremiah, an event that took place toward the end of Zedekiah’s reign. So that means Jerusalem was destroyed less than a year after Lehi’s departure. In historical terms,, a span of less than a year of time seems to fit well with the the expression immediately.

Thank you. Based on how it's worded, I would agree.

When I read that part of the Book of Mormon, I see some highlights about how life  
was like for Lehi/Ishmael and his family just before they departed.

- The introduction notes of 1 Nephi 1 says "The Lord warns Lehi to depart out of  
the land of Jerusalem, because he prophesieth unto the people concerning their  
iniquity and they seek to destroy his life". 1 Nephi 1:20 and 1 Nephi 2:1  
mention this.  
                                            
- 1 Nephi 2 – Lehi leaves Jerusalem in the first year of Zedekiah’s reign  
(introductory notes to 3 Nephi 1).
 
- 1 Nephi 3 – Nephi and his brothers return to Jerusalem to get their gold, silver,  
and other precious items in order to barter for brass plates from Laban. They are  
denied the plates, their treasures are confiscated and they flee out of Jerusalem  
and back into the wilderness.
 
- 1 Nephi 4 – They return again to Jerusalem and are successful in retrieving the  
plates after Laban is killed. They leave Jerusalem in haste for fear of being  
captured by Laban's servants.  
 
- 1 Nephi 7 – They return to Jerusalem again and get Ishmael and his household. In  
1 Nephi 7:6, some of Ishmael's household, together with some of Nephi's brothers,  
rebel and wish to return to the land of Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 16:36 mentions that the  
daughters of Ishmael wanted to return to Jerusalem.
 
- 1 Nephi 17:21 – One of Lehi’s sons says they would have been happier and enjoyed  
their possessions if they had only remained in Jerusalem.

From the looks of it, their life and activity didn't seem to be impacted by the Babylonian
invasion and military presence in and around Jerusalem.

Gale

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2 hours ago, GaleG said:

Thank you. Based on how it's worded, I would agree.

When I read that part of the Book of Mormon, I see some highlights about how life  
was like for Lehi/Ishmael and his family just before they departed.

- The introduction notes of 1 Nephi 1 says "The Lord warns Lehi to depart out of  
the land of Jerusalem, because he prophesieth unto the people concerning their  
iniquity and they seek to destroy his life". 1 Nephi 1:20 and 1 Nephi 2:1  
mention this.  
                                            
- 1 Nephi 2 – Lehi leaves Jerusalem in the first year of Zedekiah’s reign  
(introductory notes to 3 Nephi 1).
 
- 1 Nephi 3 – Nephi and his brothers return to Jerusalem to get their gold, silver,  
and other precious items in order to barter for brass plates from Laban. They are  
denied the plates, their treasures are confiscated and they flee out of Jerusalem  
and back into the wilderness.
 
- 1 Nephi 4 – They return again to Jerusalem and are successful in retrieving the  
plates after Laban is killed. They leave Jerusalem in haste for fear of being  
captured by Laban's servants.  
 
- 1 Nephi 7 – They return to Jerusalem again and get Ishmael and his household. In  
1 Nephi 7:6, some of Ishmael's household, together with some of Nephi's brothers,  
rebel and wish to return to the land of Jerusalem. 1 Nephi 16:36 mentions that the  
daughters of Ishmael wanted to return to Jerusalem.
 
- 1 Nephi 17:21 – One of Lehi’s sons says they would have been happier and enjoyed  
their possessions if they had only remained in Jerusalem.

From the looks of it, their life and activity didn't seem to be impacted by the Babylonian
invasion and military presence in and around Jerusalem.

Gale

This is the type of post that causes me to ponder the sincerity of your questioning. I already know Jim isn't sincere.

In what world is a people impacted by another until the invasion? There were still rich people in Jerusalem (who were enjoying their riches) before they were once again destroyed. So, yes, it is quite obvious they would have been enjoying what wealth they obtained before they left, and they would have enjoyed it up until the invasion. Moot point.

You use Laman and Lemuel as an example, who were rebellious and wanted to go back to their wealth, as they didn't believe their father as he was a "visionary man" in their eyes and a foolish man.

What is the purpose of the questioning? Are you hoping you will find loopholes, that somehow two stories have to match up perfectly in order for both stories to be true?

The point of these stories is not a history lesson of exact times and dates. It is a statement, as given in the first chapter of the Book of Mormon pertaining to the tender mercies of the Lord upon Lehi's family.

1) Lehi was a prophet who prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem. Straining at the word "immediate" is childish. Immediate is interpreted as "not so many years" before the destruction of Jerusalem. Often used to say the exact time is not given, but the event will occur.

2) Lehi and family were spared from the destruction of Jerusalem. Again not a history lesson, but a statement of how the mercy of the Lord was upon them.

3) We know Lehi and others received witness (both temporal and spiritual) of the destruction of Jerusalem. The exact time and date again, not important to a story that is highlighting the tender mercies of the Lord sparing a family due to the father's desire to serve the Lord.

So, what is your point exactly, and why are you hung up on simple terms? The sincerity of your questioning is wanting.

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3 hours ago, GaleG said:

The manual on page 92 (see attached) seems to supplement the teaching
that the destruction of Jerusalem occured immediately after Lehi left; as it
references 2 Nephi 25:10 - Wherefore, it hath been told them concerning the
destruction which  should come upon them, immediately after my father left
Jerusalem;  nevertheless, they hardened their hearts; and according to my
prophecy  they have been destroyed, save it be those which are carried away
captive  into Babylon.
 
The introductory notes for 3 Nephi 1 says "And Helaman was the son of  
Helaman, who was the son of Alma, who was the son of Alma, being a  
descendant of Nephi who was the son of Lehi, who came out of Jerusalem  
in the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, the king of Judah."
 
If you don't believe this, it would help if you could explain your toughts on what
year in Zedekiah's reign was Jerusalem destroyed and when he was carried away
captive to Babylon.

I don't know Jim but on the surface he appears to be ex-LDS.
 
Thank you,
 
Gale

lds - image - BOM manual - page92.gif

Ok.  As I understand it, professional historians (and the Bible itself) tell us that Zedekiah reigned for about eleven years, beginning right after the Babylonians’ first sack of Jerusalem and ending with the second one.  If the Lehites leave during Zedekiah’s first year, then by necessity the first fall of Jerusalem would already have happened (else Jehoiakim/Jehoiachin, not Zedekiah, would have been on the throne) and the next fall of Jerusalem would still be at least ten years off.  The alternative would be that Lehi actually spent about ten years preaching in Jerusalem (all of which would be covered by 1 Ne 1)—but I’ve never seen anyone in LDS circles make that suggestion; and as you note, even Mormon himself (who wrote the header to 3 Nephi that you’re referring to) didn’t read it that way. 

As I mention in my preceding post, in what would be the eighth year of Zedekiah’s reign Nephi says he doesn’t know if Jerusalem has been destroyed yet.  About twelve years after Zedekiah’s coronation, Lehi announces that Jerusalem has indeed been destroyed.  Jeremiah 39 tells us that Babylon besieged the city in Year 9, and that the city fell in Year 11.  (It’s also worth noting that Jeremiah had several brushes with the law in his lifetime, some apparently even before Zedekiah was on the throne; so Nephi’s referring to Jeremiah’s imprisonment could have been made early in Zedekiah’s reign.  See https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/how-could-nephi-have-known-about-jeremiahs-imprisonment)

Furthermore, because we know that Jerusalem was under siege for at least a year and a half, there’s absolutely no way that Jerusalem could have been destroyed “immediately” after the Lehites’ departure, unless they left after the siege was already well under way (which doesn’t jibe with Nephi then slipping in and out of the city three more times, including with Ishmael and his entire household). 

That’s why I don’t take Nephi’s use of the word “immediately” thirty years after the event in question, very seriously. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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On 9/20/2019 at 12:34 PM, Anddenex said:

This is the type of post that causes me to ponder the sincerity of your questioning.

In what world is a people impacted by another until the invasion? There were still rich people in Jerusalem (who were enjoying their riches) before they were once again destroyed. So, yes, it is quite obvious they would have been enjoying what wealth they obtained before they left, and they would have enjoyed it up until the invasion. Moot point.

Hi Anddenex,

I hope you don't view my line of questioning as me being insincere.  The references to the Book
of Mormon in my previous post indicated some events which are said to have happened to Lehi
and his family.  I saw the Book of Mormon video where Lehi is commanded to leave Jerusalem. 
It seems to me to depict a people living at ease given the events recorded before Zedekiah
assumes the throne (2 Kings 24:8-18).

I'm trying to view this from a historical perspective of the time before Zedekiah becomes king.
(while Lehi is still in Jerusalem living with all his wealth).

8  Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he  
reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter  
of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
 
9  And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, according  
to all that his father had done.
 
10  At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up  
against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

 
11  And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his  
servants did besiege it.

 
12  And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon,  
he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the  
king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
 
13  And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord,  
and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold  
which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the Lord, as the Lord had  
said
.
 
14  And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the  
mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths:  
none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land
.
 
15  And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king's mother,  
and the king's wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried  
he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
 
16  And all the men of might, even seven thousand, and craftsmen and  
smiths a thousand, all that were strong and apt for war, even them the king of  
Babylon brought captive to Babylon.
 
17  And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king  
in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
 
18  Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and  
he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the  
daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah

Thank you

Gale

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28 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Hi Anddenex,

I hope you don't view my line of questioning as me being insincere.  The references to the Book
of Mormon in my previous post indicated some events which are said to have happened to Lehi
and his family.  I saw the Book of Mormon video where Lehi is commanded to leave Jerusalem. 
It seems to me to depict a people living at ease given the events recorded before Zedekiah
assumes the throne (2 Kings 24:8-18).

I'm trying to view this from a historical perspective of the time before Zedekiah becomes king.
(while Lehi is still in Jerusalem living with all his wealth).

8  Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he  
reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter  
of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
 
9  And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, according  
to all that his father had done.
 
10  At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up  
against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged.

 
11  And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his  
servants did besiege it.

 
12  And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon,  
he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the  
king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
 
13  And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord,  
and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold  
which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the Lord, as the Lord had  
said
.
 
14  And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the  
mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths:  
none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land
.
 
15  And he carried away Jehoiachin to Babylon, and the king's mother,  
and the king's wives, and his officers, and the mighty of the land, those carried  
he into captivity from Jerusalem to Babylon.
 
16  And all the men of might, even seven thousand, and craftsmen and  
smiths a thousand, all that were strong and apt for war, even them the king of  
Babylon brought captive to Babylon.
 
17  And the king of Babylon made Mattaniah his father's brother king  
in his stead, and changed his name to Zedekiah.
 
18  Zedekiah was twenty and one years old when he began to reign, and  
he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hamutal, the  
daughter of Jeremiah of Libnah

Thank you

Gale

Zedekiah’s Jerusalem was certainly poorer than Josiah’s Jerusalem; but that doesn’t mean that there were no wealthy/affluent individuals left (it was in the Babylonians’ interest to have enough of a native hierarchy left in place, to keep order amongst the rabble; and those seen as pro-Babylonian could get very gentle treatment indeed, as Jeremiah would later learn).  Occupying garrisons actually tended to be quite small; so long as a client kingdom maintained its regular tribute payments, the big empires were usually content to let them rule themselves.

Also, FWIW, 2 Chronicles has Jehoiachin as being eight (not eighteen) when he assumed the throne; he apparently assumed the throne after Jehoiakim died mid-siege and the Babylonians promptly exiled him to Babylon where he lived out his days in relative ease.

One other thing to bear in mind is that the Old Testament was largely compiled and committed to writing by Jewish exiles in Babylon who had been deported along with Jehoiachin (as well as their descendants who were trying to re-establish themselves in Jerusalem under Cyrus and assert their primacy over the Jews who had been living there all along).  To suggest that all the cream of Judaism had been taken to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar and that only the dregs of Jewish society remained in the Holy Land, was a somewhat . . . self-serving claim for the scribes who gave us the Old Testament.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/16/2019 at 7:08 PM, theplains said:

In relation to Zedekiah's years of rulership, when was Jerusalem destroyed?

Thanks,
Jim

I believe the Book of Mormon is pretty clear as to when Jerusalem was destroyed in relation to Zedekiah. I believe you have read the verses also.

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:22 PM, Anddenex said:

I believe the Book of Mormon is pretty clear as to when Jerusalem was destroyed in relation to Zedekiah. I believe you have read the verses also.

When I add 2 Nephi 25:10 plus the introductory notes for 3 Nephi 1, it seems the destruction of
Jerusalem happened roughly in the first year of Zedekiah's reign.

Jim

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35 minutes ago, theplains said:

When I add 2 Nephi 25:10 plus the introductory notes for 3 Nephi 1, it seems the destruction of
Jerusalem happened roughly in the first year of Zedekiah's reign.

Jim

When I add Acts 9:3-8, Acts 22:6-11, and Acts 26:13-19, “it seems” Paul couldn’t get his story straight.  Additional context in these sorts of efforts is always helpful; and those who insist on limiting the scope of their inquiry to play “dueling scriptures” inevitably reveal more about themselves than about the texts they are parsing. 

In 1 Ne 17:43 (tentatively dated around 592 BC), Nephi states he doesn’t know whether Jerusalem has been destroyed yet.  In 2 Ne 1:4, dated around 588 BC, Lehi announces that it has indeed been destroyed.  Nephi’s use of “immediately” in 2 Ne 25:10 (dating to 559 BC at the earliest) should be granted the latitude we’d ordinarily give to someone rehashing a thirty-year-old memory.  We know the destruction wasn’t “immediate”, because the boys went back to Jerusalem twice after Lehi left and apparently found business was going on as usual. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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59 minutes ago, Vort said:

I used to think that, too. Why Gale and Jim want to participate here, and why they're allowed to remain, both escape me.

I never felt Jim was sincere, his attempts were obviously clear. The last couple of questions Gale has presented seem all to similar now to Jim's questions. Not much desire to learn, but trying to trap with opened-ended, double-barreled questions.

I.e. Jim's response of the Book of Mormon mentioning the first year. I don't know of any scripture in the Book of Mormon that gives an exact date except for Christ's birth, and that is clear if a person is reading with a genuine heart.

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