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KScience
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In my emails I came across the church media releases urging us to invite people to church; and it made me wonder about the cultural differences which make this easier/ more challenging in different parts of the world.

After hearing a discussion on the radio about the UK being a growing secularist society and a debate about how this affected laws/morals etc I looked at the Office of National Statistics and thought about the people I associate with.

Key data:

  • In 2011, there were 4.1 million fewer people reporting as Christian (from 72 per cent to 59 per cent of the population), 6.4 million more people reporting no religion (from 15 per cent to 25 per cent)
  • Christians had the oldest age profile of the main religious groups. Over one in five Christians (22 per cent) were aged 65 and over. People with no religion had a younger age profile than the population as a whole in 2011. Four in ten people with no religion (39 per cent) were aged under 25 and over four in five (82 per cent) were aged under 50

Thinking about people I associate with at work I am the only church goer and within my wider friendship group (outside of church members) I only know one other person that attends regularly and one other that has spoken about a general belief in God. If I bring up church in general conversation e.g. how was your weekend/ what you up to this weekend  my work colleagues are genuinely curious and many have said that I am the only person I know who goes to church. Some have even said they are baffled how I can believe in God as I am so  "intellectual".  My last job was in a church school (Church of England) and some parents and staff were uncomfortable with the local church's involvement (usually easter & christmas).  

I really think that I would appreciate being able to talk more widely about religious themes with people of all faiths.  Having a very small group to discuss with in our ward doesn't help.  Especially as in RS and SS its almost as if no one has read the material in preparation and so much time is spent just outlining what has been read so it does not feel like we actually get to discuss and explore the content rather than just describe events or policies.

So I guess I am wondering is this a cultural issue?  Am I expecting too much by expecting to have conversations along spiritual lines in everyday life? What are your experiences of discussing spiritual/religious issues?

 

 

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21 minutes ago, KScience said:

After hearing a discussion on the radio about the UK being a growing secularist society and a debate about how this affected laws/morals etc

My lovely wife enjoys watching a long-running British TV series about a small fictitious British county with an astronomically high murder rate, far outstripping even places like Beirut or Liberia. I believe it's called Midsomer. I have watched several episodes with her, and have been dismayed to see that atheism is held in high regard (the principle character proudly characterizes himself an atheist) while religiosity is uniformly dismissed as evil and hypocritical, or at best something for the foolish and weak-minded. Given how many of the Church's converts came from the British Isles in the early years of the Restoration, it's a sad thing to see.

Edited by Vort
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2 hours ago, Vort said:

My lovely wife enjoys watching a long-running British TV series about a small fictitious British county with an astronomically high murder rate, far outstripping even places like Beirut or Liberia. I believe it's called Midsomer.

Midsomer Murders?

My family has a bit of a running joke about why anybody would live in many TV settings given their murder rate. And for some long-running shows, we wonder how the town/village/whatever still exists, given how many people have already died in the originally small community. We place Midsomer mid to low in the murder rate rankings because they have a whole county, as opposed to other shows set in one particular town. But it definitely works out higher than shows set in Miami or the greater DC area.

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Guest MormonGator
20 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

My family has a bit of a running joke about why anybody would live in many TV settings given their murder rate. 

If Angela Lansbury moves to your town, get out of there. Now. 

 

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Guest MormonGator
3 hours ago, KScience said:

Thinking about people I associate with at work I am the only church goer and within my wider friendship group (outside of church members)

I know what you mean to some degree. The world is changing, and Europe has already changed. The dechristianization of Europe has been talked about for decades now. It's easy for Americans to shake our heads over it, but we didn't live through two world wars and the French Revolution, so....

Most of my good friends (with a few exceptions) are agnostic or nominally religious. They support me being LDS but don't talk about. When a news story comes up about the church they'll ask me questions about this or that. That's about as far as it gets. I'm certainly no "intellectual" so no one was surprised when I joined the church because of that, but they were surprised because I had so many habits that weren't church approved. They also commented that I'll "have to shave/cut my hair/burn off my tattoos" so my "LDS phase" won't last! 

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I wonder if attending a boarding school where religious services are compulsory tends to associated with loss of faith. I have quite a few friends from the uk who were sent to boarding schools and who loath religion. These people really resented attending religious services with the teaching staff who were observed to be less than Christ-like on a regular basis. The Queen is the Head of the Church of England and thus Anglicanism is the state religion. I can imagine that a state religion would be rather off putting if you consider the usual conduct of those who rise to power.

I also have a young friend of Chinese descent who is now an atheist and was treated badly by the school’s religious instructors. Apparently the priests did not believe that someone of Chinese descent could be Catholic. I had toys to give away and I asked a Catholic friend if I could take them to the local parish. My Catholic  friend explained that I needed to find a female volunteer as priests can not be expected to care about children. My friend was remarkably accepting and forthcoming about how unpleasant her religious leaders were to young people.

If we behave badly we risk alienating others and bring our faith into disrepute. 

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15 hours ago, KScience said:

So I guess I am wondering is this a cultural issue?  Am I expecting too much by expecting to have conversations along spiritual lines in everyday life? What are your experiences of discussing spiritual/religious issues?

In my opinion, this is a perspective issue.  See below.

 

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On 8/26/2019 at 4:07 PM, KScience said:

ISo I guess I am wondering is this a cultural issue?  Am I expecting too much by expecting to have conversations along spiritual lines in everyday life? What are your experiences of discussing spiritual/religious issues?

I am a lifelong member (so far - my life is not over yet – though I am quite senior).  I have never found (yet) anything quite so wonderful, marvelous, profound, inspiring and complete as the Laws, Ordinances and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I have had a long prosperous career as a software engineer in military defense systems and industrial automation, robotics and artificial intelligence.

Like you I live in two very different worlds (cultures).  One being secular the other being religious.  I am very interested in both science and religion.  I love studying nuances in science (like quantum gravity and time distortions) as well as religion (like our profound concept of Agency as applied to traditional religious notions of free will versus determinism.)

My experience seem to be somewhat different than yours.  I find that the secular (scientific) world is far more open to ideas, concepts and applications of religion than is the religious community open to scientific discoveries that do not correlate well with their traditional religious paradigms.

I have been asked on occasions how I can believe in solid scientific principles and remain a faithful Latter-day Saint.  Not near as often, I have been asked how I can succeed in science and maintain a belief in G-d and "organized religion".  However, in either case I find the religious question pointed toward science more intended to exclude me and my ideas from their culture.  Whereas the scientific question concerning G-d and religion more open and inclusive to understanding the process I employed to obtain a conclusion.

 

The Traveler

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21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I find that the secular (scientific) world is far more open to ideas, concepts and applications of religion than is the religious community open to scientific discoveries that do not correlate well with their traditional religious paradigms.

If I'm honest, I must admit to have found the same throughout my life. But it's not nearly as stark today. Many of the fervently religious are nevertheless open and amenable to scientific ideas, even things such as evolution. Meanwhile, the secular world (I crossed out "scientific", because the vast majority are no such thing) has become increasingly intolerant of any expression of devotion or faith. Given the implicit confidence such non-scientific secularists place in any "science" that seems to bolster their political and social views, the irony is indeed palpable.

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4 minutes ago, Vort said:

If I'm honest, I must admit to have found the same throughout my life. But it's not nearly as stark today. Many of the fervently religious are nevertheless open and amenable to scientific ideas, even things such as evolution. Meanwhile, the secular world (I crossed out "scientific", because the vast majority are no such thing) has become increasingly intolerant of any expression of devotion or faith. Given the implicit confidence such non-scientific secularists place in any "science" that seems to bolster their political and social views, the irony is indeed palpable.

I thank you for your input.  It reminded me that I often divide the secular world into two factions that I would label as scientific and the other as pseudo scientific.  Always the pseudo scientific faction has ulterior motives (very often political).  Likewise I divide the religious world into two factions that I would label as religious and pseudo religious.  Again the pseudo religious has a specific agenda that is not religious at all.  In general, I find the pseudo cultures of both secular and religious cultures as concluded, know-it-all and uninterested in learning or considering anything outside their comfort paradigm. 

I have posted before that the scientific definition of intelligence is the proclivity to learn and change behavior.  With this definition the pseudo cultures are the antithesis of intelligence - which is, in essence, the foundation of ignorance. 

 

The Traveler

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On 8/26/2019 at 4:27 PM, Vort said:

My lovely wife enjoys watching a long-running British TV series about a small fictitious British county with an astronomically high murder rate, far outstripping even places like Beirut or Liberia. I believe it's called Midsomer. I have watched several episodes with her, and have been dismayed to see that atheism is held in high regard (the principle character proudly characterizes himself an atheist) while religiosity is uniformly dismissed as evil and hypocritical, or at best something for the foolish and weak-minded. Given how many of the Church's converts came from the British Isles in the early years of the Restoration, it's a sad thing to see.

Have you tried the Father Brown series, based on the Chesterton character?  I doubt Chesterton would be thrilled with it, but it’s . . . not terrible, as I recall.  

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5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Have you tried the Father Brown series, based on the Chesterton character?  I doubt Chesterton would be thrilled with it, but it’s . . . not terrible, as I recall.  

Was that the one starring Mr. Weasley? My wife watched that one, too. As I recall, she enjoyed it, but it wasn't among her favorites. She likes British dead body series that show lots of countryside and such.

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Just now, Vort said:

Was that the one starring Mr. Weasley? My wife watched that one, too. As I recall, she enjoyed it, but it wasn't among her favorites. She likes British dead body series that show lots of countryside and such.

That was the one.  :) 

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Guest MormonGator
4 hours ago, Vort said:

. Many of the fervently religious are nevertheless open and amenable to scientific ideas, even things such as evolution. 

I  could not agree with you more on this! Now, belief in evolution is becoming common place in many religions and the real science deniers are hardcore leftists. Denying gender differences, denying vaccines, claiming organic/GMO food is safer than regular food,  claiming global warming will kill all us in 2025....

Edited by MormonGator
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I tend to put “pseudo intellectualism” up there with pride and wickedness.

Drives me crazy when so called intelligent people make statements like, “How can you believe in God? You are so intellectual...”

Believe it or not, you can have a high IQ and also believe in God and have some humility.

What great accomplishments has prideful mankind achieved compared to the creation of life and the Universe?

Idiots.

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Abraham 3:19

Edited by mikbone
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6 hours ago, mikbone said:

I tend to put “pseudo intellectualism” up there with pride and wickedness.

Drives me crazy when so called intelligent people make statements like, “How can you believe in God? You are so intellectual...”

Believe it or not, you can have a high IQ and also believe in God and have some humility.

 

My favorite arguments with intellectuals that do not believe in G-d is that given the size (probabilities of evolution) of our universe is that if G-d does not yet exist that it is inevitable that eventually a G-d or G-ds will evolve.  Thus it is a logical conundrum and paradox to believe in evolution and not to believe that intelligence will inevitably evolve capable of reverse engineering anything that has taken place - including the Big Bang.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/30/2019 at 9:34 AM, mikbone said:

I tend to put “pseudo intellectualism” up there with pride and wickedness.

Drives me crazy when so called intelligent people make statements like, “How can you believe in God? You are so intellectual...”

I enjoyed Jordan Peterson's Biblical series.  Note - it's not for everyone - it's a secular reading of the Bible tied to overall secularist history of human existence, so if you are not secure in your faith testimony it might not be for you.

The debate between Peterson and Sam Harris on the topic is also fun in the same vein.

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