Backroads

Family and the new firearm prohibition

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On 8/27/2019 at 4:27 PM, Fether said:

Not particularly a calming movie to watch when discussing this topic. Additionally, it sets high expectations for God’s hand to be seen in a specific way in every scenario. I do not believe for one second that God will stop every gun man that enters any Latter-day Saint chapel.

I get uncomfortable when we talk about miracles like that as being proof that’s God loves us and watches us. It suggests that when he doesn’t prevent tragedy that he isn’t there and he doesn’t love the people that were hurt.

I read a really good book a few years ago called Amish Grace, and I believe there was a movie/PBS special based on the story of a young gunman who terrorized an Amish school and how the community responded. It may offer some perspective. There's a lot to learn from the Amish.

Also, this policy allows for current law enforcement to carry a concealed weapon. I remember seeing a new police officer flash his gun at some friends in the YSA ward (by lifting up his shirt just enough to show them, didn't even take it out of the holster) and seeing it made me uncomfortable, even though I knew he would not use it unless absolutely necessary. So, if you want guns in church, convert more cops, I guess.

The Lord blesses us for our obedience.

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8 hours ago, seashmore said:

I read a really good book a few years ago called Amish Grace, and I believe there was a movie/PBS special based on the story of a young gunman who terrorized an Amish school and how the community responded. It may offer some perspective. There's a lot to learn from the Amish.

Also, this policy allows for current law enforcement to carry a concealed weapon. I remember seeing a new police officer flash his gun at some friends in the YSA ward (by lifting up his shirt just enough to show them, didn't even take it out of the holster) and seeing it made me uncomfortable, even though I knew he would not use it unless absolutely necessary. So, if you want guns in church, convert more cops, I guess.

The Lord blesses us for our obedience.

Oh, this policy doesn’t bother me at all. I was just responding to the idea that God will put up a protective shield around every Latter-day Saint that is ever found in a shooter situation.

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9 hours ago, seashmore said:

I read a really good book a few years ago called Amish Grace, and I believe there was a movie/PBS special based on the story of a young gunman who terrorized an Amish school and how the community responded. It may offer some perspective. There's a lot to learn from the Amish.

Yes.  Great General Conference talk in 2007 by James E. Faust that mentions it: The Healing Power of Forgiveness.  It's sort of off the topic of using force to defend yourself, but instead focuses on what to do after the harm has been done.

Quote

A 32-year-old milk truck driver lived with his family in their Nickel Mines community. He was not Amish, but his pickup route took him to many Amish dairy farms, where he became known as the quiet milkman. Last October he suddenly lost all reason and control. In his tormented mind he blamed God for the death of his first child and some unsubstantiated memories. He stormed into the Amish school without any provocation, released the boys and adults, and tied up the 10 girls. He shot the girls, killing five and wounding five. Then he took his own life.

This shocking violence caused great anguish among the Amish but no anger. There was hurt but no hate. Their forgiveness was immediate. Collectively they began to reach out to the milkman’s suffering family. As the milkman’s family gathered in his home the day after the shootings, an Amish neighbor came over, wrapped his arms around the father of the dead gunman, and said, “We will forgive you.”1 Amish leaders visited the milkman’s wife and children to extend their sympathy, their forgiveness, their help, and their love. About half of the mourners at the milkman’s funeral were Amish. In turn, the Amish invited the milkman’s family to attend the funeral services of the girls who had been killed. A remarkable peace settled on the Amish as their faith sustained them during this crisis.

One local resident very eloquently summed up the aftermath of this tragedy when he said, “We were all speaking the same language, and not just English, but a language of caring, a language of community, [and] a language of service. And, yes, a language of forgiveness.”2 It was an amazing outpouring of their complete faith in the Lord’s teachings in the Sermon on the Mount: “Do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.”

We can learn a lot from the Amish, but we can't learn everything.  They're like the people of Ammon who refuse to take up arms, but without the violent history from which they are atoning. 

AmishAmerica.com - do Amish use guns?

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Amish will not bear arms against others, but they do use firearms for hunting and other purposes.  The Amish belief in nonresistance mean Amish will not serve in the military, law enforcement, or in any other position that requires them to use firearms against other people.

 

We LDS get to resist evil.  It's our duty, when the call arises, to "take up arms to defend ourselves, and our wives, and children, and our lands."

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On 8/26/2019 at 11:34 PM, Backroads said:

Husband isn't taking the new prohibition announcement well. He says he will happily do Come Follow Me and the like at home but doesn't want him, me, and the kids attending church services.

Just... Support and comfort, please.

Both you and your husband are having emotional responses and not rational responses.

I am a husband and from years and years of trying to fight emotional responses from a wife, I can testify that you do not have a chance of fighting the emotion with logic.

I can give you plenty of logical reasons for still attending church.  They won't work on him.

Emotion can be dealt with, but there is much more of a challenge.  

My suggestion is that you love your husband.  Don't try and reason with him.  Just let him know that you need to attend church and that your kids need to be there.  Let him know that Heavenly Father wants you and the kids at church and that you truly feel that is the right thing to do.  You can even appeal that you would feel even safer if he were there, but you are going regardless.

 

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Thanks for your thoughts. I've felt more at peace the past couple of days. Also took advantage of the prayer request board on a teacher forum. Will try to get to the temple in the next few days. I also had Husband give me a blessing of comfort.

We still have not reached an agreement, so there is that underwhelming update. Facts, feelings, and testimonies have been shared.

 

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Here is what is messed up.  I had never in my near 50 years of existence even considered taking a gun to church until all of this came out.  I have never once felt that I was in danger at church.  Not even in the slightest.  I still don't have any fear even in the slightest going to church without a gun.

It is a messed up world where people can't feel safe at church without a gun.  It seems like it nearly borders on a mental disorder.

Tens of thousands of people die in automobile crashes each year, yet we still drive most every day.  Why?  It is far more dangerous than going to church without a gun.  Yet we still do it.  We do it because we rationalize that fear away.  You kind of have to do the same with guns and church.

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10 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Here is what is messed up.  I had never in my near 50 years of existence even considered taking a gun to church until all of this came out.  I have never once felt that I was in danger at church.  Not even in the slightest.  I still don't have any fear even in the slightest going to church without a gun.

It is a messed up world where people can't feel safe at church without a gun.  It seems like it nearly borders on a mental disorder.

Tens of thousands of people die in automobile crashes each year, yet we still drive most every day.  Why?  It is far more dangerous than going to church without a gun.  Yet we still do it.  We do it because we rationalize that fear away.  You kind of have to do the same with guns and church.

Studies have showed that people in general tend to be poor judges of risk.  The more we see it the more we hear about it the greater risk we think it is.  However as a general rule something is not news worthy unless it is unusual or abnormal in some way.  Thus we hear about the unusual or abnormal more... leading us to think it is more usual or normal then it really is

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15 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

It is a messed up world where people can't feel safe at church without a gun.  It seems like it nearly borders on a mental disorder.

Is this a messed up world where people can't feel safe at home without a gun?  How about schools?  Playgrounds?  Shopping malls?  We should feel safe everywhere.  So why allow guns anywhere?  We should just do away with the second amendment.  Get rid of all guns in the world.  That will do it.

But thank you for your psychological analysis, Herr Doktor.

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On 1/6/2020 at 10:45 PM, Lost Boy said:

Here is what is messed up.  I had never in my near 50 years of existence even considered taking a gun to church until all of this came out.  I have never once felt that I was in danger at church.  Not even in the slightest.  I still don't have any fear even in the slightest going to church without a gun.

It is a messed up world where people can't feel safe at church without a gun.  It seems like it nearly borders on a mental disorder.

Tens of thousands of people die in automobile crashes each year, yet we still drive most every day.  Why?  It is far more dangerous than going to church without a gun.  Yet we still do it.  We do it because we rationalize that fear away.  You kind of have to do the same with guns and church.

The difference between driving a car and going without a firearm is this - you have control over the car.  Giving up your chosen method of protection is giving away control of your safety.  And no, people who chose firearms as a means of protection don't just bring firearms to church.  They bring them everywhere, including in their cars.

America is privileged to live in a country where you feel safe anywhere.  I grew up in the Philippines.  I didn't grow up with that luxury.  Anyway, it is the height of privilege to think I don't need to protect myself because someone else will put their lives at risk to protect me.  It's much more privileged than the person who leaves the cleaning of their toilets to the maid.

Edited by anatess2

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9 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The difference between driving a car and going without a firearm is this - you have control over the car.  Giving up your chosen method of protection is giving away control of your safety.  And no, people who chose firearms as a means of protection don't just bring firearms to church.  They bring them everywhere, including in their cars.

America is privileged to live in a country where you feel safe anywhere.  I grew up in the Philippines.  I didn't grow up with that luxury.  Anyway, it is the height of privilege to think I don't need to protect myself because someone else will put their lives at risk to protect me.  It's much more privileged than the person who leaves the cleaning of their toilets to the maid.

You may have control of your car, but you don't have control of other people's cars.  I got T-boned by a kid playing on his cell phone that blew a light that had been red for more than 5 seconds.  Drunk drivers will cross medians and take out people head on.  Tires can pop and cause cars to go off the road.  Just because you are in control doesn't mean others aren't a huge danger to you.

And for safe living I feel far safer walking around Japan than I do the US.  And no I don't feel safe anywhere in the US.  There are certain parts of Detroit/Chicago that I don't care to go to.  I feel safe around my city, but there are certain places in the US that are not safe.

Someone having a gun a church does not make me feel safer.

So if some people feel less safe at church if someone has a gun and some feel safer?  How do you resolve this?

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On 1/6/2020 at 8:45 PM, Lost Boy said:

It is a messed up world where people can't feel safe at church without a gun.

Hooo-boy.  Comments like this raise my hackles a bit.  If being in possession of a firearm helps you "feel safe", you might want to do some serious self-reflection about why you carry.  Firearms aren't magic talismans, they don't ward off evil.  They are not like strong gates and heavy doors with good locks, they don't keep bad guys away.

If you want to "feel safe", spend 95% of your effort trying to not be around dangerous folks in the first place, deterring, avoiding, evading unsafe people and situations.  Spend the last 5% preparing to respond should the unsafe events show up.

Firearms are tools which let you respond to deadly situations that found you, despite your best efforts.  I don't feel more or less safe with or without a gun.  I am better equipped to respond to certain extreme unsafe situations with a firearm.

3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

So if some people feel less safe at church if someone has a gun and some feel safer?  How do you resolve this?

You resolve it by considering the nature of feelings, and learning how to be mature enough to know what they're good for, and what they're not good for.  Feeling safe or unsafe may or may not have the slightest thing to do with whether you are actually safe or unsafe.

I like asking a question: Depending on your state's conceal carry laws, you are constantly surrounded by armed citizens.  A certain number out of every 100 random citizens you meet in any given day, are armed.  At gas stations, supermarkets, parks and streets, restaurants, businesses, many hospitals and government buildings and in churches.   And it's been that way for decades.  Here in Colorado, over 10% of CO citizens have a conceal carry permit.   My questions:  If this is news to you, did your feelings on safety change?  If yes, then why are you putting so much emphasis on your feelings, since just becoming aware of something that has existed for a long time changes them?  Isn't it better to think in terms of facts and probabilities and likelihoods and whatnot?

Edited by NeuroTypical

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12 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

And no I don't feel safe anywhere in the US... I feel safe around my city, but there are certain places in the US that are not safe.

:confused::confused:

Edited by SilentOne
Removing emoticon accidentally added on tablet

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4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You may have control of your car, but you don't have control of other people's cars.  I got T-boned by a kid playing on his cell phone that blew a light that had been red for more than 5 seconds.  Drunk drivers will cross medians and take out people head on.  Tires can pop and cause cars to go off the road.  Just because you are in control doesn't mean others aren't a huge danger to you.

Yes.  You can't control other people.  But you can control how you react to it.  Your reaction to it is limited if you're just a passenger in the car instead of the driver.  Being the passenger, you are completely reliant on the ability of the driver to take you out of danger.

 

4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

And for safe living I feel far safer walking around Japan than I do the US.  And no I don't feel safe anywhere in the US.  There are certain parts of Detroit/Chicago that I don't care to go to.  I feel safe around my city, but there are certain places in the US that are not safe.

Someone having a gun a church does not make me feel safer.

So if some people feel less safe at church if someone has a gun and some feel safer?  How do you resolve this?

So... because you don't feel safe anywhere, you're going to... leave the responsibility of your protection to somebody else?

And... because a CONCEALED firearm scares you, you're going to make other people who prefer to take the responsibility of their safety upon themselves and make them rely on other people (of course, not you) for their protection?

It's really easy to resolve the issue.  If you're scared of firearms, go to the gun range and fire a few rounds.

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5 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

You may have control of your car, but you don't have control of other people's cars.

You'd be surprised (apparently) just how much control you have over whether or not other drivers can harm you.  Go take an anti-terrorist driving class (no idea where you find such a thing - I got mine for free while working as a driver for a company contracted to the US Department of State at the US Embassy in Moscow, Russia).  Most people won't like this claim, but in the vast majority of cases, you can control whether or not you get hit by an idiot.  It requires far more education than most people get, and far more attention and awareness than most people are willing to give while driving.

And anyway, it's a lot of fun - you get to throw a car around in ways you didn't know you could throw a car around.  (Make sure it's not your car - wear and tear during the class / practice is hard.)

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45 minutes ago, zil said:

Go take an anti-terrorist driving class (no idea where you find such a thing - I got mine for free while working as a driver for a company contracted to the US Department of State at the US Embassy in Moscow, Russia). 

Ok... I'm officially in awe of you.  Could I get your autograph?

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21 minutes ago, Mores said:

Ok... I'm officially in awe of you.  Could I get your autograph?

Fluke of time and place, dude, nothing more.  But it really was fun.  We took a car paid for by your tax dollars (literally) - it was a Chevy, I forget the model, some boxy 4-door sedan (but the plate number was D 004 423, if you're wondering) - and had great fun.  If you hit the brakes when the instructor had told you not to hit the brakes, he punched you in the leg (fortunately, I followed instructions).  We cooled the car off in between practice sessions by driving in circles, in reverse, using only mirrors - you don't look over your shoulders when going in reverse, you use your mirrors.

Classroom instruction was interesting too.  The only disappointing bit was that he couldn't teach us anything which was considered use of lethal force (found this out when I asked about a maneuver I'd read about in a spy novel) - not even to comment on it further.

The instructor claimed he could jump one of our school buses sideways, but didn't recommend any of us use the bus try that or anything else we were taught. :(  Just imagine a school bus doing a J turn - that would be totally cool. :crackup:

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2 hours ago, zil said:

Just imagine a school bus doing a J turn - that would be totally cool. :crackup:

I think I saw that in a Bruce Willis movie once.  :)

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18 hours ago, zil said:

Fluke of time and place, dude, nothing more.  But it really was fun.  We took a car paid for by your tax dollars (literally) -  We cooled the car off in between practice sessions by driving in circles, in reverse, using only mirrors - you don't look over your shoulders when going in reverse, you use your mirrors.

The amount of taxes they take off my paycheck... they should be able to afford you rear cameras and all around sensors. :clown:

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25 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The amount of taxes they take off my paycheck... they should be able to afford you rear cameras and all around sensors. :clown:

Erm, it was the early 1990s, and staring down at a video screen is far worse, in my opinion, than keeping your eyes up.  Sensors weren't needed; there was nothing anywhere near us to hit.

Edited by zil

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5 minutes ago, zil said:

Erm, it was the early 1990s, and staring down at a video screen is far worse, in my opinion, than keeping your eyes up.  Sensors weren't needed; there was nothing anywhere near us to hit.

It would be expensive in the 1990's but the tech was present.  The amount they take off my taxes can afford you that piece of tech in 1990 (except I wasn't in the US to be taxed then...). :)

 

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30 minutes ago, zil said:

Erm, it was the early 1990s, and staring down at a video screen is far worse, in my opinion, than keeping your eyes up.  Sensors weren't needed; there was nothing anywhere near us to hit.

And, by the way, it would be sooo awesome if this incident is featured in your new spy novel... at least I hope you're writing a spy novel.

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