Just_A_Guy

No Guns in Sacrament Meeting—We Mean It This Time!!!

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The question that I have is:

 

Why would the church leadership prohibit weapons except for law enforcement? 

 

Some of you more legally in-the-know might have some insight. (As well as those who are in Utah.) 

 

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3 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Why would the church leadership prohibit weapons except for law enforcement? 

 

I stole this from a poster named Amulek at another website:

Quote

Say, for example, you are a public school teacher, and the city prohibits employees from carrying guns at work. If you were a teacher who brought a gun to school and then became involved in a shooting, someone might have a cause of action against you personally for personal injury, wrongful death, emotional damages, punitive damages or more, but the entity they really would want to go after - the one with the deep pockets - is your employer: the city. 

However, the city would turn around and say, not so fast. We have an official policy prohibiting our employees from carrying firearms. When Leeroy Jenkins over here decided to violate our policies he did so as an individual actor and his actions were his own - he was not acting as an agent on our behalf, so we should not be held liable for his behavior. 

I suspect that is what the church is trying to do with their policy: avoid the potential for institutional liability in the event that something goes wrong. So, when the church's risk-management (and possibly insurance) teams look at the chance of there being a mass shooting in a church building as opposed to the likelihood of their being a negligent discharge, the smart decision is to hedge your bets against the most likely outcome. 

 

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1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

...but I would rather go see the concert/event then get into a pissing contest over it.

This is exactly how I feel about church and the Sacrament. I think this is a terrible policy and choice. Perhaps I am biased because I carry everywhere else. However, I also follow the counsel from my leaders and I want to be able to partake of the Sacrament. Sometimes it is better to be united than to try and prove a point.

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2 hours ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  I would assume, even if you have the right to carry, you can be trespassed, right?  I mean, you can't just walk into my home if you need to use the restroom, can you?

Sorry, to clarify, I was not meaning private residences, when I said private property.

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1 hour ago, dprh said:

I wish I knew @mirkwood well enough to give him a friendly jab about how often he's asked to leave :) 

More then once, but that was because someone was unhappy with the police being called.

Off duty I have been asked to leave a building one time...and I did.

 

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Thinking that carrying a firearm is only for mass shootings is like thinking that having a year's supply of food is only for famine.

What are other scenarios where you'd need your firearm on a routine day out and about?

Edited by carlimac

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4 minutes ago, carlimac said:

What are other scenarios where you'd need your firearm on a routine day out and about?

As a woman, a firearm on you makes it so that if anything happens, you can be on equal footing with those stronger than you who wants to hurt you.  Of course, the idea that you can live your life day after day without being put in a position that you have to defend yourself from violence is a privilege held by a few elite people in the world such that relying on other people to defend you is the equivalent of having the privilege of a maid cleaning your toilet.

Edited by anatess2

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15 minutes ago, carlimac said:

What are other scenarios where you'd need your firearm on a routine day out and about?

"need"?  Almost never.  But if the need arises, which it probably won't, here are other scenarios.  Again, they almost never happen, but when they do, they often happen on a "routine day out":

- Neighborhood dogs attacking your kid

- Stuck out in the middle of nowhere as an attention getter (three shots = help)

- Putting down suffering animals hit by cars

- The hundreds of thousands of self-defense situations that occur every year in this country, where someone is willing to do serious/deadly harm to you or yours, to get what you have.  Not talking about robbery, even armed robbery.  This is someone wanting to hurt/kill someone to take their stuff or their virtue or their daughter.

- Short/medium term natural disasters that disrupt food supply/power/water and overwhelm law enforcement and public services.  People turn into animals in about 2 days.  Many stories from Hurricane Katrina, looting from the Rodney King riots, etc.  I've been snowed into town and unable to get home before.  

Edited by NeuroTypical

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So, here's the concept of the 2nd Amendment that as a Filipino, I envy for not having the same protected right in my home country:

One can insist that one has the right to life, the right to speak, the right to worship, the right to pursue happiness, the right to a fair trial, etc.  But, those rights do not become manifest if every time you say, "I have the right to speak!" somebody slaps you right across your face.  So, unless you CAN defend any right you claim as yours, those rights do not exist.

Perfect example:  Last week in Hong Kong.

zusu0vgtasi31.jpg

Edited by anatess2

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17 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

"need"?  Almost never.  But if the need arises, which it probably won't, here are other scenarios.  Again, they almost never happen, but when they do, they often happen on a "routine day out":

- Neighborhood dogs attacking your kid

- Stuck out in the middle of nowhere as an attention getter (three shots = help)

- Putting down suffering animals hit by cars

- The hundreds of thousands of self-defense situations that occur every year in this country, where someone is willing to do serious/deadly harm to you or yours, to get what you have.  Not talking about robbery, even armed robbery.  This is someone wanting to hurt/kill someone to take their stuff or their virtue or their daughter.

- Short/medium term natural disasters that disrupt food supply/power/water and overwhelm law enforcement and public services.  People turn into animals in about 2 days.  Many stories from Hurricane Katrina, looting from the Rodney King riots, etc.  I've been snowed into town and unable to get home before.  

I have experience with 3 of those situations, and can tell you that firearms have been extremely helpful. They have helped me end the lives of multiple injured animals quickly and mercifully, prevent a small yet heated argument from becoming a big and violent one, and give me and my family a sense of security during a time of uncertainty. They are useful tools if used responsibly. Not to mention all of the food I have been able to procure for my family that has helped us save and channel our money to other necessities of life.

Edited by scottyg
spelling

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19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

"need"?  Almost never.  But if the need arises, which it probably won't, here are other scenarios.  Again, they almost never happen, but when they do, they often happen on a "routine day out":

- Neighborhood dogs attacking your kid

- Stuck out in the middle of nowhere as an attention getter (three shots = help)

- Putting down suffering animals hit by cars

- The hundreds of thousands of self-defense situations that occur every year in this country, where someone is willing to do serious/deadly harm to you or yours, to get what you have.  Not talking about robbery, even armed robbery.  This is someone wanting to hurt/kill someone to take their stuff or their virtue or their daughter.

- Short/medium term natural disasters that disrupt food supply/power/water and overwhelm law enforcement and public services.  People turn into animals in about 2 days.  Many stories from Hurricane Katrina, looting from the Rodney King riots, etc.  I've been snowed into town and unable to get home before.  

And leaving a firearm in your car while at Church meetings wouldn't really affect any of these situations, except maybe natural disasters that blow cars away.

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Bringing a firearm to church is not new.  J. Golden Kimball loved his firearms but he did not bring them to church.  Once speaking on the subject he said something along the line - "it has come to my attention that some of you are bringing guns to church in your back pockets - you shouldn't ought to do that.  Why it might accidentally go off and you would blow your brains out."

In the "Lectures on Faith" we are told that the citizens of Enoch were feared in the land and that no army would come upon them.  I envision a citizen of Enoch out plowing their field when a great army would come upon them - that they could call down fire from heaven or move a mountain to where the army stood if necessary to protect Zion.  And that was just one citizen.  We should all have faith to follow the brethren in this matter - and if it so be that we should die (as per the song, "Come Come ye Saints") - All is well, all is well.  In scripture we are promised that if we have faith and believe - all things will turn out for our good.

I am of the mind that in the last days the there will be great chaos in that neighbor will rise up against neighbor - but there will be peace in Zion.  My trust is in Zion.

 

The Traveler

 

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37 minutes ago, dprh said:

And leaving a firearm in your car while at Church meetings wouldn't really affect any of these situations, except maybe natural disasters that blow cars away.

True.  At the cost of the increased risk of having your firearm stolen out of your car.

Somewhere around 380,000 guns are stolen from private owners each year, the estimate is a full quarter of that number are stolen out of cars.

https://everytownresearch.org/stolen-guns-pose-tremendous-risk-public-safety/

Quote

The number of guns stolen from cars nearly doubled between 2006 and 2015, with several cities experiencing more than threefold increases.

 

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3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Bringing a firearm to church is not new.  J. Golden Kimball loved his firearms but he did not bring them to church.  Once speaking on the subject he said something along the line - "it has come to my attention that some of you are bringing guns to church in your back pockets - you shouldn't ought to do that.  Why it might accidentally go off and you would blow your brains out."

In the "Lectures on Faith" we are told that the citizens of Enoch were feared in the land and that no army would come upon them. 

Lectures on faith you say?  Speaking of Joseph Smith quotes:

Quote

“Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard.” (An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298.)

 

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2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

True.  At the cost of the increased risk of having your firearm stolen out of your car.

Somewhere around 380,000 guns are stolen from private owners each year, the estimate is a full quarter of that number are stolen out of cars.

https://everytownresearch.org/stolen-guns-pose-tremendous-risk-public-safety/

 

Well, the options are limited.  Personally, I have a lockbox in my truck.  Sure, that won't stop a determined thief who happens to find it and has bolt cutters on him, but I do what I can.

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35 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Lectures on faith you say?  Speaking of Joseph Smith quotes:

Quote

“Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard.” (An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298.)

 

I served in the army during the Vietnam conflict.  I qualified as "expert"; that is most difficult with an M1.  I also spent several years working as a contractor for the "defense department" on several "advanced" weapon systems.  If necessary I can protect my family with a firearm - or other weapons.  I have come to believe that a righteous priesthood holder that prefers the powers of the priesthood over the armaments of men to protect his family is not a coward.   A coward is someone that is not concerned with others - only themself.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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I have been surprised how much attention this has been getting, I would feel very uncomfortable knowing that people were carrying weapons in the congregation. 

The perspective of needing a firearm is so foreign to me and I lived on an army base with armed patrols and car inspections looking for explosives due to the threat of terrorism from Ireland (with terrorist attacks an unfortunate almost common occurrence).

In the UK we do have gun crime (although knife crime is a wider issue) and terrorist attacks to contend with but we don't have the same public desire to be carrying firearms. I know that the gun/no guns issue is huge in the US but have very little understanding of the need to always be carrying. I would like to understand the mindset more.

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7 hours ago, Colirio said:

The question that I have is:

 

Why would the church leadership prohibit weapons except for law enforcement? 

 

Some of you more legally in-the-know might have some insight. (As well as those who are in Utah.) 

 

I think Occam’s Razor is the simplest explanation here.  The Church has long suggested that guns and church are inappropriate; whereupon a number of folks—including participants in this forum—have suggested “well, yeah, but they don’t really mean that” or “surely, that doesn’t apply to ME!!!”  

Here’s the Church saying unequivocally “yes, we do; and yes, it does”.  

I think the legal ramifications are negligible.  The Church is just as likely to be sued after a mass-shooting in which its congregants were denied an opportunity to defend themselves with a gun, as to be sued by the victim of a mishap involving a fellow member who was packing heat at Church.  @mirkwood is probably more up on Utah gun laws than I am; but I think Utah requires that a “no guns” policy at a house of worship has to be clearly posted at the entrance(s).

Moreover—and I know I’ve been guilty of this myself in the past—but vis a vis the quotation that @NeuroTypical brings in from his friend Amulek; it’s probably not the best practice for us to start assuming that any policy in the CHI that we don’t like is merely the result of the Church’s liability attorneys having won an argument against the First Presidency.  We’ve known what the First Presidency thought about this, for a long time.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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1 hour ago, KScience said:

I have been surprised how much attention this has been getting, I would feel very uncomfortable knowing that people were carrying weapons in the congregation. 

The perspective of needing a firearm is so foreign to me and I lived on an army base with armed patrols and car inspections looking for explosives due to the threat of terrorism from Ireland (with terrorist attacks an unfortunate almost common occurrence).

In the UK we do have gun crime (although knife crime is a wider issue) and terrorist attacks to contend with but we don't have the same public desire to be carrying firearms. I know that the gun/no guns issue is huge in the US but have very little understanding of the need to always be carrying. I would like to understand the mindset more.

In the UK they also have the same laws (I believe) for the public as the Police.  In the US, there are certain privileges (for example, gun laws and brandishing a gun for example) that are more lenient towards police officers than they are for the public.

For example, in this instance, this church ruling is not really all that applicable to the UK as the Police normally do not carry weapons on them (unless they are part of a specific or special unit or squad).  In the US, almost every officer carries a weapon. 

It is a drastic difference of culture, law, and how things occur between the two nations.

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It seems to me that the church should be encouraging gun ownership instead of banning them.  Things are going to get very bad, especially if any of the Democrats win.  Self defense classes would definitely be useful to go along with the Emergency Preparedness program.  I guess I am just more militant than most members; when things go bad I am more of a "us (members) Vs them (pretty much everyone who isn't a member)."  What can I say, my favorite church hero is Porter Rockwell.  I have never taken a gun into church but you can bet your sweet Bippy I have at least one sharp blade on me.

Edited by Gomezaddams51

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I asked two of the wives at Mutual tonight. One husband doesn't carry at church but she said she is aware of an agent in the ward who usually does. The other wife (third SS agent) does "all the time". There are at least two other agents that I don't know about. So we're in luck if it ever happened in our ward on a Sunday they weren't off protecting POTUS or some other dignitary. Plus we have several active military members in our ward who might be in the habit of carrying. I wonder if they are included or excluded in this clarified rule. 

Edited by carlimac

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24 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I asked two of the wives at Mutual tonight. One husband doesn't carry at church but she said she is aware of an agent in the ward who usually does. The other wife (third SS agent) does "all the time". There are at least two other agents that I don't know about. so we're in luck if itr ever happened inour ward on a Sunday they weren't off protecting POTUS or some other dignitary. Plus we have several active military members in our ward who might be in the habit of carrying. I wonder if they are included or excluded in this clarified rule. 

I took it to mean we were excluded.  

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