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16 hours ago, Fether said:

...I do not believe that the elect of God:

- Complain about giving talks, seriously or sarcastically (I absolutely hate the culture of "it's funny to complain about giving a talk/accepting a calling")
- Reject callings
- Joke about not wanting their current stewardship as a leader or teacher
- Reject an assignment to teach
- Are checking Social Media during church
- Gossip EVER
- watch ANY movie with immoral or ammoral content (PG-13 and some PG movies)
- Attend the temple less than once a month (when within a reachable distance)
- fail to read their scriptures and pray regularly
- Swear
- Break the sabbath
- Fail to do FHE
- Fail to take their spouse on a date (or treat as the spouse desires)
- Fail to read their patriarchal blessing regularly and keep it close to them
- Sleep in (meaning sleeping longer than 8 hours)
- Never lie, steal, or pirate material

I DO believe the elect of God:
- Desire callings, assignments, and positions of glory
- Aspire to Godhood
- Retire to bed early and arise early to prepare spiritually for the day
- Eat healthily
- Exercise
- LOVE the scriptures and LOVE prayer...

I think you've described Mary Poppins (practically perfect in every way).

But seriouly, your list sounds like you are describing a robot. I'm not clear on the Latter-day Saint's definition of elect of God but to me it doesn't seem this elect has a heart or soul. Does this elect cry or laugh or fall ill or even require help or friendship themselves. Your list of do's and don'ts seems superficial, there's no humanity or love behind either.

M.

Edited by Maureen

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49 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I think you've described Mary Poppins (practically perfect in every way).

But seriouly, your list sounds like you are describing a robot. I'm not clear on the Latter-day Saint's definition of elect of God but to me it doesn't seem this elect has a heart or soul. Does this elect cry or laugh or fall ill or even require help or friendship themselves. Your list of do's and don'ts seems superficial, there's no humanity or love behind either.

M.

I am thinking that the list may very well be an accurate list of trials and possible shortcomings faced by a great many saints (elect) in our day and time.

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1 hour ago, Maureen said:

I think you've described Mary Poppins (practically perfect in every way).

But seriouly, your list sounds like you are describing a robot. I'm not clear on the Latter-day Saint's definition of elect of God but to me it doesn't seem this elect has a heart or soul. Does this elect cry or laugh or fall ill or even require help or friendship themselves. Your list of do's and don'ts seems superficial, there's no humanity or love behind either.

M.

I don’t appreciate your inability to think past what you read. If I were to describe a cake as “chocolate”, would you think I’m saying the whole cake was just a big hunk of solid chocolate?

Based in your comment, it sounds that way. Personality, tragic experiences, emotional capabilities and enjoyments  play 0 role in in whether someone is elect. God is not a respecter of persons and I suggest you repent of that racist and prejudice thinking before it’s to late.

Edited by Fether

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3 minutes ago, Fether said:

...Based in your comment, it sounds that way. Personality, tragic experiences, emotional capabilities and enjoyments  play 0 role in in whether someone is elect. God is not a respecter of persons and I suggest you repent of that thinking before it’s to late.

Really, so in other words YOU do see the elect as robotic. And if you do not then please define to me what "the elect" really are.

M.

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3 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Really, so in other words YOU do see the elect as robotic. And if you do not then please define to me what "the elect" really are.

M.

The elect are the people that seek to do all those things and more. They seek exact obedience in all things.

Their personality, enjoyments, friendships, need for attention or assistance (or lack of) does not matter. I didn’t add “loves being around people and play board games”, “easily cries to a good chick flick” or “favorite video game is Smash Bros” because those things don’t make someone worthy of exaltation or not.

Sure they are important to the individual and to God, but whether someone cried at a funeral or not isn’t going to effect their exaltation.

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11 minutes ago, Fether said:

The elect are the people that seek to do all those things and more. They seek exact obedience in all things..... 

Your list is still very superficial because you forgot to include the two greatest commandments.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

M.

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16 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Your list is still very superficial because you forgot to include the two greatest commandments.

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

M.

I do stand corrected! You are 100% right, thank you for that correction. I will go and add it to the list. thank you for helping me further perfect it. Now, according to you, my list is no longer superficial :)

Edited by Fether

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45 minutes ago, Fether said:

I do stand corrected! You are 100% right, thank you for that correction. I will go and add it to the list. thank you for helping me further perfect it. Now, according to you, my list is no longer superficial :)

I'm starting to think that your list is superficial because your attitude (based on this post) is lacking in understanding about why being superficial in our interactions with other people is not satisfying or authentic.

M.

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22 hours ago, Fether said:

Ever have a moment where you hear something that strikes such a strong chord in your heart that it sticks with you forever? There was a man in my ward of whom I respected more than most due to the charity he selflessly gave and the gospel principles I watched him live. I heard him make an off the cuff comment in a gospel doctrine when I was young. I don't remember the topic or what was being discussed, but he said "I think there will be a lot of people expecting to get into the celestial kingdom that will find they are wrong." I'm not saying this man's words are equal to the prophets, but the spirit his comment brought to me (which only I can really be sure of) was undeniable. I would consider the quote by Bruce R McConkie 

“The elect of God comprise a very select group, an inner  of faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They are the portion of church members who are striving with all their hearts to keep the fulness of the gospel law in this life so that they can become inheritors of the fulness of gospel rewards in the life to come.”

I am going to make some potentially harsh statement and accusations that may reveal the kind of saint I am (for better or for worst), Of which I am sure many of us are guilty of (and know I am guilty of a few).

I do not believe that the elect of God:
- Complain about giving talks, seriously or sarcastically (I absolutely hate the culture of "it's funny to complain about giving a talk/accepting a calling")
- Reject callings
- Joke about not wanting their current stewardship as a leader or teacher
- Reject an assignment to teach
- Are checking Social Media during church
- Gossip EVER
- watch ANY movie with immoral or ammoral content (PG-13 and some PG movies)
- Attend the temple less than once a month (when within a reachable distance)
- fail to read their scriptures and pray regularly
- Swear
- Break the sabbath
- Fail to do FHE
- Fail to take their spouse on a date (or treat as the spouse desires)
- Fail to read their patriarchal blessing regularly and keep it close to them
- Sleep in (meaning sleeping longer than 8 hours)
- Never lie, steal, or pirate material

I DO believe the elect of God:
- Love God
- Love their neighbor
- Desire callings, assignments, and positions of glory
- Aspire to Godhood
- Retire to bed early and arise early to prepare spiritually for the day
- Eat healthily
- Exercise
- LOVE the scriptures and LOVE prayer

 

 

This is exactly how full time missionaries live and reminds me of my own mission way of living. It was the best two years of my life but I wouldnt want to do it again.

I will admit that the entire two years on my mission while living in that manner I experienced a spiritual high. Not to say I felt super spiritual everyday but when I finally returned home, the first month was an adjustment period where I literally felt that spiritual high slowly distancing its self away from me till I acclimated back into the dark and dreary world.

"In the world but not of the world", maybe thats why Maureen thinks its impractical and said the list resembles a robot. I would have probably agreed with her but I did serve a mission and experienced this spiritual high and know its possible and quite real. I mean dont get me wrong, i still sinned on my mission and had companion problems etc...but the intent and dedication of serving the Lord and proselyting 24/7 is what the journey was all about.

Edited by priesthoodpower

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4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

This is exactly how full time missionaries live and reminds me of my own mission way of living. It was the best two years of my life but I wouldnt want to do it again.

I will admit that the entire two years on my mission while living in that manner I experienced a spiritual high. Not to say I felt super spiritual everyday but when I finally returned home, the first month was an adjustment period where I literally felt that spiritual high slowly distancing its self away from me till I acclimated back into the dark and dreary world.

Can I just say that 3 years after getting home from my mission, I still get up between 4-5 am and expect myself to exercise and study scripture before the work of the day begins? I have read scriptures every day since my mission ended, not all are great studies, in fact many are pitiful. I don’t swear, I keep the WOW, pray regularity, read scriptures and pray with my family with little failure, have weekly FHE. I LOVE callings and fulfilling assignments. In fact, I asked for a teaching calling the first Sunday I got to my new ward and I now have it! I am pretty dang perfect in my ministering assignments (in the maintaining contact portion at least) and was perfect in my home teaching back when it was a thing. I attend the temple every week too (I sometimes miss). I have 53 different Book of Mormon scriptures memorized (which btw only took me like 3 weeks) and am working on Doctrine and Covenants scripture memory now. I also read at least one self help book a month. Last month it was “Atomic Habits” It was absolutely incredible! I recommend it to everyone.  I am the sole provider for my wife and 1, almost two kids (little Lainee is due next week :) ) My wife doesn’t work because we feel God needs her to be at home to raise our children, btw I am only 23. My wife is all these things and more.

But you know what, I still have many short comings. Pornography is still a HUGE temptation in my life and I am often reaching out to others in times of weakness. Only by the grace of God Am I able to withstand those temptations.

you know what else? I just dropped $2,000 on a sweet new gaming laptop with an RTX 2080-maxQ and I can now play BFV at ultra settings WITH RAY TRACING!!! I am going to be modding the ever living heck out of Skyrim and putting another 1000 hours into that great game too . I am also madly addicted to Super Smash Bros Ultimate, I play it with my friend EVERY chance I get (which admittedly is only like once a week :( )... sometimes well past midnight. We MURDER the online scene!! OH!!! And the new Season of iZombie just released on Netflix and I am binge watching it hard, it is SOOO good. Every other Saturday I play D&D with my friends. We also take every opportunity to play board games. Our favorite is Betrayal at Baulder’s Gate (a D&D version of betrayal at house on the hill). I recently rediscovered Greenday and am enjoying their new music (as well as the old). I played on my college Drumline for two years and loved every second of it :) so many great memories, invited one of my buddies three different times to meet with missionaries while drumming too, never took me up on the offer. I disk golf regularly. Southern Utah has some INCREDIBLE courses!

So ya... I don’t know what people mean when they say I’m “robotic”. 

Edited by Fether

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8 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Is it just me or did this thread go off the rails?

This is going just swimmingly. [/sarcasm]  I really appreciated this thread, too.  Well, some of the comments in it, anyway.  

Edited by Grunt

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19 hours ago, Fether said:

Can I just say that 3 years after getting home from my mission, I still get up between 4-5 am and expect myself to exercise and study scripture before the work of the day begins? I have read scriptures every day since my mission ended, not all are great studies, in fact many are pitiful. I don’t swear, I keep the WOW, pray regularity, read scriptures and pray with my family with little failure, have weekly FHE. I LOVE callings and fulfilling assignments. In fact, I asked for a teaching calling the first Sunday I got to my new ward and I now have it! I am pretty dang perfect in my ministering assignments (in the maintaining contact portion at least) and was perfect in my home teaching back when it was a thing. I attend the temple every week too (I sometimes miss). I have 53 different Book of Mormon scriptures memorized (which btw only took me like 3 weeks) and am working on Doctrine and Covenants scripture memory now. I also read at least one self help book a month. Last month it was “Atomic Habits” It was absolutely incredible! I recommend it to everyone.  I am the sole provider for my wife and 1, almost two kids (little Lainee is due next week :) ) My wife doesn’t work because we feel God needs her to be at home to raise our children, btw I am only 23. My wife is all these things and more.

But you know what, I still have many short comings. Pornography is still a HUGE temptation in my life and I am often reaching out to others in times of weakness. Only by the grace of God Am I able to withstand those temptations.

you know what else? I just dropped $2,000 on a sweet new gaming laptop with an RTX 2080-maxQ and I can now play BFV at ultra settings WITH RAY TRACING!!! I am going to be modding the ever living heck out of Skyrim and putting another 1000 hours into that great game too . I am also madly addicted to Super Smash Bros Ultimate, I play it with my friend EVERY chance I get (which admittedly is only like once a week :( )... sometimes well past midnight. We MURDER the online scene!! OH!!! And the new Season of iZombie just released on Netflix and I am binge watching it hard, it is SOOO good. Every other Saturday I play D&D with my friends. We also take every opportunity to play board games. Our favorite is Betrayal at Baulder’s Gate (a D&D version of betrayal at house on the hill). I recently rediscovered Greenday and am enjoying their new music (as well as the old). I played on my college Drumline for two years and loved every second of it :) so many great memories, invited one of my buddies three different times to meet with missionaries while drumming too, never took me up on the offer. I disk golf regularly. Southern Utah has some INCREDIBLE courses!

So ya... I don’t know what people mean when they say I’m “robotic”. 

It's not that you are robotic, it's the idea that if one checks off the list that you posted, they are righteous.  AS I mentioned above, it doesn't really tackle or discuss what real righteousness is.  It talks about some ideas which you feel are outward indicators, but they themselves are not what actually saves someone. 

Some of them are your own self values that you put up, and that's fine.  However, if one is looking at that list as this is what defines who is righteous and who is not...it gives the appearance that one has missed the boat by viewing guardshack on the harbor.  It makes it sound somewhat robotic, where everyone checks off the checklist and sees if everyone else is doing it too...sort of like a robotic assembly line.

A better way is to say it's looking at the outward appearance of being righteous while ignoring everything else, including the gospel and other aspects.  It's trying to say one case fits all, rather than allowing the idea that there are all sorts of people and followers of the Lord, even in the church.

I'm not against your list, I think it can fill in what someone who is righteous may do in their day to day activities.  However, just like the law of sacrifice was with the Jews, it was not the action of the sacrifice that saved them, it was the Lord's atonement.  Sometimes we focus to much on the action (such as sacrificing the lamb or animal) rather than the deeper meaning of why we do it and what actually saves us (the Lord's atonement and his sacrifice and resurrection).

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@JohnsonJones

You are spot on and I agree completely. The gripe I have is people say what you are saying... but then fail to have the works that really show it. What we do are symptoms of who we are. That is why I made that list because those are all symptoms of a righteous being.

Someone who complains about and rejects assignments is one who has the symptoms of disobedience.

Someone who reads scriptures once a week is someone who has symptoms or in-activity in the church.

Someone who does all those things but fails to love God and his neighbor has the symptom of hypocrisy.

We are SO obsessed with what we think is the “higher law” that we aren’t doing the easy check list.

Bro. Smith believes that if he only reads scriptures to check a box, then it will do him no good so we waits 3 weeks till he is spiritually starving and is craving scriptures.

Sister Jones (no relation to you I don t think) doesn’t want to go to the temple weekly because she doesn’t want to look like she is just checking a check box. Instead she says she will only go once a year because that way it “stays special” (real life example btw).

We need both the higher law and check lists to push us to godliness.

Edited by Fether

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5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Actually, I think her comments in this case actually match up very well.

Most of what @Fether listed are not listed as being something that the lord requires or even asks for.  They ARE superficial things that really have no bearing on how righteous or unrighteous one is.

It was hard to read any further after reading the given statement pertaining to @Fether's list:

1) Break the sabbath -- Last time I checked how we treat the Sabbath does in fact bear witness to our level of righteousness. Unless, you think that the person who only attends church twice a year (April and December), who parties on the weekend is just as righteous as the individual who faithfully keeps the Sabbath. I don't think breaking or keeping the Sabbath is superficial.

2) Reject callings - this has been said multiple times by living prophets that we do not say "no" to callings. This does show how righteous or unrighteous a person can be. There are obvious outliers (i.e. a story I read about a woman who would not accept a calling and did not accept a calling for 50 years because she had an abortion and did not feel worthy to have one). On the general those who genuinely accept a calling and serve are more righteous/faithful than those who don't. No different than the faithfulness of Nephi in comparison to his brothers.

3) Are checking Social Media during church - This isn't superficial. We have been asked by GAs to turn off our cell phones because people are not truly worshiping their God/Lord during the sacrament. Yes, this does show you a person commitment to the Lord and their personal faithfulness. This isn't superficial. It is a problem in the Church.

4) Gossip EVER - Seeing we are commanded not to gossip, this isn't superficial and does indeed show our faithfulness to the Lord. A person that doesn't gossip is definitely more righteous -- in that thing -- than a person who continually gossips in the ward. Gossipers are a hinder unity.

5) Fail to do FHE - Yes, this is a commandment and good counsel. A person that keeps the Lord's counsel is definitely showing more faithfulness than one who does not; although, if a person thinks they must be 100% (well, none of us are perfect).

6) Fail to read their scriptures and pray regularly -- A huge one that isn't superficial and surely does have an effect on the righteousness/unrighteousness of individuals. This is a commandment.

7) Never lie, steal, or pirate material -- Elder Bednar talked about pirating material and stealing. It is a commandment. This isn't superficial. A person who steals constantly in comparison to a person who doesn't -- well yes, this definitely is a good highlight toward righteousness vs. unrighteousness.

8 ) Attend the temple less than once a month (when within a reachable distance) -- Yes, this does show a difference of righteousness vs unrighteousness. The caveat is important. The Church has even pointed out how youth who regularly attend the temple are less likely to fall away.

9) Desire callings, assignments, and positions of glory -- I am not sure what he means by positions of glory, but a servant of the Lord desires to serve the Lord. He/she will desire to serve the Lord in whatever capacity and if they desire the Lord will call them. This isn't superficial. This desire is why Abraham became a Father of many nations, a prince of peace.

10) Aspire to Godhood -- This is no different than saying -- Calling and Election made sure. This isn't superficial, and a person (i.e. like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) who desired to know God -- which is Eternal Life -- which is Godhood as we are heirs isn't superficial. Yes, a person who is following the path toward receiving a calling and election made sure in comparison to individuals who are luke warm or don't care, yes they will tend to be more righteous and those who don't will be less so.

11) LOVE the scriptures and LOVE prayer...  -- Well, yes, this isn't superficial either. A person who loves the scriptures and loves prayer will definitely become more righteous than the person who doesn't care about scriptures and doesn't care about prayer. That should go without saying.

And so I am confused by how you think her comment matches up to anything, particularly this part of her statement, "Your list of do's and don'ts seems superficial, there's no humanity or love behind either."

Intriguing, there is no humanity or love behind "[loving] the scriptures and [loving] prayer? There is no humanity or love behind not gossiping? There is no humanity or love behind keeping and not breaking the Sabbath? There is no humanity or love behind desiring to serve the Lord in whatever capacity the Lord calls (the elect of God hear the Lord's voice -- they choose to be chosen)? There is no humanity nor love in attending the temple more than once a month (or once a month) when the temple is in close proximity? There is no humanity nor love in desiring to KNOW God (which is eternal life) aspiring to be like him, as the Lord commanded us to do?

We here have come to expect Maureen's misrepresenting comments, but honestly not sure how you are thinking that her comment matches well to anything.

Edited by Anddenex

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10 hours ago, Anddenex said:

It was hard to read any further after reading the given statement pertaining to @Fether's list:

1) Break the sabbath -- Last time I checked how we treat the Sabbath does in fact bear witness to our level of righteousness. Unless, you think that the person who only attends church twice a year (April and December), who parties on the weekend is just as righteous as the individual who faithfully keeps the Sabbath. I don't think breaking or keeping the Sabbath is superficial [...]

I have for good reasons no clue of what the intention of @Anddenex's post was, but in one way I agree to it.

There's no discussion in that the list is something that we all should strive to fulfill and that repentance is a wonderful thing. However, there are two problems if only fulfilling such a to-do list is required for exaltation.

First of all, no one on earth follows the to-do list to perfection, therefore, everybody would suffer damnation. We all sin in one way or the other and that's a life experience. That's why we needed a Savior to begin with. We are not expected to be perfect in this life but to become perfected in Him. At the same time we have people who either have handicaps or other struggles in earth life that makes it impossible to do certain thing, but they are not blocked from exaltation either. At the end of the day we are all dependant on The Lord's grace.

Secondly, what if I actually do those things but for the wrong reasons? I can desire positions for the sake of being on a pedestal, the same by doing good to others. In other words, just like a pharisee who sat on Moses' seat, but because they wanted recognision from men. If those works are to be accepted, they need to be done for the right reasons. Does that mean that we should stop to keep the sabbath day holy or stop doing FHE because we don't feel like it? Absolutely not! it's still better to do it than not doing it. At the same time, it's one of the ways to work for the real intention.

 

At the end of the day, what I'm trying to say is that everything is not just black and white. There are many holes and "what ifs" to say that we should just do all those things and first then are we rightious. In other words, one who follow the things in the said to-do list can certainly be rightious, but one can also be quite unrightious. Maybe it's an example of why it's important to not judge one another.... we don't know a persons heart just by crossing off from a list.

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3 hours ago, Nordic saint said:

I have for good reasons no clue of what the intention of @Anddenex's post was, but in one way I agree to it.

The intention was to point how how Maureen constantly misrepresents other posters and what they are actually saying. My response was in result to Fether's initial thoughts on what he doesn't believe someone who is elect will do, and what he believes someone who is elect will do.

Maureen responded with an inaccurate interpretation of his response. Fether defended that response, Vort piped in specifying Maureen's inaccuracy, and JAG also pointed out her misrepresentation of Fether's comment also.

At this point JohnsonJone's defended Maureen's comment specifying that her comment matched up very well, when her comment didn't match up to what Fether was actually saying. I simply pointed out that Fether's list isn't about being robotic. Fether's response wasn't providing superficial, by which Maureen's initial statement specified, "Your list of do's and don'ts seems superficial, there's no humanity or love behind either. "

I simply pointed out how intriguing it is that someone would defend Maureen's last comment that Fether's list is superficial and there is no humanity and love behind either, which is why I ended with the following:

Quote

 

Intriguing, there is no humanity or love behind "[loving] the scriptures and [loving] prayer? There is no humanity or love behind not gossiping? There is no humanity or love behind keeping and not breaking the Sabbath? There is no humanity or love behind desiring to serve the Lord in whatever capacity the Lord calls (the elect of God hear the Lord's voice -- they choose to be chosen)? There is no humanity nor love in attending the temple more than once a month (or once a month) when the temple is in close proximity? There is no humanity nor love in desiring to KNOW God (which is eternal life) aspiring to be like him, as the Lord commanded us to do?

We here have come to expect Maureen's misrepresenting comments, but honestly not sure how you are thinking that her comment matches well to anything.

 

Maureen's comment is obviously a misrepresentation of Fether's comment. And well, to be blunt, how silly it is and a person must have a lack of spiritual discernment to think Fether's list was 1) Robotic, 2) Without humanity, and 3) Without love. The irony I would say, the individual whose comment is without humanity, without love, and robotic is Maureen's who for some reason chooses to misrepresent people.

I would bet, that Fether would actually agree with your post. If someone is thinking his list was a matter of perfection, they are missing the point.

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27 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

...Maureen's comment is obviously a misrepresentation of Fether's comment. And well, to be blunt, how silly it is and a person must have a lack of spiritual discernment to think Fether's list was 1) Robotic, 2) Without humanity, and 3) Without love. The irony I would say, the individual whose comment is without humanity, without love, and robotic is Maureen's who for some reason chooses to misrepresent people....

I've read @Fether's post multiple times now and I still come away with the same feelings. I cannot read his mind or really understand the indepth point he is trying to get across because so far he hasn't expounded on his do's and don'ts list. I can only speculate that some of the items he chose for his list is because he himself likes and enjoys them. Why on earth does he think someone who sleeps longer than 8 hours could NOT be considered an elect of God but someone who retires to bed early and rises early can. To me, that is the definition of superficial. And the fact he didn't even consider the two greatest commandments were essential for his DO list tells me again that his thoughts behind his version of the elect of God is shallow.

@Fether, if you want to go into more detail on why you chose the items you did on your list, I'm more than happy to read it.

M.

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