Opposition is a necessary part of learning and growth


priesthoodpower
 Share

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I had my first child when I was 27 but I experienced the emotions of parenthood at age 10 when my oldest sister had her first child as a Junior in high school, she gave birth to him in the back seat of our car on the way to the hospital. To young and irresponsible to care for him (Ross) my parents adopted him, both my parents worked full time so it felt as if me and my siblings raised him. His mother and father were not in his life, he did not have that nurturing care that only biological parents can provide. His start in life was not fair.

As me and my siblings started to go off to college and with my parents living in two different states due to work, Ross had a lot of freedom as a youth and started getting into trouble. By the age of 15 it was inevitable the path which he was going to go down. Now at age 33 and having spent 7 yrs in prison already, he is now back in prison waiting trial for a crime he commited a few months ago.

The anger I felt when I first heard about the crime he commited and how stupid he was to do it all but vanishes when I think of his life from the start of day one. He was set up for failure.

God gives us free agency knowing very well that we will ALL fail to some degree or another, all of our failures and sins are lessons for ALL to learn. There exists the criminals family that loves and sympathizes with him so much yet there is also the victims family that hate this criminal and believe he is the devil himself. Does God create a bunch of devils and use them as Ginnie pigs so that the elite and elect can learn lessons and grow here on earth? That would be sad. From what I understand God does not create Ginnie pigs and we are ALL created in his likeness and his image and not satans.

The victim was probably a good person, the victims family are probably saying "why God! do you let bad things happen to good people!", while at the same time I am here saying "why God! do you let good people do bad things!"

Thankfully, Christ is our savior and he atoned for ALL of our sins. Only Christ and God knows what will happen at judgement day. I have a feeling though that when that time comes, God will have a big smile on his face because similar to the fall of Adam where a sin was committed and satan thought he one-upped God, God actually rejoiced because it was a blessing in disguise and all part of his plan. I am in no way justifying bad behavior and sins here on earth, im just hopeful God knows what he is doing and has a plan for ALL of us.

----------------------------

Ross is like a son to me (similar to how I feel about my own three kids), I can only imagine my siblings feel the same way, especially my older brother (Rodney) who is one year older than me. Rodney has been married for 20 yrs and his wife decided from the start that she did not want kids. Did God know this about Rodney and planned for Ross to be born in such a way so that Rodney could experience fatherhood in that point in time? ...there are so many "what-ifs", im just thinking out loud. 

 

* admins, may need to move this into General discussion, i was in the LDS discussion forum when typing this.

He was set up for failure.

No one in life is set up for failure, not even Ross. Are some of us born into more difficult circumstances, yes.

The victim was probably a good person, the victims family are probably saying "why God! do you let bad things happen to good people!", while at the same time I am here saying "why God! do you let good people do bad things!"

Moral agency is the reason why we are able to choose between good and evil. Moral agency is the reason why good things happen to good people. It is why good things happen to bad people. It is why bad things happen to good people, and it is why bad things happen to bad people.

We live in a Telestial world, and the Telestial world will have the type of people that inherit this kingdom (by their own choice). This means, by their own choice, our world will have murderers, adulterers, fornicators, liars, stealers, etc...

The other known reason for sure, as found in scripture, is so that a righteous judgement can come upon all people.

I am in no way justifying bad behavior and sins here on earth, im just hopeful God knows what he is doing and has a plan for ALL of us.

2 Nephi 2:24

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...
On 9/22/2019 at 7:06 AM, priesthoodpower said:

God gives us free agency knowing very well that we will ALL fail to some degree or another, all of our failures and sins are lessons for ALL to learn.

Is this how Heavenly Father (when he was a man) became the God of Earth?

Gale

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Is this how Heavenly Father (when he was a man) became the God of Earth?

Gale

We have no knowledge of what Heavenly Father's mortal experience may have been like.  I recommend reading this article: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1982/02/i-have-a-question/is-president-snows-statement-as-man-now-is-god-once-was-as-god-now-is-man-may-be-accepted-as-official-doctrine?lang=eng

...it seems to contain the beginning and ending of what has been revealed thus far on this topic.

Also, God is more than "God of Earth" - He is God of everything - see here, especially the 3rd paragraph: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/god?lang=eng

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GaleG said:

Is this how Heavenly Father (when he was a man) became the God of Earth?

Gale

Looking over the posting history of @GaleG, he/she tends to shotgun random insincere questions trying to hook/bait others, then afterwards does a "tuck and roll", or the "t-roll" method for short.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2019 at 8:29 PM, Anddenex said:

He was set up for failure.

No one in life is set up for failure, not even Ross. Are some of us born into more difficult circumstances, yes.

Not sure what you mean here. I don't see how anyone could miss that Ross was set up for failure. He definitely didn't have what many of the rest of us got when he started his mortal life. If you think we all start the same, I would beg to differ and yes. I believe God knowingly places us in circumstances that are designed for failure, but only failure as we understand it.

2 Nephi 10:2

For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer.

This passage is very meaningful to me in the context of the OP. To me, it seems that the author recognizes that many of their children are set up for failure and, I believe it is on purpose. They start out with less opportunity walking through life in darkness obtaining experience through their choices but that at some other time in the eternities, they can come to know Christ and accept him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/24/2019 at 4:52 PM, GaleG said:

Is this how Heavenly Father (when he was a man) became the God of Earth?

Gale

Heavenly Father is God of everything. He became that the same way Christ did. If you want to know how Heavenly Father did it, just learn everything you can about Christ and what Christ did is what Heavenly Father did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2019 at 2:07 AM, brotherofJared said:

Not sure what you mean here. I don't see how anyone could miss that Ross was set up for failure. He definitely didn't have what many of the rest of us got when he started his mortal life. If you think we all start the same, I would beg to differ and yes. I believe God knowingly places us in circumstances that are designed for failure, but only failure as we understand it.

2 Nephi 10:2

For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer.

This passage is very meaningful to me in the context of the OP. To me, it seems that the author recognizes that many of their children are set up for failure and, I believe it is on purpose. They start out with less opportunity walking through life in darkness obtaining experience through their choices but that at some other time in the eternities, they can come to know Christ and accept him.

I think what I mean is pretty obvious. The OP specifies, "He was set up for failure."

I said, "No one in life is set up for failure, not even Ross. Are some of us born into more difficult circumstances, yes." That seems pretty obvious also.

Where did I say we all have they same start? I didn't. I am pretty sure this is evidence for that, "Are some of us born into more difficult circumstances, yes." If some of us are born into more difficult circumstances in mortality how then would we all start out the same. You are implying something that wasn't said.

Key words "I believe" doesn't mean its true, that is your belief. I don't see how anyone could see he was setup for failure. Let me tell you of someone who had a more difficult start than Ross. She was born in Cambodia, her and her brother, and placed in an adoption agency. When she was young a Christian couple decided to adopt her, and the adoption agency didn't want to split her and her brother and would not let them adopt her unless they adopted her brother. They adopted both.

When they returned to America the couple realized they couldn't afford the two siblings and not wanting to split them apart the couple put both of them back into the system into foster care.  This lead to being placed into many different homes in her youth, where people on the surface said they cared. In her youth, she was told, taught, there are two type of people those who are the children of God and those who are the children of the devil. Due to all the bad circumstances in her life she was told she was a child of the devil and she continued to believe this while a teenager until she met the Church missionaries in her late teens.

She 'chose' to change her life and joined the church. She was married in the temple. She was the mother of five children. She wasn't setup for failure, no one is, but are some of us born into harder circumstance like this sister? Yes. If we are born into failure, and seeing her life was more difficult than Ross, why didn't she choose the same choices?

Edited by Anddenex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2019 at 4:07 AM, brotherofJared said:

Not sure what you mean here. I don't see how anyone could miss that Ross was set up for failure.

He wasn't.  These are statements that was presented as part of the "setting up for failure":

  • To young and irresponsible to care for him (Ross) my parents adopted him,
    I have a cousin - got pregnant at 15 years old, then at 17, then at 20 (and a few more after that, I lost count).  That first child ended up taking care of his siblings after his grandparents (who took care of him) moved to the USA when he was barely a teen.  He graduated high school with honors, paid for his own college and was top of his class, and now has a family of his own - all well cared for, nobody set up for failure.  Poverty, yes.  Failure, no.
  • both my parents worked full time so it felt as if me and my siblings raised him.
    I have 3 siblings - all 3 work full time and their spouses work full time.  Each of them have 3 children.  None of them are set up for failure.
    My husband has 2 siblings - both work full time, one spouse work full time.  Each of them have 5 children.  None of them are set up for failure.
  • he did not have that nurturing care that only biological parents can provide. 
    This is quite a bad rap on adoptive parents including Joseph the carpenter who is an adoptive father to Jesus.  This is not true.

In any case... Ross had a lot of challenges he needed to overcome.  He needed guidance to overcome them.  Like everybody else, he needed to repent and come to Jesus.  It's not too late for him to do so and it's not too late for Rodney, priesthoodpower, or anybody else within that sphere of influence to provide that guidance.  As the world turns... we act or are acted upon.  It is in how we respond that we can change to come closer to Christ, regardless of whether it's in the sunrise or sunset of mortal life and even beyond.

 

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

It is in how we respond that we can change to come closer to Christ, regardless of whether it's in the sunrise or sunset of mortal life and even beyond.

Hi @anatess2, not sure if you remember me, it's been awhile. Anyway, liked your response.

The "justice of God" is in a way illustrated by the problem-solving-test some of you may be familiar with:

"A farmer wants to cross a river with his fox, chicken and bag of grain, because the soil is better on the other side and the grain would grow well, there is unlimited feed for the chicken and unlimited hunting for the fox: everything would be "in heaven." She/He has a boat that is only big enough to hold her/him and one other thing at a time. In what order does she/he carry her/his property across the river so that they all arrive safely on the other side?"

If the farmer takes the fox across first and leaves the chicken and grain waiting together, the chicken will eat the grain; if she/he takes the grain across first, the fox will eat the chicken.

Obviously she/he must take the chicken across first, because the fox won't eat the grain if the two are left together. Then the farmer comes back and takes the grain over and switches it for the chicken which she/he brings back across the river to the original side and switches it for the fox, which she/he takes over and leaves on the other side, then returns and brings the chicken back last since the fox won't eat the grain it's been left with in the meantime. Voila.

The point is the farmer is limited in what she/he can do based on the nature of the fox, the chicken and the grain. The fox wants to eat the chicken, it is the fox's nature. The chicken wants to eat the grain, it is the chicken's nature. So because of what the fox and chicken would choose if given free agency and opportunity, the farmer must move them across the river in a very specific, tedious way.

I've thought about that story from the point of view of both animals:

-the chicken gets to cross first (yay), but then is taken back across the river (a setback) and must wait and be carried across last of all. It might seem "unfair" to the chicken that it be made to wait because of the fox's nature.

-the fox must wait for the chicken to cross first before the fox is carried over. It might seem "unfair" for the fox to have to wait for the chicken to cross first because of the chicken's nature.

I believe that's mortality in a nutshell, metaphorically speaking: God is the farmer, we're the animals. The brilliance of our all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful God is that He is able to take all of us with our individual and varying natures, and arrange our stay in mortality such that we each "cross the river" in a way that---I believe--best fulfills His purpose to grant us immortality and at least a chance at eternal life in His direct presence hereafter. (Moses 1:39)

The point is to submit to God's wise and righteous will (2 Nephi 2:24) and wait patiently. The folly of believing we know better than the source of all knowledge is hopefully obvious. If the fox or chicken had disliked the waiting and the way the farmer was doing things, they could have run away but then they'd never have reached the other side where unlimited grain awaited the chicken and unlimited hunting awaited the fox.

So it is with us.

Edited by CrimsonKairos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2019 at 4:10 AM, brotherofJared said:

Heavenly Father is God of everything. He became that the same way Christ did. If you want to know how Heavenly Father did it, just learn everything you can about Christ and what Christ did is what Heavenly Father did.

The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual said Jesus became ranked as a God
when he reached a pinnacle of intelligence in the pre-mortal life. The Book of Mormon mentions that
Jesus, as God, took on human flesh; whereas Heavenly Father is taught (by Joseph Smith) to have
been a man who became a God; and this God was not from everlasting.  

This doesn't sound like the same way that you mentioned.

Thanks,
Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, theplains said:

[1]The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual said Jesus became ranked as a God
when he reached a pinnacle of intelligence in the pre-mortal life.

[2]The Book of Mormon mentions that Jesus, as God, took on human flesh; whereas Heavenly Father is taught (by Joseph Smith) to have
been a man who became a God; and this God was not from everlasting.  

[3]This doesn't sound like the same way that you mentioned.

Thanks,
Jim

1.  A disembodied God, yes.

2.  Before God was a man, what was He?  Can you tell?  

3.  That’s because you don’t want it to be the same.  The role you have clearly chosen to play on this forum is what the Hebrews would have called ha satan—the accuser.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2019 at 5:06 AM, priesthoodpower said:

...he did not have that nurturing care that only biological parents can provide....

I am coming late to this discussion....

Seriously, you think that people who have chosen to adopt are not capable of nurturing their children? You actually believe that all biological parents are good parents; that no biological parent has ever been abusive to their children. Really?

M.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Maureen said:

Seriously, you think that people who have chosen to adopt are not capable of nurturing their children? You actually believe that all biological parents are good parents; that no biological parent has ever been abusive to their children. Really?

 

I'm sure @priesthoodpower just wasn't clear and we're misunderstanding them. 

It's mortally offensive to adoptees (me) and their parents (my parents) to think that way. But it's so downright stupid that it doesn't really need a response. So I'm sure we're just misunderstanding. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/1/2020 at 2:56 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  A disembodied God, yes.

2.  Before God was a man, what was He?  Can you tell?  

3.  That’s because you don’t want it to be the same.  The role you have clearly chosen to play on this forum is what the Hebrews would have called ha satan—the accuser.  

1] Page 6 of the 1997 Gospel Principles has this image of the pre-mortal life.

Does Heavenly Father have a spirit body like his children are depicted as having in the picture
(as they are believed to be created in His image)?

2] I believe there is only one God, anywhere, and He was never a man who progressed into
becoming a God.

3] brotherofJared said Heavenly Father became God the same way Christ did.

How do you believe these two became Gods in the same way?

Thanks,
Jim

lds-image-pre-mortal-life.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, theplains said:

1] Page 6 of the 1997 Gospel Principles has this image of the pre-mortal life.

Does Heavenly Father have a spirit body like his children are depicted as having in the picture
(as they are believed to be created in His image)?

2] I believe there is only one God, anywhere, and He was never a man who progressed into
becoming a God.

3] brotherofJared said Heavenly Father became God the same way Christ did.

How do you believe these two became Gods in the same way?

Thanks,
Jim

lds-image-pre-mortal-life.gif

1.  Do you take *every* picture in a religious text as establishing doctrine?  What about all those pictures of the nativity that show Jesus in a wooden manger, even though we know Palestinian Jews of the first century AD would have been using stone mangers?

In answer to your question, Heavenly Father is the embodiment of a union between a spirit (or “spirit body”) and an immortal physical body of perfected flesh.

2.  That’s very nice.  But the invented dogmas of hellenized third-century Christians who lionized Socrates as much as Jesus and who were confounded by Jews who pointed out that worship of a God who was also the Son of God couldn’t possibly be “monotheistic”, are wholly irrelevant to the current discussion.  You’re alleging that Latter-day Saint theology is internally inconsistent; it’s a non sequitur for you to trot out trinitarian fables to further that effort.  The question I asked you challenged you to explore the situation from an LDS perspective, which of course you didn’t do; because as I said earlier, you’re here as an accusing ha satan; not as someone sincerely seeking truth or even as a teacher lovingly trying to understand another’s error before correcting it.

3.  Jesus said He had done nothing but what He had seen the Father do (John 5:19).  Many Saints have taken this literally in the context of Joseph Smith’s proposals in the King Follett discourse.  I think often they perhaps push the analogy beyond its usefulness.  That said, the process Jesus apparently went through was:

a.)  Organized as a spirit (from pre-existing intelligence) by God the Father;

b.) Progressed further than any other spirit, accepted the role of Savior, and attained status as a “god”, but still lacking a physical body;

c.)  Condescended to give up His divine power and live a sinless life as a mortal, in political weakness and social obscurity and poverty, ultimately suffering a painful and humiliating death; 

d.)  Was resurrected, being permanently joined to a perfected physical body and returned to the physical presence of the Father.  

The fact that the Book of Mormon generally focuses on c.) and d.) does not obviate or contradict a.) and b.).  

As for God the Father - we surmise He always existed at least as an intelligence, at some point was organized into a spirit, at some point received a body, lived, died, was resurrected, and became an embodied God; just as (in rough terms) Jesus did.  The degree to which the particulars of God the Father’s journey through mortality may or may not have paralleled Jesus’s own experiences as outlined above, is speculation upon inference.  I think some Church members like to believe that God the Father also went through the full  series of steps a) through d) because it lets us immediately dismiss uncomfortable questions like whether God the Father has a savior or whether God the Father ever sinned during His mortality; rather than acknowledging that we just don’t know. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
 
 
 
On 1/1/2020 at 11:38 AM, theplains said:

The Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual said Jesus became ranked as a God
when he reached a pinnacle of intelligence in the pre-mortal life. The Book of Mormon mentions that
Jesus, as God, took on human flesh; whereas Heavenly Father is taught (by Joseph Smith) to have
been a man who became a God; and this God was not from everlasting.  

This doesn't sound like the same way that you mentioned.

Thanks,
Jim

Beautiful opinion but false. Just follow the scriptures. Christ said, I can do nothing but what I saw my father do. I wasn't talking about Christ becoming God. That's not even in my vocabulary because Christ has always been God. I'm amazed that anyone can say that Christ became "ranked as a God". My point is the path, spirit to embodied to resurrected being is exactly the same for God the Father as it was for Christ.

What is the pinnacle of intelligence? It is one thing to be told things, it is quite another to experience it. Christ learned while he lived as a mortal, so I'm not sure the "pinnacle" was reached before mortality. But then, I don't believe the intelligence is the attribute that makes one a god.

Joseph Smith never taught that Heavenly Father was a man who became a God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
 
 
 
On 1/4/2020 at 9:58 AM, theplains said:

1] Page 6 of the 1997 Gospel Principles has this image of the pre-mortal life.

Does Heavenly Father have a spirit body like his children are depicted as having in the picture
(as they are believed to be created in His image)?

The picture is not real. It's just a depiction based on a concept. If the concept is false, so is the picture. But, let's consider the picture for a moment. Where is God the Father in that picture? Which one of those beings is He? Which one is Christ? Who, or that matter, are any of them? How can you tell which of them has a body and which of them don't? Were there not embodied spirits in the pre-mortal life? Did we not live with God, in his presence, at that time?

Here is food for thought. During our pre-mortal existence, how many others were present with us who had already lived through their mortality and had become resurrected beings? If they lived with God and we lived with God, it seems that we would be aware of them and they aware of us.

 
 
 
 
On 1/4/2020 at 9:58 AM, theplains said:

2] I believe there is only one God, anywhere, and He was never a man who progressed into
becoming a God.

But, IS He a man now? And, if He is a man, how do you think He became a man? This, of course, calls for speculation. But I am curious. I'll offer my speculation about what you are trying to describe... God was like Adam, a man who had the power to live forever and from that state, he developed into a God, somehow. The problem I see with that is that Adam was innocent and, in that state, Adam was unable to develop. He lacked opposition. How could one who knew no evil or good ever "progress into becoming a God"? How would he know that he knew all things? If it were progression, then; seemingly, there is the possibility that He doesn't know all things.

Also, if there is only one God, anywhere, then you can never become a god, anywhere. How does that fit into our theology? If there is only one God, anywhere, then what is Christ?

I just realized you might not be a member of our church. I might be missing something in this discussion. It appears that you're arguing a point using Joseph Smith's teachings but I'm not sure that your understanding of his teachings isn't a product of syncretism.

 
 
 
1
On 1/4/2020 at 9:58 AM, theplains said:

3] brotherofJared said Heavenly Father became God the same way Christ did.

How do you believe these two became Gods in the same way?

I assume this question was actually for me. They both were always Gods from eternity to eternity. It was never a matter of "becoming" Gods. That means there was no beginning where they were not Gods. There was no pinnacle for them to obtain to reach Godhood. However, there was a change in their physical nature. They were both, at one-time, spirits. They both were born of mortal women. They both lived as mortal beings. They both died and they are both resurrected. Through all of this, the same spirit being existed. That is the eternal nature of God. They were once unembodied spirits, now they are embodied spirits.

As far as the idea that there is only ONE God, this just seems silly in light of what we know ... namely, that God the Father is God and so also is Jesus Christ and they are separate physical beings. That is the first truth that Joseph Smith learned as an eye-witness (It was also radically different from all of what modern Christianity was teaching at the time). Is there only one Savior? I don't think so. After this earth has passed away and becomes our celestial home, there will be a new earth and a new heaven. Will that earth need a Savior too? Yes. Can it be Jesus? I don't think so. He can only die once. It would be impossible for him to die for another earth's sins. Will that Savior be God too? How many earths have come into existence and passed away before ours came into existence? How many will yet come into existence?

If we are to continue the seeds, what will become of our children? Will we give birth to spirit babies? Is that where spirits come from? Or will we give birth to physical babies? Who are the heavenly parents of all those who come into mortality? Is it all from one God?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/30/2019 at 10:24 AM, anatess2 said:

He wasn't.  These are statements that was presented as part of the "setting up for failure":

  • To young and irresponsible to care for him (Ross) my parents adopted him,
    I have a cousin - got pregnant at 15 years old, then at 17, then at 20 (and a few more after that, I lost count).  That first child ended up taking care of his siblings after his grandparents (who took care of him) moved to the USA when he was barely a teen.  He graduated high school with honors, paid for his own college and was top of his class, and now has a family of his own - all well cared for, nobody set up for failure.  Poverty, yes.  Failure, no.
  • both my parents worked full time so it felt as if me and my siblings raised him.
    I have 3 siblings - all 3 work full time and their spouses work full time.  Each of them have 3 children.  None of them are set up for failure.
    My husband has 2 siblings - both work full time, one spouse work full time.  Each of them have 5 children.  None of them are set up for failure.
  • he did not have that nurturing care that only biological parents can provide. 
    This is quite a bad rap on adoptive parents including Joseph the carpenter who is an adoptive father to Jesus.  This is not true.

In any case... Ross had a lot of challenges he needed to overcome.  He needed guidance to overcome them.  Like everybody else, he needed to repent and come to Jesus.  It's not too late for him to do so and it's not too late for Rodney, priesthoodpower, or anybody else within that sphere of influence to provide that guidance.  As the world turns... we act or are acted upon.  It is in how we respond that we can change to come closer to Christ, regardless of whether it's in the sunrise or sunset of mortal life and even beyond.

 

Every case is different. Simply because you know some that turned out well, doesn't mean that there aren't any who are set up for failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, brotherofJared said:

Every case is different. Simply because you know some that turned out well, doesn't mean that there aren't any who are set up for failure.

Sure.  But those reasons are not why they're set up for failure (if indeed they are).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share