Just_A_Guy

No Guns in Sacrament Meeting—We Mean It This Time!!!

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27 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

When I was 20 I used to think that things like this would change perspective and help us grow and understand one another. Now, I know better. It'll do no such thing.

Perhaps in the aggregate that's true, but I'd like to think there are individuals who will take this as a growth opportunity. I know I've had opportunities to grow in this regard over the last year or so, and I'm not all that special. I bet there are many others, perhaps not the majority but many, who've also grown in compassion for the other side over their doctrinal struggles.

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Just now, Midwest LDS said:

Perhaps in the aggregate that's true, but I'd like to think there are individuals who will take this as a growth opportunity. I know I've had opportunities to grow in this regard over the last year or so, and I'm not all that special. I bet there are many others, perhaps not the majority but many, who've also grown in compassion for the other side over their doctrinal struggles.

 Believe me my friend, nothing would make me happier than being wrong about that!  

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https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/world-thinks-americas-gun-laws-are-crazy-theyre-right/?outputType=amp

I would not be surprised if Latter-day Saints of other countries are baffled by American Latter-day Saints obsession with firearms.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mormon-church-no-guns-church-n1046581

M.

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12 minutes ago, Maureen said:

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/world-thinks-americas-gun-laws-are-crazy-theyre-right/?outputType=amp

I would not be surprised if Latter-day Saints of other countries are baffled by American Latter-day Saints obsession with firearms.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mormon-church-no-guns-church-n1046581

I care little about what non-Americans, LDS or otherwise, think of us.

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37 minutes ago, Maureen said:

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/world-thinks-americas-gun-laws-are-crazy-theyre-right/?outputType=amp

I would not be surprised if Latter-day Saints of other countries are baffled by American Latter-day Saints obsession with firearms.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mormon-church-no-guns-church-n1046581

M.

I too do not care what non Americans think about gun ownership.  They have the wrong of it anyway.

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43 minutes ago, Maureen said:

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/world-thinks-americas-gun-laws-are-crazy-theyre-right/?outputType=amp

I would not be surprised if Latter-day Saints of other countries are baffled by American Latter-day Saints obsession with firearms.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mormon-church-no-guns-church-n1046581

M.

Non-American Latter-day Saints didn’t grow up hearing about ancestors who suffered through Missouri or Nauvoo, or evacuated Salt Lake as an occupying force marched in singing “One-Eyed Riley” (a soldier’s marching song celebrating raping a civilian girl, sodomizing her father and then killing them both), or spent two generations playing cat-and-mouse with federal marshals in Utah as Washington made it a point to re-educate their children.

 

 

 

They’ll learn, one way or another, who their friends are—and aren’t.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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12 hours ago, mirkwood said:

I think there are those who have quietly continued to carry and will continue to do so.  I do not see a lot of agitation going on, and most of those that are, I already have the opinion that they are already fringe members at best.

I feel the same way.  

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13 hours ago, Grunt said:

Some of the groups have been going batty.

My wife sent this meme to me this morning.  She said it is going around in some circles, so I suppose so.

image.thumb.png.79302d10e4da8447decb1221e9cb8524.png

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It was read in our ward.  But after the bishop read the statement he added,"Each of you will have to pray about how you are to apply that."

Huh?

I have to admit that this "administrative rule change" is hard for me to take.  But if I condemn others for promoting gay marriage and abortion and so many other things because their "personal values" trump "Divine counsel" then I cannot let my personal values trump divine counsel.

So, the only question for me to ask is if this counsel was indeed divine and comes from the Lord, rather than a liberal minded "prophet of the day."  I've prayed.  And, yes, it is from the Lord.  No doubt in my mind.  So, I have to accept it and obey it.

Something I picked up earlier in this thread.  I pieced together this interpretation:

Quote

This may very well fulfill our fears -- that psychos or even anti-Mormons (but I repeat myself) will use this as the opening to mass murder a congregation.  And further, that this is the beginning of the winding up of this dispensation.  Saints' blood will need to be spilt by a peace-minded people.  Only through the spilling of much blood can we justify the outpouring of the Spirit to sustain those who survive (or their descendants) to the Millennial era.

Much of the blood spilt during the Joseph Smith period was required to justify the stand of self-defense during the Brigham Young period.

We may go through a parallel storyline as we get closer to the Millennium.

Or this could just be fine and nothing bad will happen.  Who knows?

Edited by Mores

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10 hours ago, Maureen said:

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/world-thinks-americas-gun-laws-are-crazy-theyre-right/?outputType=amp

I would not be surprised if Latter-day Saints of other countries are baffled by American Latter-day Saints obsession with firearms.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mormon-church-no-guns-church-n1046581

M.

attachment.php?attachmentid=6821795&d=15

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11 hours ago, Maureen said:

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/05/world-thinks-americas-gun-laws-are-crazy-theyre-right/?outputType=amp

I would not be surprised if Latter-day Saints of other countries are baffled by American Latter-day Saints obsession with firearms.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mormon-church-no-guns-church-n1046581

M.

Oh no doubt. People who aren't American will never understand the gun culture we have in the states. 

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I have some thoughts about liberty and about firearms as has been the topic of this thread.

The scriptures say that swords will be made into plows in preparation and during the millennium.  I believe this is symbolic of something concerning weapons and peace.  It appears to me that the peace that come from preparations to protect against violence is not quite the same as living in peace under the covenants with G-d.  We are told in scripture that there is a time of war and a time of peace.  And so we stand at a most interesting cross road or threshold between the war between good and evil and the peace of G-d.

Liberty is a culture as @MormonGatorand @Just_A_Guy have pointed out.  But it is a culture that can only exist and survive as a covenant culture loyal to G-d and his laws.  To the core, my atheists friends would disagree - but such disagreement is in ignorance of the foundation of law and justice that liberty must be firmly constructed upon.  The hard truth is that liberty and democracy is not the same thing.  Liberty must rely on a sense that there exist something greater and superior than the intelligence of man and the wisdom of human society.  The rights of liberty and freedom are independent of human impression and can only be realized by divine providence granted through inspired laws and a inspired society that has been taught (educated) in the divine art of loving others more than self.

If there is no greater purpose than self then liberty cannot prosper.  And regardless of the arguments of atheists (those that believe there is no greater intelligence above that of humans capable of governing and maintaining the order of the universe) - without a benolivent and intelligent G-d - liberty cannot and does not exist in the hearts and minds of humans that must compete in a hostile universe to survive. 

Without a higher purpose than to survive and protect one's self, weapons will only lead to destruction.   This is because survival depends on resources necessary to sustain life and despite all the power of any individual - the individual is mortal and will not survive.  So it is that mortal life is not and cannot be sustained and just.  For life to exist there must be sacrifice (which is an act of mercy) which is greater than justice - because justice demands eventual death for life to continue.

Without the mercy of G-d there is no mercy and there is no justice.  If we cannot trust G-d to sustain us in or covenant congregations - then it does not matter if we protect ourselves or not - we will still eventually perish. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 8/29/2019 at 2:21 PM, Lost Boy said:

It makes me sad that there are so many members that think they need to have a gun to feel safe.  I have never ever carried, nor have I ever had the desire to carry.  How many mass shootings have there been?  How many have been stopped by people with a concealed weapon?  Next to zero.

I know right, so sad. It makes me sad also that when an intruder broke into my friends home and threatened his wife and himself (that he would shoot them) that when he put the intruder down with his own gun -- my poor friend -- how he needed a gun to feel safe. Oh the shame for needing a gun to protect family! I am sure your sadness for him just overwhelms him, that he wishes he never had a gun to protect and to be prepared should the need arise to protect his wife and children. The shame.

It makes me sad that this simple mindedness regarding guns (as only dealing with mass shootings) is so prevalent.  How many of the shooting were in "gun free" zones, meaning they can't carry their gun in the building even if they have a concealed permit? School -- yes a gun free zone. The movie theater -- yes, again a gun free zone.

Members have guns for:

1) Hunting (which is food on the table)

2) Protecting

3) Safety

On 8/29/2019 at 2:21 PM, Lost Boy said:

If someone open fires in sacrament meeting, the chance of you hitting an innocent person when trying to shoot the gunman are tremendously high.  Then the next thing that happens is that people won't know if you are part of the mass shooting either.

Police officers deal with the same issue, should they not carry a gun then?

On 8/29/2019 at 2:21 PM, Lost Boy said:

I am not anti-gun.  I don't care if they are in the church or not.  But I feel sad for those who think they need to carry.  It is not a lens through which I would want to view life.

God knows what is going to happen.  If God wants that gunman stopped, that gunman is going to be stopped.

Ya, again, I feel so sad that my friend felt the need to have and carry a gun. Its a shame he views life with such a mentality. His poor family. They must be "sad" to that he was able to protect them.

This is what my father would call -- magical thinking. If God wanted the Lamanites to be stopped, the Nephites really didn't then need to carry their swords, their cimeters, their bows and arrows, their axes, etc... It makes me sad that the Nephites thought they needed these weapons to feel safe.

 

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"And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity."

~Alma 48:16

"We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no effort to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and strive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as unreasonable to expect a remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom."

~Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, p. 131, August 1-10, 1865.

 

"Not only should we have strong spiritual homes, but we should have strong temporal homes. We should avoid bondage by getting out of debt as soon as we can, pay as we go, and live within our incomes. There is wisdom in having on hand a year's supply of food, clothing, fuel (if possible), and in being preparing to defend our families and our possessions and to take care of ourselves. I believe a man should prepare for the worst while working for the best."

~Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 263-264.



"As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave."

~Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, Vol 1, P . 171 - 172, July 31, 1853

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On 8/29/2019 at 3:21 PM, Lost Boy said:

God knows what is going to happen.  If God wants that gunman stopped, that gunman is going to be stopped.

If God wants you to have a home and food, God is more than capable of providing those things.  Where is your faith?

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On 9/3/2019 at 4:25 PM, mirkwood said:

No announcement in our ward.

All I know is that at least our stake president has been giving direction to inform all of our members.  We don't normally receive instruction like this from our stake president unless he's been directed to do it from Area leaders.

We opted not to read the policy in Sacrament meeting, but instead, will be printing it in the bulletin for several weeks and following up with an e-mail.  

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It's not really a good thing to announce this over the internet. This is a perfect example of "Hey, we are sitting ducks", for the potential shooters. Think about it. We should have announced this only for the church goers, we should only announce this secretly among church members. Now, we are sitting ducks. I'm still bringing my smallest piece no matter what, to protect my own family and others of potential dangers anyway.

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Now that the Church policy has made national news I feel other actions should follow. I'm a member of several non-profit organizations and this week I was at a meeting where a letter was read ...warning people who live in East Texas of a current risk. A major law enforcement group sent out letters, warning of people who have been identified as dangerous going to non profits ...trying to be accepted and claiming to be a member. Investigation reveal the "visitor" will be well armed.

This non profit asked members to lock all doors but one during meetings. Assign someone to watch those entering and if a concern is identified call 911.

I would like it if the Church would have common sense guidelines to reduce risk. It is good that, since peace officers can carry, signs can not be posted. I am concerned that this nation wide news story may identify the Church as a target on Sunday.

In Texas if a sign is not present it's not illegal. I never carry, but some have already said they would rather take a chance on discipline than risk there family's safety. Glenn Beck stated he believes people will be afraid to attend a Christian church within 5 years. It is is important that everyone understand nationwide we are rapidly becoming a different country and being nieve is not the best policy. You don't have to Google far to see we do have haters out there. One other Church in my tiny town has 4 unidentified armed persons at every meeting.

😆 Of course if implementation of this is like the policy that class rooms for youth and primary have windows in the doors, I will not be alive to see it implemented. PFR in our area only do what is necessary to have services due to budget restraints.

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Using the comparisons of the UK to the US is uninformed or dishonest.

If you take away the gun crimes in cities such as Chicago (that ban firearms), the US is one of the safest countries in the world much safer than the UK. Almost all gun crimes in the US are in "gun free" cities. A prophet once said statistics are worse than lies. Be careful 🙂

Edited by john4truth
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11 hours ago, john4truth said:

I am concerned that this nation wide news story may identify the Church as a target on Sunday.

Bad guys intent on killing people have no shortage of gun-free zones from which to choose.  It's not like they're sitting around wishing to hear about one.

11 hours ago, john4truth said:

If you take away the gun crimes in cities such as Chicago (that ban firearms), the US is one of the safest countries in the world much safer than the UK. Almost all gun crimes in the US are in "gun free" cities.

I know this is (the claim that the US is one of the safest if you took out Chicago and a few others) a popular meme floating around these years, but do you have a source?  Earlier in the thread, someone challenged it, but nobody has produced a source.  I'm not sure it's true at all.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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