Punishment at the great and last day

[theplains]

2 Nephi 2:26 says, "And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the 
children of men from the fall.  And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have 
become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted 
upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the 
commandments which God hath given".

What is the punishment of the law at the great and last day for those redeemed from the fall?

Thanks,
Jim

[Guest Mores]

On 9/19/2019 at 12:21 PM, theplains said:

2 Nephi 2:26 says, "And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the 
children of men from the fall.  And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have 
become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted 
upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the 
commandments which God hath given".

What is the punishment of the law at the great and last day for those redeemed from the fall?

Thanks,
Jim

Short answer:  You're conflating some statements without recognizing the flow of the overall verse.  It means that even though we are redeemed from the Fall (whereby we are saved from Outer Darkness).  But we still have some rules we need to follow (this verse calls it the law) and there are some punishments associated with them.  That is, instead of hell, we have three degrees of glory.

Long answer:  We need proper context.  In fact, reading the entire chapter would give you a better understanding of the topic.  But you need background as well.

Your question was about punishment (final destination).  We can't talk about that without talking about the Atonement of Christ.  We can't talk about the Atonement of Christ without also talking about the fall.  And our sins and mortality are all around those topics.

The verse prior reads:

Quote

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

The "fall" here primarily refers to the change Adam and Eve went through to the state of mortality that we live in.  It is a world where sin and death exist.  By the law, Adam fell into a world of sin and death.  That punishment is our inheritance from Adam.  We all live in a world of sin and death regardless of whether we have faith in Christ or not.  This is the world we all live in.  We will all sin.  We will all die.

The phrase "and men are" is not simply that we exist.  It has a dual meaning here.  The verb "to be" (are) is the classical meaning of being alive and mortal (c.f. Hamlet's "to be or not to be" question).  Men have a mortal probation so that we may find joy in the eternal realms.  See verse 22

Quote

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

To the uninitiated, it may seem that staying in the Garden would have been a wonderful world.  But would it?  Why do you think God allows evil to exist?  Why does He let bad things happen to good people? verse 23:

Quote

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

Opposition is a necessary part of learning and growth.  There was no ability to progress in the Garden.  Thus, to a Latter-day Saint, it is hell.  It may be a gilded cage.  But it was still a cage.

So, this inheritance from Adam is actually a blessing in disguise.  It was all a necessary part of the story of this world.  If you're familiar with the classical literary device known as the hero's journey then you'll know what I'm talking about. 

The thing is that this is not just a literary device.  It is a very powerful and poignant commentary on the human condition.  It is real.  We all must go through the "death and rebirth" (usually multiple times) or else we are unable to grow to our full potential.  And that cannot happen without trials such as we experience in this world.

How we handle all these trials are what determines our eventual reward.

In case you want an abbreviated version:

Edited September 21, 2019 by Mores

[Just_A_Guy]

I think Lehi’s giving an extemporaneous sermon (from his deathbed, to wit), and Nephi’s either furiously trying to contemporaneously copy it down longhand or else trying to reconstruct it from memory later.  Either way it led to some textual infelicities, for which I’d cut them a break.  (Isaiah 29:20-21 may also provide some clarity here.  Also, there are certainly parts of the BoM where the authors, writing on metal plates with no option to erase, inadvertently created errors that they only caught after it was too late to fix them.  See, e.g., Alma 24:19–“Did I just write ‘weapons of peace’?  Oh, crap . . .”)

The overall point is that the plan God has put into action saves us from a state of eternal nihilism and offers our existence freedom and meaning; we can then use that freedom to choose the master we wish to follow and ultimately receive the wages of whomever we select.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Anddenex]

On 9/19/2019 at 11:21 AM, theplains said:

2 Nephi 2:26 says, "And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the 
children of men from the fall.  And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have 
become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted 
upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the 
commandments which God hath given".

What is the punishment of the law at the great and last day for those redeemed from the fall?

Thanks,
Jim

They are not spiritually redeemed from the fall. The verses answers its own question.

[dprh]

Here's how I see it.  My kids often get confused with the freedom to choose and the consequences of their actions.  They think being free to choose means there won't be any (negative) consequences.  That's not the case in our home, or in God's plan.  This verse says that because men are redeemed through Christ they have the freedom to act for themselve (choose).  But even with that freedom, there will still be consequences.  After the judgement, if you made bad decisions, your punishment will take away your ability to make choices.

[Jersey Boy]

On 9/19/2019 at 1:21 PM, theplains said:

2 Nephi 2:26 says, "And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the 
children of men from the fall.  And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have 
become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted 
upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the 
commandments which God hath given".

What is the punishment of the law at the great and last day for those redeemed from the fall?

Thanks,
Jim

The particular aspect of Christ’s redemption that the prophet Lehi speaks of in the verse you quoted is the redemption from the state of total spiritual death and abandonment that would have existed in the post-fall world if there had been no infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Christ. Lehi’s prophet son Jacob very graphically describes the horrific state of existence fallen man would have been subjected to if the atoning Lamb of God had not been slain from the foundation of the world...

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. (2 Nephi 9)

But both Jacob and Lehi testify that because of the merciful redemptive sacrifice of Christ the effects of the fall are partially mitigated and man is not totally cut off from the presence and uplifting influence of God, for it’s by virtue of Christ’s holy offering that a portion of his light “lighteth every man who cometh into the world.” This portion of divine light given to every human being enables them to have at least a basic understanding of the differences between good and evil, and because of that basic understanding of the difference between good and evil they are made moral agents who have the freedom to choose the path that leads to life and light or the path that leads to death and darkness.

Finally, the punishment of the law at the great and last day is when God casts into spiritual outer darkness those who used their God given freedom to follow the the path that leads to death and darkness but, tragically, utterly refused to gratefully come unto Christ in faith and sincerely repent until it is everlastingly too late.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[laronius]

On 9/21/2019 at 6:58 PM, Anddenex said:

They are not spiritually redeemed from the fall. The verses answers its own question.

@Anddenex got it right. Through the atonement of Jesus Christ all will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God and all transgressions (sins committed through ignorance) are covered. In other words we are redeemed from all the negative consequences of the fall that we have no control over. So the only thing we will be "punished" for are the sins we ourselves commit knowingly and do not repent of.

[Traveler]

I believe there are two elements in the Plan of Salvation that are sometimes understood and sometimes not.  The first element is Punishment.  I think there may be an impression that G-d creates punishment and causes it to have an effect on us.  In other words - at the last judgment G-d will pronounce us "unworthy" and send us to some level of Hell (that he created) to make us miserable and to pour upon us suffering and pain.  I do not believe any such thing to be true.  I believe whatever misery, suffering or pain we experience after the resurrection to be 100% or our own making and creation and that we choose it with full knowledge and understanding.

The second element is are Blessings.  In this life blessings are a gift from G-d but in the resurrection we must be worthy and obedient to all the principles upon which any blessing is predicated. 

I believe that in this life we sin but all sins during our mortal probation are redeemed fully by the atonement of Christ and are wiped clean.  With the knowledge of good and evil that we obtain through our experience we then choose what in scripture are called punishments or blessings of the resurrection.  Part of receiving blessings comes through the principles of repentance that we must choose and complete to become sanctified, pure, whole and holy.  Or we can choose to keep our sins and enjoy them over and over for eternity.  I believe the atonement of Christ resets us from and redeems all sins committed during our fallen probation of the fall and allows us access to G-d (The Father) and from there, with knowledge of good and evil, we determine our punishments or blessings for eternity of our own pleasure and pronounce them before G-d and witnesses.

 

The Traveler 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Traveler

[laronius]

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe that in this life we sin but all sins during our mortal probation are redeemed fully by the atonement of Christ and are wiped clean.  With the knowledge of good and evil that we obtain through our experience we then choose what in scripture are called punishments or blessings of the resurrection.  Part of receiving blessings comes through the principles of repentance that we must choose and complete to become sanctified, pure, whole and holy.  Or we can choose to keep our sins and enjoy them over and over for eternity.  I believe the atonement of Christ resets us from and redeems all sins committed during our fallen probation of the fall and allows us access to G-d (The Father) and from there, with knowledge of good and evil, we determine our punishments or blessings for eternity of our own pleasure and pronounce them before G-d and witnesses.

 

The Traveler 

So I have a question for you @Traveler. The scriptures make it clear that we will all suffer for our un-repented sins while in "hell." But what I've yet to come to a conclusion about is whether at the end have we actually paid the price the for our sins and thus released from hell or does Christ's atonement still cover them. It sounds like you believe the later to be true. Is that correct?

[Vort]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

So I have a question for you @Traveler. The scriptures make it clear that we will all suffer for our un-repented sins while in "hell." But what I've yet to come to a conclusion about is whether at the end have we actually paid the price the for our sins and thus released from hell or does Christ's atonement still cover them. It sounds like you believe the later to be true. Is that correct?

The following is a slightly non-traditional extension of our beliefs, but to me it seems obvious. I offer it for your consideration.

Did Alma the Younger "pay the price" for his extreme wickedness and many sins? In a sense, yes, he did; he was exposed to the eternal condemnation he had merited. But did he "atone" for his sins? Not at all. Such a thing is impossible. Indeed, it doesn't even make any sense: How can be "be at one" with the Father by suffering the condemnation that is the natural and unavoidable outcome of rejecting Christ and embracing the lusts of the flesh?

Those who receive eternal condemnation will suffer in that state forever, until and unless they accept Christ's atonement. Of course, most will eventually accept that reunification with the Father, to whatever amount they're able to be one with God. The atonement of Christ will finally save them from eternal condemnation, and they will receive all that they are willing to receive (cf. D&C 88:32).

What of those who utterly reject Christ's atonement? They are never redeemed from their eternal condemnation. How can they be? They reject the gift given them, and God will force no man to heaven. (Know This, That Every Soul Is Free, in case you didn't get the reference.)

We are unable to "pay the price for our sins", if by "paying the price" you mean somehow "earning" our way out of condemnation and into God's presence to some degree. The "price" we must "pay" for our sins is eternal and everlasting. Because God, too, is Eternal and Everlasting, he can and will mitigate that condemnation for all who will accept the gift of Christ's atonement. But those who refuse this gift necessarily refuse to escape their condemnation. Indeed, "the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation." (D&C 76:48)

[Just_A_Guy]

I agree with @Vort.  If I spit in Vort’s face, Vort doesn’t say “Well, that’s it, JAG won’t be at MY house for five to ten years!”  Nor does he say “well, JAG can come around once he’s ‘paid the price’ by mowing my lawn for a month”.  My sin has fostered within me a contempt for Vort, as well as deeply offending Vort and alienating the two of us on a personal, intimate level.  By the simple nature of relationships, we will be estranged forever unless we are reconciled through a process that fundamentally changes me and that and lets Vort observe and confirm (and maybe even test) the nature of that change.  That’s what repentance is.

The idea of Christ as Mediator between these otherwise-irreconcilable concepts of justice and mercy is important; but I’m inclined to think it reaches its limits when it leads us to view Hell as a sort of judicial sentence for wrongdoing or to hypothesize about scenarios in which we might be able to “pay for” our own sins and thereby get to heaven by means other than the merits of Christ.  “Heaven” without reconciliation with Christ is, simply put, not Heaven at all; because communion with God and His Christ is what makes Heaven Heaven.  You might as well set out to become a millionaire in a universe where there’s no such thing as money—it’s definitionally impossible.

Additionally, I would submit that Hell is Hell because we can’t commune with Them or experience Their goodness or enjoy the protection of Their law from that state of alienation.  Alma, to my mind, went to Hell, and remarkably—he got out of it as soon as he reconciled himself to Jesus through faith and a sincere desire to do His will.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Fether]

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Additionally, I would submit that Hell is Hell because we can’t commune with Them or experience Their goodness or enjoy the protection of Their law from that state of alienation.

How terrifying is that. I have heard many descriptions and theories as to what Hell is but all have seem surreal and fictitious... but this description fills me with really fear. What lead you to adopting this view? Any scriptures or quotes that lead you to it?

The quote from JSjr “What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands” comes to mind but it doesn’t quite hit home like what you said did.

[Traveler]

On 9/28/2019 at 9:11 AM, laronius said:

So I have a question for you @Traveler. The scriptures make it clear that we will all suffer for our un-repented sins while in "hell." But what I've yet to come to a conclusion about is whether at the end have we actually paid the price the for our sins and thus released from hell or does Christ's atonement still cover them. It sounds like you believe the later to be true. Is that correct?

I will answer with a old Buddhist parable.  BTW a Buddhist monk (like our young single missionaries) are to avoid certain contact with the opposite sex.  In the parable a older monk was traveling with a new young apprentice monk when they came to a wide and deep river.  On the bank of the river was a young beautiful maiden in tears because she was alone, needed to cross and did not know how to do so.

Without a word the old monk picked up they beautiful young maiden and carried her across the river where  he put her down and continued on his journey.   The young monk followed - also without saying a thing but he wondered how it was that the older monk did not seem troubled with his infraction of Buddhist law.  After several hours of traveling the young monk finely burst out and asked the older monk why he did not seem to care about his infraction.  The older monk looked into the eyes of the younger monk and said, "When I reached the far side of the river I put the maiden down but you have been caring her ever since."

I do not think Hell is so much about paying the price of our mortal sins as it is NOT putting then down and continuing our journey without them.

 

The Traveler

[theplains]

On 9/21/2019 at 12:03 PM, Mores said:

Opposition is a necessary part of learning and growth.  There was no ability to progress in the Garden.

The 1997 version of Gospel Principles says,

Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than
any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a 
certain point unless we left them for a time.

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council
to present his plan for our progression

The 2009 version has only the later part:

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him
for a time.

What do you believe allowed them to progress to a certain point in their celestial home which
was missing from their time before the Fall in the Garden of Eden?

Thanks,
Jim

[Just_A_Guy]

59 minutes ago, theplains said:

The 1997 version of Gospel Principles says,

Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than
any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a 
certain point unless we left them for a time.

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council
to present his plan for our progression

The 2009 version has only the later part:

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him
for a time.

What do you believe allowed them to progress to a certain point in their celestial home which
was missing from their time before the Fall in the Garden of Eden?

Thanks,
Jim

“Them”?

[Guest Mores]

On 10/6/2019 at 11:05 AM, theplains said:

What do you believe allowed them to progress to a certain point in their celestial home which
was missing from their time before the Fall in the Garden of Eden?

"Missing" is not the right word.  It was that they progressed "to a certain point".  And that was as much as could be learned in a state of innocence.  Such state was in both the Celestial sphere as well as the Garden.

Since they had already progressed to that point prior to their incarnation, they couldn't progress any further in a state of innocence.

The Hobbits had what seemed to be a happy life.  They learned stuff while at the Shire.  They progressed to a point.

But when Bilbo went "There and back again" he was forever changed.  He had to leave the Shire to do so.

Likewise, his nephew and his companions went through a similar change.  They all went through the death and rebirth process to come back from the journey, forever changed for the better.

There was no chance for death in the garden.  Therefore, no chance for rebirth.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Mores

[Fether]

On 10/6/2019 at 10:05 AM, theplains said:

The 1997 version of Gospel Principles says,

Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than
any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a 
certain point unless we left them for a time.

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council
to present his plan for our progression

The 2009 version has only the later part:

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him
for a time.

What do you believe allowed them to progress to a certain point in their celestial home which
was missing from their time before the Fall in the Garden of Eden?

Thanks,
Jim

I can teach my son to how walk, talk, run, play sports, deal with arguments, play nice, stand up for himself, read, write, do math, etc.

but until he goes out into the world and actually does those things, he will never become proficient or learn how to apply what he knows how to do.

One major thing that was “missing” was our bodies. We never had to experience and deal with physical pain, make the decision to raise a family, share the gospel, or refuse harmful physical substances or pleasures. Someone that can resist all manner of temptation of the physical and spiritual form is far closer to being Christlike than one who has never experienced evil.

[Jersey Boy]

On 10/6/2019 at 12:05 PM, theplains said:

The 1997 version of Gospel Principles says,

Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than
any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a 
certain point unless we left them for a time.

Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council
to present his plan for our progression

The 2009 version has only the later part:

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him
for a time.

What do you believe allowed them to progress to a certain point in their celestial home which
was missing from their time before the Fall in the Garden of Eden?

Thanks,
Jim

When we were premortal spirits, we lived in the immediate presence of God. After an indeterminate period of time of learning and growing spiritually while in the immediate presence of our heavenly parents, we came to a point in our progression when it became necessary to leave heaven so we could learn to believe in and trust in God while separated from his glorious presence  In addition, it was further deemed needful that we should enter a fallen state in which our spirits could be clothed with mortal bodies that would cause us to experience a great trial of faith to learn how to overcome the lusts of the flesh through our faith in Christ. The fallen nature was designed in wisdom  to be a time of trial to determine whether or not we would continue to believe In God and obey his will while outside of his immediate presence and in conditions of extreme spiritual adversity.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[theplains]

On 10/11/2019 at 3:09 AM, Jersey Boy said:

When we were premortal spirits, we lived in the immediate presence of God. After an indeterminate period of time of learning and growing spiritually while in the immediate presence of our heavenly parents, we came to a point in our progression when it became necessary to leave heaven so we could learn to believe in and trust in God while separated from his glorious presence

Did spirits have agency (the ability to choose between good and evil) in that pre-earth state?

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

On 10/10/2019 at 4:49 PM, Mores said:

"Missing" is not the right word.  It was that they progressed "to a certain point".  And that was as much as could be learned in a state of innocence.  Such state was in both the Celestial sphere as well as the Garden.

What do you mean by a "state of innocence" in the pre-earth life?

Thanks,
Jim

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Did spirits have agency (the ability to choose between good and evil) in that pre-earth state?

Thanks,
Jim

When one considers what occurred in the war in heaven, it becomes perfectly obvious that the spirits who dwelt in heaven at the foundation of the world had the ability and, just as importantly, the opportunity to choose between good and evil. Without the ability to choose between good and evil we would have to be either totally enslaved or mindless automatons.  

[Guest Mores]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:26 PM, theplains said:

What do you mean by a "state of innocence" in the pre-earth life?

Thanks,
Jim

What do you think it means?  Are you telling me that you're unable to put together the concept of the hero's journey with the doctrines taught by the gospel?

If you can't put it together, I'd hope you would pray for some understanding.  I'm sorry that I can't explain things like this through a medium like an online forum, it requires too much back and forth.  But this is really a basic concept that should be easily understood by someone with a bit of life experience.  How old are you?

Edited October 17, 2019 by Mores

[dprh]

2 hours ago, Mores said:

On 10/15/2019 at 6:26 PM, theplains said:

What do you mean by a "state of innocence" in the pre-earth life?

Thanks,
Jim

What do you think it means?  Are you telling me that you're unable to put together the concept of the hero's journey with the doctrines taught by the gospel?

If you can't put it together, I'd hope you would pray for some understanding.  I'm sorry that I can't explain things like this through a medium like an online forum, it requires too much back and forth.  But this is really a basic concept that should be easily understood by someone with a bit of life experience.  How old are you?

Thinking about @theplainsother question about the ability to choose in the pre-earth life, I can understand some confusion about being both the state of innocence and having the ability to choose.  Was Lucifer in a "state of innocence" when he rebelled against Heavenly Father's plan?  What about the spirits that followed him?  Maybe we could figure out the difference between "state of innocence" and "innocent".  Is there one?  I think we (the 2/3rds) were innocent because we weren't guilty of rebellion.  But to me, "state of innocence" implies a lack of agency.   Which could be the absence of choices, or the the absence of consequences of choices, or the absence of knowledge/understanding regarding the choices made.  In the pre-mortal life, I imagine that after the rebellion, we kind of ran out of choices, the last choice was to receive a physical body.  That was our "state of innocence".  In the Garden, Adam & Eve had choices, options, but they lacked the knowledge/understanding regarding those choices, being in a "state of innocence."  Same term, but different meanings.

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, dprh said:

Thinking about @theplainsother question about the ability to choose in the pre-earth life, I can understand some confusion about being both the state of innocence and having the ability to choose.  Was Lucifer in a "state of innocence" when he rebelled against Heavenly Father's plan?  What about the spirits that followed him?  Maybe we could figure out the difference between "state of innocence" and "innocent".  Is there one?  I think we (the 2/3rds) were innocent because we weren't guilty of rebellion.  But to me, "state of innocence" implies a lack of agency.   Which could be the absence of choices, or the the absence of consequences of choices, or the absence of knowledge/understanding regarding the choices made.  In the pre-mortal life, I imagine that after the rebellion, we kind of ran out of choices, the last choice was to receive a physical body.  That was our "state of innocence".  In the Garden, Adam & Eve had choices, options, but they lacked the knowledge/understanding regarding those choices, being in a "state of innocence."  Same term, but different meanings.

Have you read my previous posts to him regarding the "hero's journey"?  That's where it all comes from.  Did you read what I told him about The Hobbit?

I don't know just how much of the story of Adam and Eve is literal vs. figurative.  But what I DO know is that the doctrinal and spiritual knowledge we're to gain from it is mainly from the figurative story that is told to us.  And that is definitely the "hero's journey".  

From that paradigm, the "state of innocence" is referring to that original state of the hero before he is sent on the journey.  Again, it is not something that can easily be told in a simple forum post.  People go through week long seminars on things like this.

[Jersey Boy]

4 hours ago, dprh said:

Thinking about @theplainsother question about the ability to choose in the pre-earth life, I can understand some confusion about being both the state of innocence and having the ability to choose.  Was Lucifer in a "state of innocence" when he rebelled against Heavenly Father's plan?  What about the spirits that followed him?  Maybe we could figure out the difference between "state of innocence" and "innocent".  Is there one?  I think we (the 2/3rds) were innocent because we weren't guilty of rebellion.  But to me, "state of innocence" implies a lack of agency.   Which could be the absence of choices, or the the absence of consequences of choices, or the absence of knowledge/understanding regarding the choices made.  In the pre-mortal life, I imagine that after the rebellion, we kind of ran out of choices, the last choice was to receive a physical body.  That was our "state of innocence".  In the Garden, Adam & Eve had choices, options, but they lacked the knowledge/understanding regarding those choices, being in a "state of innocence."  Same term, but different meanings.

The state of innocence of Adam and Eve in the garden is directly analogous to, if not exactly like, the innocence of children prior to arriving at the age of accountability. Bright children who are nearly 8 years of age already possess a fair amount of accumulated knowledge and wisdom, but not nearly enough to be held to the same degree of accountability as full-grown adults whose brains are fully formed and who have long since passed beyond the time of sexual awakening at puberty.

All males and females on this earth experience an innocent “garden of Eden phase” that lasts from birth to the age of accountability. But when the first knowing transgression is committed after entering the age of accountability they fall from their childhood Eden and enter the lone and dreary world where they will be punished for their own sins. Any insightful Latter-Day Saint who’s paid keen attention during the temple endowment will understand what I’m saying.