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Sunday21

Canadian election

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Hey fellow Canadians!

@Maureen @SpiritDragon 

Any other Canucks here?

What are your thoughts on the upcoming election? I am trying to decide which party looks least disturbing.

The liberals have SNC-Lavelin. Company bribed their way to contracts in Libya. Illegal. Liberals tried to cover up. Fired Attorney— General when she tried to obtain evidence of influence attempts by taping conversations with persuaders. Trudeau cited ‘lack of trust’ in that she should not have been taping. Well what else should she have done?

The Tories still have that racist anti immigration ad which in my view requires a blood sacrifice by firing to obtain absolution.

NDP? Expensive promises they will never have to keep.

So where are you? 

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4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

...The Tories still have that racist anti immigration ad which in my view requires a blood sacrifice by firing to obtain absolution....

I haven't seen anything like that here. Can you add a link about these ads?

M.

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2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

This article is over a year old. I don't use Twitter so I wasn't familiar with the ad. The article says the ad was pulled, are you saying the CPC did not pull it?

M.

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4 hours ago, Maureen said:

This article is over a year old. I don't use Twitter so I wasn't familiar with the ad. The article says the ad was pulled, are you saying the CPC did not pull it?

M.

Yes they pulled it...but at some point the leadership of the party thought this ad was a good idea. They must have had a series of meetings during which the leadership of the party discussed the merits of various approaches and thought, ‘Hey this is is a good idea! this ad will appeal to a certain group of voters. Let’s attract this group of voters. Let’s pander to racists.’ Those leaders are still running the party.

Edited by Sunday21

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5 hours ago, Vort said:

Wow. What a deeply credible news source.

The national news source also report the same racist ad but I can’t get access to the weblink.

Here is the Huffington link https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/17/conservatives-yank-attack-ad-that-showed-black-migrant-entering-canada_a_23484161/

Edited by Sunday21

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Miss @Sunday21?  Can I, as an ignorant American have an opinion on the Canadian election? I can? I'd vote for Scheer, even though I don't think he stands a chance. I think Trudeau is corrupt but can mask it all with a nice smile and a clean haircut.

 

59 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

The national news source also report the same racist ad but I can’t get access to the weblink.

Remember, for a news source to be credible it has to report something that I already believe or agree with. Welcome to 2019. 

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What is the racial breakup of the current crop of Canadian immigrants?  (Not trying to be rhetorical here; I sincerely don’t know.)

If they are 4/5 black, do any portrayals or the crisis nevertheless have to use a white actor in order to avoid being accused of racism?

Or are complaints about a broken/unsustainable immigration regimen racist per se?

I don’t think the ad is particularly effective; but this jump to “if I don’t like it, it’s racist” is getting quite silly.  But, par for the course for HuffPo, Vice.com—and apparently, for a country that seriously contemplated throwing Jordan Peterson in jail.  :shrug:

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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13 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Hey fellow Canadians!

@Maureen @SpiritDragon 

Any other Canucks here?

What are your thoughts on the upcoming election? I am trying to decide which party looks least disturbing.

The liberals have SNC-Lavelin. Company bribed their way to contracts in Libya. Illegal. Liberals tried to cover up. Fired Attorney— General when she tried to obtain evidence of influence attempts by taping conversations with persuaders. Trudeau cited ‘lack of trust’ in that she should not have been taping. Well what else should she have done?

The Tories still have that racist anti immigration ad which in my view requires a blood sacrifice by firing to obtain absolution.

NDP? Expensive promises they will never have to keep.

So where are you? 

My grandmother, who for decades spent a huge chunk of the year living in PEI, would argue you should vote for the Tories because she is pretty conventional. I'm not a huge fan of Trudeau, so I would argue voting for the Tories as well. But I'm an American, as is my grandmother although some times she pretends otherwise, so feel free to take my reccomendation with a grain of salt☺.

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4 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

. I'm not a huge fan of Trudeau, 

Gotta be honest dude, I'm a bit surprised. Your left wing rants on Facebook are getting really annoying. Beside that and the constant posts about workouts and what bands you are listening to, I'm THIS CLOSE to blocking you. 

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24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Gotta be honest dude, I'm a bit surprised. Your left wing rants on Facebook are getting really annoying. Beside that and the constant posts about workouts and what bands you are listening to, I'm THIS CLOSE to blocking you. 

Hey Trudeau is far too right of Trotsky for me to be a fan. And it's not my fault you hate ABBA so much, that sounds like a you problem you capitalist pig.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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6 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Miss @Sunday21?  Can I, as an ignorant American have an opinion on the Canadian election? I can? I'd vote for Scheer, even though I don't think he stands a chance. I think Trudeau is corrupt but can mask it all with a nice smile and a clean haircut.

 

Remember, for a news source to be credible it has to report something that I already believe or agree with. Welcome to 2019. 

I also feel that Trudeau is corrupt! And that smile just makes it worse! I do like Scheer. I feel that his open embrace of his heritage is very helpful...but I fear the expensive promises. Mind you, currently I just can’t stomach voting for the Tories (racist) or Trudeau (slimy &  corrupt) so Scheer it may have to be! Voting for the least disgusting party! 

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6 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

f they are 4/5 black, do any portrayals or the crisis nevertheless have to use a white actor in order to avoid being accused of racism?

Or are complaints about a broken/unsustainable immigration regimen racist per se?

I don’t think the ad is particularly effective; but this jump to “if I don’t like it, it’s racist” is getting quite silly.  But, par for the course for HuffPo, Vice.com—and apparently, for a country that seriously contemplated throwing Jordan Peterson in jail.  :shrug:

I will tackle this point by point:

3) Canada needs more people. The country is mainly empty. Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland are pretty desperate for people. It is difficult to integrate many refugees quickly but are we just going to leave people to starve and die in Syria? Surely not. In my province, community groups adopt refugees. Awkward but so far seems to working out ok.

2) The Jordan Peterson situation is hard to follow because there is so much written. As far as I understand, he objected to an addition to the Human Rights Code that added gender identity to the code. I think that the university either asked or contemplating asking professors to use the preferred pronoun requested by students eg zhee or something similar. Peterson objected in a series of videos. The university hummed and hawed but sent Peterson a letter letting him know that he was in no danger of being fired. Such fusses are not unusual for university professors. We normally have a couple of drama queens in every department. Famous employes like to throw their weight around. Right now in my department, we have professor who walks into class, asks if there are questions and leaves shortly after. Annoying but such a method is one method of teaching. Threats to throw Peterson in jail? This is a joke, right?

1) Racial make up of current immigrants: 60% Asian, roughly 5%: Caribbean, Africa, Europe

https://www.google.ca/search?q=where+do+most+immigrants+come+from+to+canada&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ca&client=safari#imgrc=9McdkbLRbdU3UM:

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I will tackle this point by point:

3) Canada needs more people. The country is mainly empty. Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland are pretty desperate for people. It is difficult to integrate many refugees quickly but are we just going to leave people to starve and die in Syria? Surely not. In my province, community groups adopt refugees. Awkward but so far seems to working out ok.

2) The Jordan Peterson situation is hard to follow because there is so much written. As far as I understand, he objected to an addition to the Human Rights Code that added gender identity to the code. I think that the university either asked or contemplating asking professors to use the preferred pronoun requested by students eg zhee or something similar. Peterson objected in a series of videos. The university hummed and hawed but sent Peterson a letter letting him know that he was in no danger of being fired. Such fusses are not unusual for university professors. We normally have a couple of drama queens in every department. Famous employes like to throw their weight around. Right now in my department, we have professor who walks into class, asks if there are questions and leaves shortly after. Annoying but such a method is one method of teaching. Threats to throw Peterson in jail? This is a joke, right?

1) Racial make up of current immigrants: 60% Asian, roughly 5%: Caribbean, Africa, Europe

https://www.google.ca/search?q=where+do+most+immigrants+come+from+to+canada&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ca&client=safari#imgrc=9McdkbLRbdU3UM:

Thanks for the breakdown.  Some responses:

3.  What’s wrong with an empty country?  What, exactly, does it mean to be “desperate for people”; and will any people do, regardless of the relative function or dysfunction of the cultures from whence they are drawn?

2.  Fair correction.  OK, not threatening to jail Peterson specifically; just passing laws that allow for the jailing of others who insist on doing what Peterson does and refuse to submit to government re-education.  

1.  Helpful stats, thanks.  

So, going back to the Tory ad:  it would have been OK so long as it had depicted an Arab rather than an African? 

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53 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

3.  What’s wrong with an empty country?  What, exactly, does it mean to be “desperate for people”; and will any people do, regardless of the relative function or dysfunction of the cultures from whence they are drawn?

2.  Fair correction.  OK, not threatening to jail Peterson specifically; just passing laws that allow for the jailing of others who insist on doing what Peterson does and refuse to submit to government re-education.  

1.  Helpful stats, thanks.  

So, going back to the Tory ad:  it would have been OK so long as it had depicted an Arab rather than an African? 

1) Empty country. Businesses fail. No customers. 

Not enough jobs for young people. Parents sad because their twenty year olds move away. The sad history of Newfoundland.

Small production runs so expensive goods. 

2) There is a provision under which you could be jailed for hate speech. I have tried googling but did not find an example. If you have heard of one, I will look it up. I think several decades ago, someone was sent to jail but I cannot find this example. We tend not to send people to jail even if a provision is on the books. 

The company is responsible for the actions of employees as employees are agents of the company. The company is pressured to change the behavior. 

Here is an example of Human Rights violation at a company in Kingston On. I think the company name was Shaw. Plump female employee walks by desk of coworker. Coworker says swish, swish, swish in imitation of women’s nylons rubbing together. He refers to woman as a fat pig. Woman complains to manager. Manager tells her to ignore it. Women successfully sues company, manager, and coworker.

Person of native descent working in prison system in Ontario. Coworkers refer to him as ‘Chief’. When he tries to arrange a meeting as part of his normal duties, coworkers email him and ask if this will be a powwow. Coworkers make hatchet movements as he walks by. Correctional services division is fined. Everyone is sent on training.Employee is given a settlement.

3) That ad would not be okay if it depicted any other visible minority or recent immigrant 

 

 

Edited by Sunday21

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14 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:
1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, going back to the Tory ad:  it would have been OK so long as it had depicted an Arab rather than an African? 

3) That ad would not be okay if it depicted any other visible minority or recent immigrant 

So how can someone create an "okay" anti-immigration ad? Or is an anti-immigration attitude considered racist prima facie?

If the latter, then please explain how Canada has anything like "freedom of speech".

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29 minutes ago, Vort said:

So how can someone create an "okay" anti-immigration ad? Or is an anti-immigration attitude considered racist prima facie?

If the latter, then please explain how Canada has anything like "freedom of speech".

We have freedom of expression up to certain limits. It is a bit like living in a condo with rules about no parties after 10 pm.

Keegstra was a teacher in Alberta. He taught antisemitism in a class. His students were required to parrot back his beliefs for grades. Three trips to the Supreme Court in the 90s. His teaching certificate was removed and he was fined $5000. No jail time.

Our immigration system is a point system. You get more points for being in a certain age range. There are 3 separate programs and they all work on points with more points for being in a certain age range, not too old or too young, education, speaking either French or English, work experience and connections to Canada, friends and relatives. In addition, individual provinces can develop their point system. If you are thinking of a factory job in Manitoba, there is a system that gives more points for NOT having friends and family outside of Manitoba and for not having a university degree. The other point systems also function in Manitoba. 

In addition we have a temporary foreign worker program which is intended for things like agriculture.

We also have a refugee program.

I live in a country in which provinces are quite desperate for people. We can’t keep the factories and businesses in many locations open. Why would we want to restrict immigration? My pharmacist is Syrian. My doctor is a Muslim from Dearborn MI. My doctor reports that we keep thinking of little incentives to get him to move here permanently. If he and his spouse have another child and he aggrees to move here, we will pay him to stay home and nurture the child for 35 weeks.

 

 

Edited by Sunday21

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30 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

1) Empty country. Businesses fail. No customers. 

Not enough jobs for young people. Parents sad because their twenty year olds move away. The sad history of Newfoundland.

Small production runs so expensive goods. 

2) There is a provision under which you could be jailed for hate speech. I have tried googling but did not find an example. If you have heard of one, I will look it up. I think several decades ago, someone was sent to jail but I cannot find this example. We tend not to send people to jail even if a provision is on the books. 

The company is responsible for the actions of employees as employees are agents of the company. The company is pressured to change the behavior. 

Here is an example of Human Rights violation at a company in Kingston On. I think the company name was Shaw. Plump female employee walks by desk of coworker. Coworker says swish, swish, swish in imitation of women’s nylons rubbing together. He refers to woman as a fat pig. Woman complains to manager. Manager tells her to ignore it. Women successfully sues company, manager, and coworker.

Person of native descent working in prison system in Ontario. Coworkers refer to him as ‘Chief’. When he tries to arrange a meeting as part of his normal duties, coworkers email him and ask if this will be a powwow. Coworkers make hatchet movements as he walks by. Correctional services division is fined. Everyone is sent on training.Employee is given a settlement.

3) That ad would not be okay if it depicted any other visible minority or recent immigrant 

1.  Ok, so let’s put that back into the discourse of race that opened the topic.  Are there any moral considerations about (white) first-world  outsourcing these alleged burdens of declining population to (brown) third-world countries that would find depopulation even more economically devastating—particularly when the first world has created its own population crisis through selfish family choices?  Isn’t that sort of immigration policy just another form of racist oppression?

And if the Canadian economy is suffering so much from depopulation, then why are people willing to spend thousands of dollars to come halfway around the world to settle there rather than in Europe or any one of dozens of non-war-torn nations in Africa or Asia?

Also, I note you didn’t engage with the rest of my original question.  Will any people do for your economy/society, regardless of the relative function or dysfunction of the cultures from whence they are drawn?  

2.  Sounds like the assertion here boils down to “We made this law, but we won’t enforce it.  Honest!”

Winston was a free man, as soon as he declared he loved Big Brother.  The existence of Room 101 didn’t matter; because people who played nice didn’t have to worry about going there.

3.  As @Vort says, it sounds like your position is that anyone who has concerns about the Canadian immigration status quo is per se racist.  Given your statements, the only alternative interpretation I can think of would be the absurdity that a pro-immigration-reform poster must contain *only* illustrations of US/European immigrants who represent (if the numbers you cite are accurate) fewer than 10% of the people who are actually immigrating to Canada.

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24 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

We have freedom of expression up to certain limits. It is a bit like living in a condo with rules about no parties after 10 pm.

Keegstra was a teacher in Alberta. He taught antisemitism in a class. His students were required to parrot back his beliefs for grades. Three trips to the Supreme Court in the 90s. His teaching certificate was removed and he was fined $5000. No jail time.

Our immigration system is a point system. You get more points for being in a certain age range. There are 3 separate programs and they all work on points with more points for being in a certain age range, not too old or too young, education, speaking either French or English, work experience and connections to Canada, friends and relatives. In addition, individual provinces can develop their point system. If you are thinking of a factory job in Manitoba, there is a system that gives more points for NOT having friends and family outside of Manitoba and for not having a university degree. The other point systems also function in Manitoba. 

In addition we have a temporary foreign worker program which is intended for things like agriculture.

We also have a refugee program.

I live in a country in which provinces are quite desperate for people. We can’t keep the factories and businesses in many locations open. Why would we want to restrict immigration? My pharmacist is Syrian. My doctor is a Muslim from Dearborn MI. My doctor reports that we keep thinking of little incentives to get him to move here permanently. If he and his spouse have another child and he aggrees to move here, we will pay him to stay home and nurture the child for 35 weeks.

Thanks for the explanation, but you really didn't address my questions. Let me ask them this way:

  • How can someone create an "okay" anti-immigration ad? Or is an anti-immigration attitude considered racist prima facie?
  • If the latter, how does Canada have anything like "freedom of speech"?

Everyone has "freedom of speech up to certain limits." No one is allowed to advocate for the violent overthrow of the government, for example. But immigration? If I understand you correctly, you're saying that a Canadian must not ever express the opinion that immigration might be bad. A Canadian must not hold "racist" views, which would include saying or even thinking negative things about e.g. black people or homosexuals (though thinking and even speaking badly about white people or heterosexuals is presumably okay). Is this a fair assessment of your understanding of Canadian law and mores?

Do you approve of such a system? Do you have any concept of rights as God-given, or are all rights (in your view) just assigned by government?

Edited by Vort

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So bear in mind that I come from another culture in terms of news media so you may be referring to common lines of thought in your news media with which I am unfamiliar. 

Point by point: 

Are there any moral consideration abut (white) first-world  outsourcing these alleged burdens of declining population to (brown) third-world countries that would find depopulation even more economically devastating—

I am not sure that I am following.

Your point is this? You  feel that we are depopulating the educated class of the third world and thus exploiting the educational systems of the third world for our own benefit? 

My answer. Sending money home is a great tradition for immigrants. The polish economy in the 80’s was kept afloat by remittances sent home. I know this because I wrote an essay on the topic. The economy of the Philippines is greatly enhanced by remittances sent home. Having worked in Canada many retire to their country of origin with Canadian pensions.

Your point: particularly when the first world has created its own population crisis through selfish family choices?  Isn’t that sort of immigration policy just another form of racist oppression?

My answer. Well we need them. They want to come. I am happy.

Your point: And if the Canadian economy is suffering so much from depopulation, then why are people willing to spend thousands of dollars to come halfway around the world to settle there rather than in Europe or any one of dozens of non-war-torn nations in Africa or Asia?

My answer: We try to make it easy to come here. We give students 3 years after graduation to find a job. The UK gives 3- 6 months? Something like that. We try hard to be nice. If we see someone in the garb of another country, we open doors. We smile. There are some colourful immigrants in native dress in my area. We smile and wave. At my university, we email students individually and tell them that they are welcome. Our student services who give each of my students a Mock Interview specifically outlines the immigration rules. 

Your point: Also, I note you didn’t engage with the rest of my original question.  Will any people do for your economy/society, regardless of the relative function or dysfunction of the cultures from whence they are drawn?  

My answer: We have, as discussed above, various points systems. If you want to work in a factory in Manitoba there is a point system. Otherwise, we favour education, english and French language skills. You cannot retire here. If you do not come under a point system, temporary foreign worker, or refugees, then you need a job. Getting married to a Canadian is helpful but the process is long and we check you out thoroughly. 

2.  Your point: Sounds like the assertion here boils down to “We made this law, but we won’t enforce it.  Honest!”

My answer. We have a lot of ‘no bicycling on the sidewalk laws’. We do not enforce unless we are very annoyed and in the history of the country we have never been that annoyed.

Your point: Honest! 

My answer: Being upfront, authentic and direct is not a Canadian value. We have a lot of practice in telling you things indirectly. We begin with very very very indirect and gradually circle round carefully watching your reaction as we become gradually more direct. We then pat you all over to make sure that we did not hurt you too much. However, I very gently told a student today that he needs to floss and brush his teeth as he is going for interviews this term.

Your point: Winston was a free man, as soon as he declared he loved Big Brother.  The existence of Room 101 didn’t matter; because people who played nice didn’t have to worry about going there.

My answer: 1984? You know Orwell was a dedicated Social Democrat right? He would fit in well here.

Your point:   As @Vort says, it sounds like your position is that anyone who has concerns about the Canadian immigration status quo is per se racist.  

My answer: Well we need more people. We don’t have enough homemade ones. It is a lot cheaper to have someone else birth them, feed them and educate them. We get to pick the skills that we want. The immigrants seem pretty happy. White people are a minority where I work and we are all very happy. Things seems to be working out pretty well.

Your point: Given your statements, the only alternative interpretation I can think of would be the absurdity that a pro-immigration-reform poster must contain *only* illustrations of US/European immigrants who represent (if the numbers you cite are accurate) fewer than 10% of the people who are actually immigrating to Canada.

My answer: No we don’t get many Europeans relative to Asians. Canada does not have the vibrant culture of a European country. As a people we are pretty dull.

 

Edited by Sunday21

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