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mikbone

Figurative vs Literal

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On 9/6/2019 at 4:43 AM, mikbone said:

Is it ok to believe that the Fall of Adam or that the Book of Mormon narratives are just stories that God has revealed or should we perceive these accounts as actual events that occurred to real people? And does it matter?

Unless the Book of Mormon is real, it doesn’t make sense to believe anything it says. 

Same with Adam and Eve. I could make up some sort of value system, and populate it with made up characters myself. It would mean nothing unless I could sell it and gather believers to my system. Some people have stated to me that the Bible is totally made up by people to obtain some sort of control over the gullible. So, in order to contradict this sort of thing, the people, places and events in the Bible must be largely true. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense. Like Mark Twain said, you can’t pray a lie, and you cannot believe in one either.  Not really  

For us believers, the Spirit has testified these things are true.  If it were otherwise, there would be no Spirit.  And there would be no believers. 

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My non-member friend said to me 10 yrs ago..."The Church is as real as you want it to be."

Its not a negative thing because he ended up marrying a member girl and they are raising a family in the church, but it seems like as more time goes by we are realizing that statement to hold more weight.

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2 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

My non-member friend said to me 10 yrs ago..."The Church is as real as you want it to be."

Wow! Just like Santa Claus!

To many in the Star Wars generation, The Force is just like The Priesthood. I suppose that's "as real as you want it to be", too.

Others of us prefer to keep our reality separate from our fantasy. A quaint, old-fashioned notion, I admit.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Wow! Just like Santa Claus!

To many in the Star Wars generation, The Force is just like The Priesthood. I suppose that's "as real as you want it to be", too.

Others of us prefer to keep our reality separate from our fantasy. A quaint, old-fashioned notion, I admit.

You mean to tell me that you spoke to both Santa Clause and Jesus?! Wow! I need to get on your level.

 

PP: There is a place for everyone in Christs church. 

Vort: There is a place for everyone who makes and keeps divine covenants under restored Priesthood authority in Christs church. 

PP: Is that what Jesus told you? 

Vort: Yup

 

 

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9 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

You mean to tell me that you spoke to both Santa Clause and Jesus?! Wow! I need to get on your level.

Possibly, but you seem to have missed what I wrote:

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Others of us prefer to keep our reality separate from our fantasy. A quaint, old-fashioned notion, I admit.

Jesus is real. Ask your parents about Santa.

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On 9/6/2019 at 5:43 AM, mikbone said:

Is it ok to believe that the Fall of Adam or that the Book of Mormon narratives are just stories that God has revealed or should we perceive these accounts as actual events that occurred to real people? And does it matter?

Adam and Eve

Personally, I do not find it "OK" to believe the Fall of Adam and Eve to be figurative. If I assume, believe, Adam and Eve's fall were figurative then I also must believe Christ's atonement is figurative. These two events are without question connected, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

We know that "die" here is both physical and spiritual death. The literal events of Adam and Eve is the reason we can believe in the "literal" events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In order to accept the literal events of Jesus Christ's atonement I must accept that "death" did not exist with the sons and daughters of God. Otherwise, Adam is not the reason we "all die," and therefore, Christ is unable to be the reason we "all live" or are "made alive."

The figurative representation of Adam simply being an evolved primate (despite the First Presidency proclamation stating otherwise) means that Adam was already "mortal." If Adam was already mortal than death (physical and spiritual) was not because of Adam and this scripture becomes obsolete--false. If Adam was already "mortal" than sin was already upon us, and our second Article of Faith becomes meaningless. Adam was simply the offspring of someone else who was corruptible.

The Book of Mormon

These are actual events from actual people. There is no other way around it. I think it humorous when someone claiming intelligence thinks any current scientific evidence disproves the Book of Mormon. That we think the "very limited" scientific facts we have somehow explain the whole millennia and more of a people who once existed on the American continent. I mean look for how long our natural man believed the Mayans to be such a small population, and then new research and science allows a simple minded statement of fact to become obsolete once more as they can see a bigger picture. If one nation was much larger, how many other cities were much larger? But hey, when a scientific researcher (with limited evidence, a sum of a great whole) says something is not so, or something couldn't be, it amazes me how quickly people jump on board stating it as fact -- and then -- well, not so much. Science has made many a human very arrogant in their suppositions. When they are learned they think they are wise.

Personally, I am not one that believes all the Jaredites perished. There easily could have been Jaredites who traveled like Nephites who traveled up North in boats. Just look at how people treat the Book of Mormon that represents a people who were part of a great whole, but have no record from the original resources.

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23 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Adam and Eve

Personally, I do not find it "OK" to believe the Fall of Adam and Eve to be figurative. If I assume, believe, Adam and Eve's fall were figurative then I also must believe Christ's atonement is figurative. These two events are without question connected, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

We know that "die" here is both physical and spiritual death. The literal events of Adam and Eve is the reason we can believe in the "literal" events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In order to accept the literal events of Jesus Christ's atonement I must accept that "death" did not exist with the sons and daughters of God. Otherwise, Adam is not the reason we "all die," and therefore, Christ is unable to be the reason we "all live" or are "made alive."

The figurative representation of Adam simply being an evolved primate (despite the First Presidency proclamation stating otherwise) means that Adam was already "mortal." If Adam was already mortal than death (physical and spiritual) was not because of Adam and this scripture becomes obsolete--false. If Adam was already "mortal" than sin was already upon us, and our second Article of Faith becomes meaningless. Adam was simply the offspring of someone else who was corruptible.

The Book of Mormon

These are actual events from actual people. There is no other way around it. I think it humorous when someone claiming intelligence thinks any current scientific evidence disproves the Book of Mormon. That we think the "very limited" scientific facts we have somehow explain the whole millennia and more of a people who once existed on the American continent. I mean look for how long our natural man believed the Mayans to be such a small population, and then new research and science allows a simple minded statement of fact to become obsolete once more as they can see a bigger picture. If one nation was much larger, how many other cities were much larger? But hey, when a scientific researcher (with limited evidence, a sum of a great whole) says something is not so, or something couldn't be, it amazes me how quickly people jump on board stating it as fact -- and then -- well, not so much. Science has made many a human very arrogant in their suppositions. When they are learned they think they are wise.

Personally, I am not one that believes all the Jaredites perished. There easily could have been Jaredites who traveled like Nephites who traveled up North in boats. Just look at how people treat the Book of Mormon that represents a people who were part of a great whole, but have no record from the original resources.

If you see critics talk about the Book of Mormon, they will cry about how there is NO archeological evidence.

But... If you say nothing of the bom and listen to archeologists talk about archeological discoveries in South America, they will say that the Amazon is such a huge mystery. Joe Rogan  interviews an archeologist that spend a good portion of the time talking about how  we have only recently discovered how incredibly advanced the ancient South Americans were in agriculture in a seemingly impossible place to grow crops.  and how we have no idea what is underneath the Amazon Rainforest. Only recently are Entire cities have been discovered buried next to popular tourist attractions. 

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22 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Unless the Book of Mormon is real, it doesn’t make sense to believe anything it says. 

Same with Adam and Eve. I could make up some sort of value system, and populate it with made up characters myself. It would mean nothing unless I could sell it and gather believers to my system. Some people have stated to me that the Bible is totally made up by people to obtain some sort of control over the gullible. So, in order to contradict this sort of thing, the people, places and events in the Bible must be largely true. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense. Like Mark Twain said, you can’t pray a lie, and you cannot believe in one either.  Not really  

For us believers, the Spirit has testified these things are true.  If it were otherwise, there would be no Spirit.  And there would be no believers. 

I’ll quote myself to elaborate. 

Obviously there are problems with both the Book of Mormon and the Biblical narratives. 

Aside from the supposed anachronisms in the B of M (the list is getting shorter) there is also the problem of how did the Lamanites and Nephites migrate?  JS stated that the landing was near Valparaiso, Chile. That would seemingly place most of the events in the B of M in SA. The early Mormons adopted a big view of where things took place, assuming the narrow neck of land was the Isthmus of Panama. But this can’t be true, because the isthmus is not passable. I discovered this from my uncle who surveyed the Pan American highway. The highway ends in Panama and continues in SA after a boat ride. So B of M events in this area are impossible.  That leaves SA as the main area of events, leaving North America the recipient of the northern migrations mentioned in the text. But not the center of events. Of course JS could be wrong in his opinions of the landfall.  No wonder there is scant archeological evidence. We don’t even know where to look. Plus, given the terrain of NA, we have only scratched the surface of places to look..

Adam and Eve are also problematic. How do we explain pre Adamites?  Dinosaurs, sabretooth tigers etc etc?  Assuming the Biblical narrative is true, and I believe it is, there is a lot of explaining to do!

so it comes down to faith. Only the Spirit can tell us the truth. We will discover all truth when the veil is lifted. 

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3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

so it comes down to faith. Only the Spirit can tell us the truth. We will discover all truth when the veil is lifted. 

Vort can learn a lesson from your post because he thinks Jesus talks to him when in fact its the spirit that testifies of Jesus.

 

5 hours ago, Vort said:

Jesus is real. 

 You believe in Jesus so to you he is real, same goes for the 33% of Christians in this world. The other 67% of the world cannot be convinced that Jesus was a real person so to them he is not real. As a Christian myself I cannot convince anyone that Jesus was real, let alone his divinity, I can only tell them that I have faith and I believe in him and hopefully they will become believers too.

I taught hundreds of people on my mission in Japan and only baptized five, If Jesus was real I would had have more resources other then just two biased books (Bible/BKofM) to proclaim his existence and divinity. To make matters worse, as you can see in this thread even the members in this forum cannot even agree on the authenticity of the BkofM. The bible is in the same boat.    

 

Edited by priesthoodpower

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Vort can learn a lesson from your post because he thinks Jesus talks to him when in fact its the spirit that testifies of Jesus.

 

 You believe in Jesus so to you he is real, same goes for the 33% of Christians in this world. The other 67% of the world cannot be convinced that Jesus was a real person so to them he is not real. As a Christian myself I cannot convince anyone that Jesus was real, let alone his divinity, I can only tell them that I have faith and I believe in him and hopefully they will become believers too.

I taught hundreds of people on my mission in Japan and only baptized five, If Jesus was real I would had have more resources other then just two biased books (Bible/BKofM) to proclaim his existence and divinity. To make matters worse, as you can see in this thread even the members in this forum cannot even agree on the authenticity of the BkofM. The bible is in the same boat.    

 

PP,  I’m having a hard time following your posts here; but it seems like you’re coming down on @Vort primarily for his having the temerity to suggest that Jesus is, objectively, more real than Santa Claus.

Flirting with nihilism doesn’t make a person smarter. It doesn’t even make the person seem smarter.  

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

 You believe in Jesus so to you he is real, same goes for the 33% of Christians in this world. The other 67% of the world cannot be convinced that Jesus was a real person so to them he is not real. As a Christian myself I cannot convince anyone that Jesus was real, let alone his divinity, I can only tell them that I have faith and I believe in him and hopefully they will become believers too.

So, all the flat earthers are right. Wow, I should rethink my world view.  (See what I did there?)

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13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

PP,  I’m having a hard time following your posts here; but it seems like you’re coming down on @Vort primarily for his having the temerity to suggest that Jesus is, objectively, more real than Santa Claus.

Flirting with nihilism doesn’t make a person smarter. It doesn’t even make the person seem smarter.  

Agreed. Some may choose to question the divinity of Jesus, however, only a completely ignorant fool would question his reality as a person. Aside from the Bible, multiple Roman and Jewish writings mention him as actually existing...both in life and in death. It is fact that he was a real person who lived upon the earth.

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Vort can learn a lesson from your post because he thinks Jesus talks to him when in fact its the spirit that testifies of Jesus.

 

 You believe in Jesus so to you he is real, same goes for the 33% of Christians in this world. The other 67% of the world cannot be convinced that Jesus was a real person so to them he is not real. As a Christian myself I cannot convince anyone that Jesus was real, let alone his divinity, I can only tell them that I have faith and I believe in him and hopefully they will become believers too.

I taught hundreds of people on my mission in Japan and only baptized five, If Jesus was real I would had have more resources other then just two biased books (Bible/BKofM) to proclaim his existence and divinity. To make matters worse, as you can see in this thread even the members in this forum cannot even agree on the authenticity of the BkofM. The bible is in the same boat.    

 

Most of what we call real - is belief.  Are electrons real?  Something is happening and science does its best to come up with an explanation.  The more we learn about what we think are electrons the more we realize the inadequacies or our explanations. But there is another problem - how does one distinguish between what is real and what they think is real?  There are two possibilities in determining reality.  One is by relying on empirical evidence to construct a proof of reality.  The second is faith initiated revelation from a divine source.

Some time ago I introduced to the forum that what we think is empirical reality - quite possibly is a simulation.  This simulation concept of reality is a most difficult concept to deal with.  In short it means that the only way to conceptualize reality is be divine revelation.  But there is a problem with divine revelation and that is anyone can claim anything to be divine revelation.  By definition - G-d is the proctor of whatever simulation concept of empirical reality is in effect and is also the divine source of revelation.  Thus the only possible means for us to determine "reality" is by whatever consistency is resolved through empirical evidence and divine revelation.

Without publishing volumes on this subject - Jesus being real is the only possibility of commuting divine justice and mercy I have encountered.  Does this mean that it was necessary for Jesus to walk on water?  To be honest - I cannot resolve that question beyond the decision that it really does not matter if that story is a fabrication or not.  Even if Jesus walking on water turns out to be a false distortion of reality - it does not negate the absolute need of a divine redeemer to resolve divine mercy with divine justice.  The Messiahship of Christ is necessary and real.

 

The Traveler

 

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2 minutes ago, person0 said:

Is it okay to use the word 'literal' in a figurative way?  (Given the thread title, I find it comical that this question is somewhat off topic 😁)

Are you sure you are not trying to define a "figurative" concept in a "literal way?

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

Is it okay to use the word 'literal' in a figurative way?  (Given the thread title, I find it comical that this question is somewhat off topic 😁)

When I read this, my head literally exploded. (The other people on the bus weren't happy.)

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On 9/6/2019 at 7:43 AM, mikbone said:

Is it ok to believe that the Fall of Adam or that the Book of Mormon narratives are just stories that God has revealed or should we perceive these accounts as actual events that occurred to real people? And does it matter?

image.thumb.png.9471224c39bc1b1ea1f53985f9bd585c.png

By definition it is not ok, as in it is not right, approved, endorsed, or authorized.  It does matter if one desires to believe the Truth.  Some people believe that the story of Job was not a real history, but the D&C indicates that Job was a real man.  Likewise, D&C mentions Nephi, and Joseph Smith was visited in person by Moroni.  If these are just stories, then that becomes very problematic to the religion and world view of Latter-Day Saints.

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48 minutes ago, person0 said:

By definition it is not ok, as in it is not right, approved, endorsed, or authorized.  It does matter if one desires to believe the Truth.  Some people believe that the story of Job was not a real history, but the D&C indicates that Job was a real man.  Likewise, D&C mentions Nephi, and Joseph Smith was visited in person by Moroni.  If these are just stories, then that becomes very problematic to the religion and world view of Latter-Day Saints.

You are missing part of the point.  George Washington may have been a real man but the story of him chopping down a cherry tree as a lad may not be real history (meaning an event that happened).  It is not uncommon that a real person that existed is recorded to have done things - that were figurative and not real historic events or were things that were done or said by someone else.

It may be possible that real people doing real things in history are recorded or remember figuratively.  I am quite astonished with those that think if anything said about an person is allegorical - that it means nothing of that individual is "historic".  Or that types and shadows in history (history repeating) that any specific event is not literal.   Things that are literal may have figurative references and likewish things that are figurative may have literal events as their basis.  I believe the whole argument is a "red herring".  BTW a red herring may be literal or figurative.

 

The Traveler

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11 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Vort can learn a lesson from your post because he thinks Jesus talks to him when in fact its the spirit that testifies of Jesus.

 

 You believe in Jesus so to you he is real, same goes for the 33% of Christians in this world. The other 67% of the world cannot be convinced that Jesus was a real person so to them he is not real. As a Christian myself I cannot convince anyone that Jesus was real, let alone his divinity, I can only tell them that I have faith and I believe in him and hopefully they will become believers too.

I taught hundreds of people on my mission in Japan and only baptized five, If Jesus was real I would had have more resources other then just two biased books (Bible/BKofM) to proclaim his existence and divinity. To make matters worse, as you can see in this thread even the members in this forum cannot even agree on the authenticity of the BkofM. The bible is in the same boat.    

 

I HAVE talked to the Lord.  I have SEEN him.  It is possible for those who are not General Authorities to do so.  I am NOT the Prophet though, nor am I the Seer or Revelator.  However, because I have seen the Lord I KNOW that he is real.  Many have been given this gift and opportunity in this life. 

There are others who have seen the Lord at various times.  Many of these have occurred in Near Death experiences or similar times.  Many of those will also say they know the reality of his existence.

However, this is a personal thing.  I KNOW because I have seen and heard.  There is no way to show you the experience, as it was not recorded on any devices I have or was able to give.  Many work to try to disprove the experiences others have had so that instead of saying that they know from seeing and hearing, that it is still a belief based on the brain's actions.  People can tell you what they have seen and heard in this life or their experiences, just like any other experience.  They cannot make anyone believe that those experiences are true or not.  The same applies in this.  I KNOW he lives, but you have not experienced what I have, so I cannot make you believe that or to help your belief in that regards.

However, this does not diminish their testimony of these things, nor does it mine.  I know he is real because I have seen him.  I BELIEVE in him because of the Spirit and the Holy Ghost.  They reaffirm my testimony.  My experiences are just as real as they have been when I type on this computer and touch the keyboard, or when I eat my lunch or any other experiences we have.

In this, I'd say there are MORE resources than just "two biased books" but for the most part, those who testify of him are largely ignored in many ways.  Even a testimony from the Holy Ghost can give one faith, and that in itself I consider a testimony and yet another resource that testifies that he is real.  Those who have this testimony and bear it can have a powerful effect and they too are a resource testifying that the Lord, the atonement, and it's effects in this life are real. 

There are many things I do not KNOW.  There are many things that are merely belief to me.  There are many things that are less than that and are merely opinions, or less than that, mere thoughts on a matter.  I cannot tell you about how the Bible or Book of Mormon happened in history.  I believe many things but I haven't been granted knowledge of all things.  But I will say that one can KNOW of the Savior being a reality and that Jesus Christ is real.  I know this, and I know there are others who also have had experiences that have also given them this gift while in this life.

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46 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It may be possible that real people doing real things in history are recorded or remember figuratively.

Nephi claims that his record was written in his own hand; Mormon did not summarize it.  Likewise, Jacob wrote in his own hand, as did all the authors in the Book of Mormon through Omni.  Then, both Mormon and Moroni wrote their own records. If they are making up stories about themselves, then I would suggest that is problematic.  That doesn't mean that one should expect their record to be flawless.  I'm certain that the literal (Ha!) dialogue between Jacob and Sherem could have been adapted, abridged, or unintentionally altered by Jacob as he remembered his conversation.  To suggest that those accounts are not literal histories would indicate deception; it is not the same to suggest that biblical accounts of the creation may be figurative, as to suggest that the things Nephi said about himself could be figurative.

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17 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I taught hundreds of people on my mission in Japan and only baptized five, If Jesus was real I would had have more resources other then just two biased books (Bible/BKofM) to proclaim his existence and divinity. To make matters worse, as you can see in this thread even the members in this forum cannot even agree on the authenticity of the BkofM. The bible is in the same boat.   

I am honestly dumb founded that someone who served a mission could make the emphasized statement. Let's review what we have:

1) Bible

2) Book of Mormon

Let's remember that both of these books represent a witness from two nations and their experiences with Jehovah/Jesus Christ. Wait, what do you mean by only two "biased" resources? They are biased because they speak of Christ? They are biased because they come from a nation? Are you really thinking through this statement, "just two biased resources"? Let's check your facts:

1) Doctrine and Covenants, particularly the following verse of scripture, "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!"

2) All other prophets since Joseph Smith, there personal witness and testimony. President Snow who said the following, "‘Wait a moment, Allie, I want to tell you something. It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff.’"

3) The 12 additional witnesses.

OK, so you taught from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, the Doctrine and Covenants, and any other Church resource, and yet you specify, "If Jesus was real I would have had more resources than just two biased books..." Guess what brother Jesus is real, because you had more than two resources. Think.A.Little.Harder.And.More.In.Depth.Please.

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8 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I am honestly dumb founded that someone who served a mission could make the emphasized statement. Let's review what we have:

1) Bible

2) Book of Mormon

Let's remember that both of these books represent a witness from two nations and their experiences with Jehovah/Jesus Christ. Wait, what do you mean by only two "biased" resources? They are biased because they speak of Christ? They are biased because they come from a nation? Are you really thinking through this statement, "just two biased resources"? Let's check your facts:

1) Doctrine and Covenants, particularly the following verse of scripture, "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!"

2) All other prophets since Joseph Smith, there personal witness and testimony. President Snow who said the following, "‘Wait a moment, Allie, I want to tell you something. It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff.’"

3) The 12 additional witnesses.

OK, so you taught from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, the Doctrine and Covenants, and any other Church resource, and yet you specify, "If Jesus was real I would have had more resources than just two biased books..." Guess what brother Jesus is real, because you had more than two resources. Think.A.Little.Harder.And.More.In.Depth.Please.

If you served a mission, you and I both know that our Mission Presidents taught us that our best resource is our testimony and the spirit, thats it. These other things you point out is all fine and dandy for me and you as believers but to non-members/non-believers it means nothing and proves nothing.

Let me be clear here:

1. Im playing devils advocate.

2. I believe in Jesus. Is he a real resurrected being in the flesh? Yes, I believe it. Did I see, hear or touch him? No, all I have to go on is my faith based on the history of prophets and storys in two books that testify of him. 

3. In the convincing of investigators that Jesus is our Savior we have nothing other then the two books to testify of it. Are these two books credible? I myself personally believe so but just Look at this thread and see how nit picky people can get about that credibility so imagine what critics and naysayers have to say about it. 

4. There is a place called Antarctica that not a lot of people have been to but we know it exists because of pictures, video and books that have been written by scientists that have visited that continent. If I wanted to I could get on a boat and travel there and confirm that Antarctica exists. 100% of the people in this world would agree that Antarctica exists even if 99% of us will never visit it.

My argument with the resurrected Jesus Christ (his earthly ministry is a little different of an argument) is that only a handful of people saw him face-to-face and no one else can do that anymore. Only 15 people saw the Golden plates and no one else can see it anymore. As missionaries we were taught that without the spirit you will not convert anyone so what does that say about the tangible resources that currently exist?

 

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1 hour ago, priesthoodpower said:

As missionaries we were taught that without the spirit you will not convert anyone so what does that say about the tangible resources that currently exist?

That tangible resources do not convert. Only convince. While on my mission I met many people who, when they heard the doctrines of the gospel said “that makes sense! I believe that!” But then did nothing about that belief. They were convinced... but not converted. I admittedly have also met many “active” members of the church who are convinced, yet do nothing with their membership. They are not converted.

If you read Doctrine and Covenants 29:7, 131:34-40, and Matt 7:13-14, you’ll see that it is fairly clear that the gospel isn’t a club or a product for sale. Even God knows only a handful of people will actually accept the gospel, providing physical evidence (which I argue there is) will only provide condemnation for those that reject the gospel. We aren't converting people to a scientific thought, but to a divine and godly way of life and belief.

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On 9/9/2019 at 9:02 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I HAVE talked to the Lord.  I have SEEN him.  It is possible for those who are not General Authorities to do so.  I am NOT the Prophet though, nor am I the Seer or Revelator.  However, because I have seen the Lord I KNOW that he is real.  Many have been given this gift and opportunity in this life. 

There are others who have seen the Lord at various times.  Many of these have occurred in Near Death experiences or similar times.  Many of those will also say they know the reality of his existence.

However, this is a personal thing.  I KNOW because I have seen and heard.  There is no way to show you the experience, as it was not recorded on any devices I have or was able to give.  Many work to try to disprove the experiences others have had so that instead of saying that they know from seeing and hearing, that it is still a belief based on the brain's actions.  People can tell you what they have seen and heard in this life or their experiences, just like any other experience.  They cannot make anyone believe that those experiences are true or not.  The same applies in this.  I KNOW he lives, but you have not experienced what I have, so I cannot make you believe that or to help your belief in that regards.

 

Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

On 9/9/2019 at 9:02 AM, JohnsonJones said:

There are many things I do not KNOW.  There are many things that are merely belief to me.  There are many things that are less than that and are merely opinions, or less than that, mere thoughts on a matter.  I cannot tell you about how the Bible or Book of Mormon happened in history.  I believe many things but I haven't been granted knowledge of all things.  But I will say that one can KNOW of the Savior being a reality and that Jesus Christ is real.  I know this, and I know there are others who also have had experiences that have also given them this gift while in this life.

This has got to be the paragraph of the year. Your humility is a breath of fresh air. 

* For the record. There have been many people that have had near death experiences where they talk to angels or even God himself, one particular NDE said she Talked to God, she asked God which religion or church is his, God told her none of them. Im sure vort will chime in here and say she was deceived because its not the answer that vort wanted to hear. smh!

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