Just_A_Guy

No Guns in Sacrament Meeting—We Mean It This Time!!!

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From another conversation:

On 8/22/2019 at 3:49 PM, MarginOfError said:

I know.  So crazy. 

Prophet-guy says something.
MOE prays: "God, that seems a bit odd. How do you feel about that?" 
God gives a metaphysical shoulder shrug
MOE wears a blue shirt to church
Grunt confirms that MOE is a non prophet following heathen.

On 8/22/2019 at 3:54 PM, Grunt said:

Just so that we made it perfectly clear.  

 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

10 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I don't get the difference.

 

So would that mean that anyone who wears their firearm to Church in contravention of this policy is a non-prophet following heathen?

Asking for a friend.

 

Edited by MarginOfError
Was missing a quote

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

From another conversation:

 

 

So would that mean that anyone who wears their firearm to Church in contravention of this policy is a non-prophet following heathen?

Asking for a friend.

 

That would be a Yes, dawg.

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11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Why would it do that?  Does it put you off that your pals in the US call it a trunk and not a boot?  Does it put you off that they eat grits instead of black pudding for breakfast?  Or that they can down 64 ounces of soda at the theater and still go for the free refill?

Looking at the statistics that were shared, the chances of getting killed by a gun jump significantly when a Brit comes to the US.  I can understand the hesitance. It's like swimming at one beach and then going to swim with friends at another beach where shark attacks are 3-4 times more likely.  Still very small, but worth noting.

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

From another conversation:

 

 

So would that mean that anyone who wears their firearm to Church in contravention of this policy is a non-prophet following heathen?

Asking for a friend.

 

Heathen?  I didn't say that.  They certainly aren't following the Prophet, though.  I never suggested otherwise.

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4 minutes ago, dprh said:

Looking at the statistics that were shared, the chances of getting killed by a gun jump significantly when a Brit comes to the US.  I can understand the hesitance. It's like swimming at one beach and then going to swim with friends at another beach where shark attacks are 3-4 times more likely.  Still very small, but worth noting.

It's important to remember that the USA is still very safe. Your odds of being a victim of a shooting are higher here, but your odds of getting into a car crash are much, much, much better. 

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33 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

KScience's post be like

Image result for comparing apples to oranges

 

Just about every time the US is compared to the UK in this issue

I know the apples and oranges thing gets thrown around a lot, but why do you think its an apples and oranges comparison?

The two countries are different, but have somewhat similar racial diversity (ephasis on somewhat), the percentage of urbanization is very close, and the median ages are very close.   The UK is smaller in area and population, but the largest cities in each country are roughly the same.  The UK is more densly populated. We even sort of speak the same language.

Although we aren't alike in all ways, the UK seems a pretty good country to make a comparison against. 

It seems more like comparing an orange to a grapefruit than an apple to an orange.   They are different, but have a lot of similarities as well.

 

Edited by Scott

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Heathen?  I didn't say that.  They certainly aren't following the Prophet, though.  I never suggested otherwise.

I apologize, my previous post was missing a quote in which you apparently were agreeing to my characterization of myself as a heathen for wearing a colored shirt. 

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1 minute ago, dprh said:

Looking at the statistics that were shared, the chances of getting killed by a gun jump significantly when a Brit comes to the US.  I can understand the hesitance. It's like swimming at one beach and then going to swim with friends at another beach where shark attacks are 3-4 times more likely.  Still very small, but worth noting.

Really?  Do you know the relative size of the UK vs the USA and the concentration of crime in each country? 

So, does he feel the same way about visiting friends that own knives?

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7 minutes ago, KScience said:

I am put off that so many people consider just day to day living requires a firearm to feel safe.

Do you put on a seat belt when you drive a car?  If so why?   Statically speaking nothing is likely to happen. But cars are involved in many many deaths.

In-spite of that that you know nothing is likely to happen chances are you do so anyways...  Because... should something happen anyways... the seat belt increases your chances of survival and lowers the amount of harm.  And no the seat belt is not perfect you might die or be seriously harmed anyways.

Carrying a gun is like putting on a seat belt.  Odds are (and you really hope) you do not need it.  And it is no guarantee for when things go wrong, but your chances go up.

Are you equally put off by those that wear seat belts because it makes them feel safe as you are gun carriers?  because if you are not... you have bought into the anti gun hype.

 

 

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1 minute ago, MarginOfError said:

I apologize, my previous post was missing a quote in which you apparently were agreeing to my characterization of myself as a heathen for wearing a colored shirt. 

I probably just ignored a dumb part of the comment to avoid making the argument sillier.

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1 minute ago, Scott said:

I know the apples and oranges thing gets thrown around a lot, but why do you think its an apples and oranges comparison?

The two countries are different, but have somewhat similar racial diversity (ephasis on somewhat), the percentage of urbanization is very close, the median ages are very close.   The UK is smaller in area and population, but the largest cities in each country are roughly the same.  The UK is more densly populated. We even sort of speak the same language.

Although we aren't alike in all ways, the UK seems a pretty good country to make a comparison against. 

It seems more like comparing a lemon to a lime than an apple to an orange.   They are different, but have a lot of similarities as well.

 

I answered this above. 

CULTURE.

Americans don't look at a firearm and think - This will Kill Me!  It's just another useful tool in the shed.  Like the car that kills more people than firearms don't trigger Americans to think - This will Kill Me!  It's just another useful tool.

British/Canadians look at a firearm and think - I'm dead.

 

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9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I answered this above. 

CULTURE.

Americans don't look at a firearm and think - This will Kill Me!  It's just another useful tool in the shed.  Like the car that kills more people than firearms don't trigger Americans to think - This will Kill Me!  It's just another useful tool.

British/Canadians look at a firearm and think - I'm dead.

So that is why the murder rate is higher in the US than in the UK/Canada?  (Notice that this is phrased in the form of a question).

I know that the gun culture is very different.  Is our gun culture the reason our murder rates are some of the highest in the developed world (but much lower than in several developing and undeveloped countries)?   It seem that that is what you are affirming.  

Edited by Scott

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10 minutes ago, dprh said:

Looking at the statistics that were shared, the chances of getting killed by a gun jump significantly when a Brit comes to the US. 

From squat, to squat and a half?    From getting hit by lightning, to maybe dying by pulling a refrigerator down onto yourself?    Perspective is important, but perspective isn't necessary when documenting our feelings. 

I might feel a bit anxious visiting Paris if I knew I would be walking around the Stade de France and the Bataclan theatre where 130 people were killed in 2015.  But if I gained a bit of perspective, my anxiety might be eased.

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7 minutes ago, dprh said:
9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Americans don't look at a firearm and think - This will Kill Me! 

This American does, and so do many others.

True.  There are many, many dprh's out there.  I'm probably sitting with 50 feet of two dozen of them - they're not all in California. (Although I'm sure many of them moved here from there.) :)

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22 minutes ago, Scott said:

I know the apples and oranges thing gets thrown around a lot, but why do you think its an apples and oranges comparison?

The two countries are different, but have somewhat similar racial diversity (ephasis on somewhat), the percentage of urbanization is very close, and the median ages are very close.   The UK is smaller in area and population, but the largest cities in each country are roughly the same.  The UK is more densly populated. We even sort of speak the same language.

Although we aren't alike in all ways, the UK seems a pretty good country to make a comparison against. 

It seems more like comparing an orange to a grapefruit than an apple to an orange.   They are different, but have a lot of similarities as well.
 

Come, now. London is a goshawful mess of scum and villainy, without parallel in the modern world.  I know this because I watch Sherlock.

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oh, I don't necessarily think it's bad policy.  But the Handbook is absolutely from Man, seeking to do God's will.  It's not scripture, it is not comprised of words breathed from the mouths of prophets who are saying "thus saith the LORD - guns are prohibited in church".  New scripture like that gets revealed over the pulpit at General Conference and submitted for a sustaining vote.  

I don't usually struggle between stuff our church leaders say, and my own opinions about how to do right.  The last fifty times they were in conflict, the obvious answer was for me to bend and change.  This one is slightly less obvious.  I mean, I really, REALLY think I'm right this time.  So I'm struggling.

I don’t see a need to do the mental gymnastics it would take to pass this off as being “good policy”.

Evacuating New York, and Kirtland, and Missouri and Nauvoo, rather than renouncing the activities that our neighbors found so offensive, was bad policy.

A new religion making a habit of gathering together as a people was, all things considered, bad policy. 

Polygamy was a terrible policy.

Burying one’s weapons was, literally, a suicidal policy.  

But every one of those policies was what the Lord wanted us to be doing; and He sent a prophet to ask us to embrace the policy even though by every secular analysis that policy was against our individual and collective temporal interests; and the Holy Spirit was/is available to offer confirmation to those willing to hear it.

I understand that the Church’s firearms policy may result in mine and my family’s eventual deaths via an inability to defend ourselves at a critical moment.  As a politically conservative American, I perhaps take this contingency more seriously than some of my progressive brethren here or my non-American brethren overseas.

But, I support the policy anyways.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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12 minutes ago, Scott said:

So that is why the murder rate is higher in the US than in the UK/Canada?  (Notice that this is phrased in the form of a question).

I know that the gun culture is very different.  Is our gun culture the reason our murder rates are some of the highest in the developed world (but much lower than in several developing and undeveloped countries)?   It seem that that is what you are affirming.  

No.  Murder rates don't have much of a correlation with gun ownership rates.  But yes, it is still culture.  If you take Chicago and Baltimore out of the count, you will find that the UK and US murder rates are about the same.  If you look at the gun ownership rate in the US compared to the UK it's very much lopsided... so if guns are the reason for the murder rate, USA would be... worse than Aleppo.

Murder rates simply means there are more people in one area/culture who believe someone's life has no value.  Guns is just one tool in that shed.  If guns are not available, they'll use some other tool - as is shown in London.

Banning guns will not change the fact that there are more people in one area/culture who believe someone's life has no value.

Edited by anatess2

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19 minutes ago, dprh said:

This American does, and so do many others.

Sure.  There are a lot of Americans right now cheering on China over the US.  That doesn't mean "America prefers to be under the Chinese government".  There are several traits that are distinctly American.  Liberty and individual accountability is one of them (regardless of the rise of Democratic Socialists).  Law and Order is one of them (regardless of the presence of sanctuary cities).  Gun ownership is one of them (regardless of... well, you and so many others).

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17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If you take Chicago and Baltimore out of the count, you will find that the UK and US murder rates are about the same.

This isn't even remotely true.   Baltimore had 309 murders last year.   Chicago had 569.  US totals won't be released until next month, but there were 19,510 murders in the US in 2017.  You would have to take roughly 60 Blatimores or 32 Chigagos out of the equation before the two countries had similar murder rates (feel free to check the math).

 

Edited by Scott

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Sure.  There are a lot of Americans right now cheering on China over the US.  That doesn't mean "America prefers to be under the Chinese government".  There are several traits that are distinctly American.  Liberty and individual accountability is one of them (regardless of the rise of Democratic Socialists).  Law and Order is one of them (regardless of the presence of sanctuary cities).  Gun ownership is one of them (regardless of... well, you and so many others).

I didn't say anything about ownership and the quote I used from you didn't either.  You said 

Quote

Americans don't look at a firearm and think - This will Kill Me!  It's just another useful tool in the shed.  Like the car that kills more people than firearms don't trigger Americans to think - This will Kill Me!  It's just another useful tool.

And I pointed out that no, not all Americans think that way.  Just about every time I see a gun IRL, I think it can kill me.  Maybe it's too much TV and video games.  Maybe it's just a safe perspective of the tool.  Honestly, most gun-owners I know, also have a healthy respect for gun safety BECAUSE they know it can kill them.  Guns were invented to kill.  Their designs have been improved to do it better.  Yes, they have other uses.  But to blatantly ignore the fact that they can kill seems foolish to me.

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7 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

There are a lot of Americans right now cheering on China over the US.

Who?  I don't know of many.   I guess there are probably a lot of businesses that sell a lot of Chinese made goods that might want the trade war to the end, but I wouldn't consider that cheering China over the US.  

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1 hour ago, KScience said:

There are lots of comments on this post about people feeling the need to protect themselves and their families. Do you anticipate dealing with violent crime on a regular basis?

The general feeling in the UK is that there is infrequent violent crime, so there is no need to carry guns.

It only takes one incident for me, my spouse, or one of my 7 children to end up dead.  Identity theft is statistically a rare occurrence, and yet there are hundreds of companies that are successful at selling identity theft protection.  Why?  Because it only takes one incident to financially ruin someone for the foreseeable future.  Personal protection is the same; you carry a weapon all of the time, hoping you will never need to use it, but it is there in case you do.

On the rare chance that a violent incident should occur that directly affects me or my family members, I have no qualms in suing any gun-free institution for their policy preventing me from protecting myself, my family, and others, while not providing adequate defenses against such a threat.  I am surprised we don't hear of legal action like this being taken on a more regular basis.

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1 minute ago, person0 said:

I have no qualms in suing any gun-free institution for their policy preventing me from protecting myself, my family, and others, while not providing adequate defenses against such a threat.  

Even the  church? 

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5 minutes ago, person0 said:

On the rare chance that a violent incident should occur that directly affects me or my family members, I have no qualms in suing any gun-free institution for their policy preventing me from protecting myself, my family, and others, while not providing adequate defenses against such a threat.  I am surprised we don't hear of legal action like this being taken on a more regular basis.

That’s because going into a gun-free zone is an assumed risk—no one’s making you be there.

Now, if you were someplace where you (believed) you had to be—a government office, or school; or a church that represents itself as being God’s Only True Church—the issues do potentially get more interesting. 

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