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Anddenex

A Response to President Nelson's Address at BYU

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I have a friend who posted this on Facebook, and seeing the post specifies the author prays every Latter-day Saint will know (What I find intriguing/ironic are articles that talk about some form of mutual respect and understanding and yet still use the terms "Mormons") and come to understand.

Mods I understand if you feel this may need to be closed right away, I won't be offended. I am inclined to hear smarter point of views and expressions than myself regarding the post that a person who is praying that we as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will understand.

Quote

A Response to President Nelson’s BYU Address

What makes a heart beat and what makes a heart stop? As a physician, that’s what President Nelson shared learning about in his talk. Learning which eventually enabled him to perform successful open heart operations. He went on to share, “The same can be said of the law of gravity, and the laws of foil and lift that allow airplanes to fly. Each is an absolute truth. Doctors or pilots do not have the power to change those laws, but their understanding of them safeguards lives.”
As a mental health therapist, I too completed my graduate work with a focus on the heart, but in my case, on an aspect more specific and sometimes harder to see: What makes a LGBTQ heart beat and what makes it stop. Or in other words, what makes a LGBTQ heart want to live and what makes a LGBTQ heart want to die. As I am tasked with safegaurding LGBTQ lives against suicide, learning the principles that govern positive mental health outcomes for LGBTQ people has been imperative. Presently, I work with suicidal LGBTQ Mormons on a daily basis and I feel God with me in my work.
President Nelson cites looking to research and new experimentation in his graduate years as the foundation of his learning. My graduate learning about the LGBTQ heart took a similar focus. A growing body of research indicated that sexual orientation had a biological origin and that decades of trying to change people’s orientation or gender identity via reparative therapies not only didn’t work, in countless cases it caused considerable harm. Research had also begun to point to the incredible power of Family Acceptance of their LGBTQ children -- that accepting families reduced risk of LGBTQ suicide attempts by 8 times. Perhaps one of the most moving studies I learned about was MRI brain scans of people falling in love: Whether someone falls in love with someone of the opposite gender, or falls in love with someone of the same gender, the same parts of the brain bursting with dopamine light up. Recently, brain scans of transgender people have also shown their brains to be more similar to the gender identity they feel within themselves than their biological sex. Science is fantastically eye opening and these are all things we didn’t know a generation ago.
Two studies specific to LGBTQ Mormons also had a significant impact on my learning. One found that LGBTQ Mormons who took a single celibate or mixed orientation marriage path frequently had poor mental health while those who dated a same sex partner had significantly better mental health. The most eye opening part though was this: that LGBTQ Mormons who were able to integrate and live into both their queer identities and their spiritual identities as Latter Day Saints had the best mental health outcomes of all! In the second study ( a study that took place in the year following the implementation of the November 2015 policy) it was found that stunningly, 73.4% of LGBTQ Mormons participants had symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in connection to their religious experiences. The same symptoms most often associated with soldiers returning from war, refugees fleeing persecution or victims escaping domestic violence or sexual assault, were showing up in both post and still practicing LGBTQ Mormons at a rate 10 times the general population. That was mind blowing. In simplified summary, research was indicating that LGBTQ Mormons did best when they were able to healthily live into both their queer and religious identities at the same time, however this outcome was quite rare, and instead, an astronomical amount were suffering with symptoms of PTSD.

What makes a LGBTQ heart beat and what makes it want to stop?
As I sit with LGBTQ Mormons and post Mormons whose hearts are suicidal as an outgrowth of spiritual trauma, they get better as they are able to shed the negative messages they’ve internalized about being LGBTQ from both religion and society. They get better when their families come to shed these negative ideas as well and embrace them with open arms. They get better when their agency on how to move forward in their life path is honored as sacred ground and are celebrated in communities that affirm their choices. They get better when they distance themselves from negative messages or rejecting spaces while they are still healing. They get better when their family members and friends speak up in their behalf when they are being put down, left out or marginalized, no matter who the speaker is. They get better when their psychological trauma is treated with trauma specific therapies. They get better when they are able to build life partnerships and families that have the same meaningful bonds that every human heart seeks to form and nurture. They get better when they know they can take this journey with their God, not being told or internalizing that they will be cut off from God if they do so. They get better when they are able to lay hold on every good thing -- the part of them that is LGBTQ and the part of them that is spiritual; the part of them that wants to connect and the part of them that wants to contribute their many gifts.

Like doctors and pilots, I didn’t make up the principles that govern LGBTQ mental health -- we have merely discovered them and now use it daily to safegaurd lives. I pray with my feet everyday that Latter-day Saints will come to fully understand these discoveries too. We are all part of one body in Christ. May we see that each part however different is equally needed by us.

 

Edited by Anddenex

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There are all sorts of situations in life and even biological aberrations that could cause us to feel  traumatized, depressed and even suicidal. I think my brain would light up too if I could do all the things my “natural woman” would like to do and be told I’m not breaking a commandment. But that’s just not how life works. That goes against the way the Lord has set this world up.  I believe it’s a fantasy that LGBT folks should expect to respond to their passions and not be breaking the most fundamental of God’s laws. 

I’m sorry for the hurt that so many feel. I’m sorry they get so despondent that life doesn’t seem worth living. But here's an observation.  I have several male friends from high school who are single. I don’t know if they are gay but they are active members of the church. They have never been married and at this point (we all turned 60 this year) and chances are getting slimmer every year that they would marry if they aren't gay.  But they find joy in just life itself. One of them is the most generous, happy persons I know. He has the means to travel extensively and goes to theater and extravagant dinners often. But it’s clear that his greatest joy is in giving to others and trying to bring happiness to his friends and family. He’s gone through lots of tragedy with several brothers dying of a genetic disease. And he gets in there, rolling up his sleeves at fundraisers to find a cure. He has found some things to live for that have nothing to do with his love  life or lack thereof. . 

I appreciate that mental health workers feel so much sympathy for LGBT people who are suicidal. But maybe instead of trying so hard to coddle them as well as convince society that we have somehow betrayed them,  and let them do their thing without judgment, their patients would be better served with a plan to get the focus off their sexual orientation, off of the way they think people are oppressing them and turn it around. They could enable them to find other sources of happiness,  find service opportunities for them, find ways for them to forget about themselves. We know that true generosity and losing ourselves in the service of others lights up the brain and warms the heart in the best way. 

Edited by carlimac

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You can be obedient to the laws of god, which are motivated out of love, as well as be respectful to LGBTQ and their  experiences. But the second anyone suggests the belief that being LGBTQ is as acceptable to god as the heterosexual life is where the seeds of apostasy start. 

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"They get better when they distance themselves from negative messages or rejecting spaces while they are still healing."

This is not just for lgbtq in church but normal "sensitive" members too that feel they are not living up to their callings or church standards. Last month stk pres made his rounds in the wards and came down hard on us for the lack of missionary work. Every month in EQ they are forcing the ministering message due to the lack of results...its become a fear based environment that those who leave the church use as their reason.

Edited by priesthoodpower

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1 minute ago, priesthoodpower said:

Every month in EQ they are forcing the ministering message due to the lack of results...its become a fear based environment.

So...  your EQ isn’t fulfilling their assignments so the leadership is cracking down on it... and you are upset?

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16 minutes ago, Fether said:

So...  your EQ isn’t fulfilling their assignments so the leadership is cracking down on it... and you are upset?

Yes, because the problem is not the people, it is the system. Changing the name from H.T. to ministering was not the solution because obviously the results stayed the same. So why keep chastising the people?

..and i would never discuss the REAL ISSUES like this in EQ nor would any other member due to a risk of looking like a black sheep, instead most of us just nod our heads and agree with anything the EQ pres says. 

Edited by priesthoodpower

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6 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

the problem is not the people, it is the system

Uh what? The problem has always been the people. The change to ministering hasn’t done jack squat cause the people who didn’t do HT are the same as the people doing ministering. The hype was real for so long and to this day everyone is talking about how great of a change from “assignments” to ministering is... yet for the first time since the change I was contacted by my ministering member the other day. And without fail, every person I minister to has told me or tells me “you are the first person that has ever HT/ministered to us.”

If your EQ was active in their duties, there would be no need for this “fear based” system.

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So, @Anddenex, here are some observations in response to your post which apparently originates with one Laura Skaggs Dulin, a gay (nominally) LDS therapist from Southern California:

A growing body of research indicated that sexual orientation had a biological origin . . .

This is half-true.  It is well known that when you have identical twins with (theoretically) identical DNA, they will not necessarily have the same sexual orientation.  Ongoing research suggests that “epigenetics” has a role, and environmental factors have some influence here.  Dulin seems stuck in the decades-old “born-this-way” paradigm that ongoing research renders increasingly outdated. 

. . . and that decades of trying to change people’s orientation or gender identity via reparative therapies not only didn’t work, in countless cases it caused considerable harm.

When we identify “reparative therapies” as “trying to change what class of people a given patient is sexually attracted to”, that is accurate.  

But I’d be interested to hear Dulin believes that counseling and ministering intended to help a gay person live celibately, in accordance with the Law of Chastity, falls under the umbrella of “reparative therapies”. 

Research had also begun to point to the incredible power of Family Acceptance of their LGBTQ children -- that accepting families reduced risk of LGBTQ suicide attempts by 8 times.

I think most of us will agree with the proposition that when people are nice to us, we feel more valued and less inclined to end our own existence.  The question, of course, is what “acceptance” means in this particular context. 

Perhaps one of the most moving studies I learned about was MRI brain scans of people falling in love: Whether someone falls in love with someone of the opposite gender, or falls in love with someone of the same gender, the same parts of the brain bursting with dopamine light up. Recently, brain scans of transgender people have also shown their brains to be more similar to the gender identity they feel within themselves than their biological sex. Science is fantastically eye opening and these are all things we didn’t know a generation ago.

That feelings of love and affection are associated with dopamine, and that we’ll see surges of dopamine in the brain any time it is aroused by a person for whom we feel love and affection (or who elicits similar feelings of relaxation, contentment, and general well-being), is hardly surprising.   But is Dulin suggesting that *every* association, relationship, or activity that results in a dopamine release, should be accommodated and promoted?  Are we automatons, to act and be acted upon only as a result of the chemical compounds in our brains?  Or are we something more? 

Dulin is just plain lying regarding brain scans of transgender people.  It is true that scans show that some regions of transgender peoples’ brains are closer to the gender to which they identify with.  Other regions of the brains of transgender persons are more similar to the same brain regions in people of their own native sex, and still other characteristics of a transgender person’s brain seem to be more similar to other transgender folk than either to so-called “cisgender” males or females.  See, e.g.,  https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027.  More to the point—I’m sure that brain scans of my Down’s Syndrome cousin, or my autistic nephews, would show their brains to be much more like those of other autistic or Down’s Syndrome children.  I’ll even extend that to the bipolar personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, and antisocial personality disorder parents with whom I routinely work—I daresay their brains in certain ways are more physiologically and chemically similar to those of other persons with the same disorder, than to “normal” brains (whatever that means); and the origins of those differences may well lie more in nature than in nurture. 

But--so, what?  The fact that someone’s brain just IS a certain way, doesn’t mean that that’s the way Mother Nature (or, God) intended for the brain to work—any more than the fact that a child is born blind or deaf or without a leg or a foot, means that the child shouldn’t still aspire to do the things that sighted, hearing, or ambulatory children are able to do.

Two studies specific to LGBTQ Mormons also had a significant impact on my learning. One found that LGBTQ Mormons who took a single celibate or mixed orientation marriage path frequently had poor mental health while those who dated a same sex partner had significantly better mental health. The most eye opening part though was this: that LGBTQ Mormons who were able to integrate and live into both their queer identities and their spiritual identities as Latter Day Saints had the best mental health outcomes of all!

Quite  bluntly, it is not possible to integrate a (non-celibate) queer identity and a spiritual identity as a Latter-day Saint.  So what, are we defining as “mental health”, here?  Are we falling into the trap of accepting an active sex life as a sine qua non for mental health?  What ramifications does that have for people who are asexual?  Or the hated right-wing "incels"?  Or pedophiles?

In the second study ( a study that took place in the year following the implementation of the November 2015 policy) it was found that stunningly, 73.4% of LGBTQ Mormons participants had symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder in connection to their religious experiences. The same symptoms most often associated with soldiers returning from war, refugees fleeing persecution or victims escaping domestic violence or sexual assault, were showing up in both post and still practicing LGBTQ Mormons at a rate 10 times the general population. That was mind blowing. In simplified summary, research was indicating that LGBTQ Mormons did best when they were able to healthily live into both their queer and religious identities at the same time, however this outcome was quite rare, and instead, an astronomical amount were suffering with symptoms of PTSD.

This is probably referring to the Simmons study.  Notably, the most troubling manifestations of PTSD (having seen actual death/maiming/sexual violence, flashbacks, memory gaps, destructive behavior, hypervigilant “fight-or-flight” aggression, nightmares, dissociativeness) as outlined in the DSM-V (see, e.g.,  https://www.brainline.org/article/dsm-5-criteria-ptsd), either weren’t asked about at all, or were among the least-reported symptoms.  The symptoms that Simmons’ survey asked about that got responses in the double-digit percentiles included:

--“I felt emotionally numb”

--“I felt discouraged about the future”

--“I had little interest in being around others, particularly from the LDS community”

--“I was less active than usual”

--“I felt discouraged about the future”

--“I avoided people, places, or things that reminded me of my religious beliefs or experiences”

--“I wanted to avoid aspects of my religious beliefs or experiences”

--“My heart started pounding when I thought about my religious beliefs or experiences”

--“Reminders of my religious beliefs or experiences upset me”

--“I thought about my religious beliefs or experiences when I didn’t intend to”

--“I had trouble sleeping”

--“I felt jumpy”

--“I had trouble concentrating”

--“I was easily annoyed”

--“I expected something bad to happen”.

In other words:  The respondents' trials/sins made them sad, and the survey’s author gave them a means to re-characterize that sadness as Church-inflicted PTSD.

It’s also worth noting that there are also some aspects of the sample that make the survey pool . . . suspicious (the pool generally claimed to have received more ecclesiastical warnings about homosexual orientation than homosexual behavior, a distinction the Church has been making openly for over thirty years now).

As I sit with LGBTQ Mormons and post Mormons whose hearts are suicidal as an outgrowth of spiritual trauma, they get better as they are able to shed the negative messages they’ve internalized about being LGBTQ from both religion and society. They get better . . .

I think we’ve established already that Ms. Dulin (and her allies) has crafted a peculiar definition of “trauma” that is deliberately crafted in such a way as to prescribe a particular method of “getting better”, to the exclusion of the method our Lord worked out in Gethsemane and on the cross.

If it’s suicide Ms. Dulin seeks to prevent, maybe she can focus on convincing her clients that they can have worth and meaning and joy in their lives even if they aren’t having regular sexual experiences.  That was an idea that was pretty much taken for granted up until the last two or three decades . . . which coincidentally, is when ALL suicides (not just Mormon ones) reached epidemic levels. 

Like doctors and pilots, I didn’t make up the principles that govern LGBTQ mental health -- we have merely discovered them and now use it daily to safegaurd lives.

Except that Ms. Dulin isn't safeguarding lives.  The people who have come to her and her "allies" for your help are still killing themselves, in droves.  So are LGBTQ folk who were never Mormons.  So, in point of fact, are people across pretty much every stratum of American society (though statistically, it seems, middle- and upper-class whites more than most—which is interesting, since they’re the ones most able to afford the therapeutic interventions Ms. Dulin and her colleagues are peddling). 

Quite bluntly, the statistical evidence indicates that Ms. Dulin's pet principles *GAVE* us the suicide epidemic.  They will not heal it.  And when it comes to taking advice about how to deal with these issues, I think I'll take advice from the folks who don't make more money if the suicide epidemic gets worse; thank you very much.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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39 minutes ago, Fether said:

The hype was real for so long and to this day everyone is talking about how great of a change from “assignments” to ministering is... yet for the first time since the change I was contacted by my ministering member the other day. And without fail, every person I minister to has told me or tells me “you are the first person that has ever HT/ministered to us.”

Although this thread isn't about ministering/HT, sadly the reality of this statement is too true. Since the change I have had only one ministering companionship reach out to me. I have had new ministering brethren who have never contacted me, nor have they let me know they care or have a "more genuine care and concern for their brethren."

At least now, there is no hiding our love, because how we now serve as ministering brethren is a direct reflection of our ability to honor the first two great commandments, and we can't hide behind the stigma "You are only doing this because of duty."

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3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, @Anddenex, here are some observations in response to your post which apparently originates with one Laura Skaggs Dulin, a gay (nominally) LDS therapist from Southern California:

Thanks JAG. I don't personally agree with the authors sentiment and thoughts. I wanted to hear what others thoughts (before sharing my personal thoughts) pertaining to this response to our Prophets speech at BYU. I thought the speech was spot on and something our Father in heaven needs us to hear and understand (or hearken unto).

My limited knowledge of this type of research reminds me of a class at BYU that debated free will vs. determinism, or free will vs. behaviorism (total control by our genetics). The article I read was in support of free will and provided all the examples. The Behaviorist then took those same results and showed how it was actually evidence for total behaviorism (we are products of our genetics, we have no free will).

So, when someone begins to state facts pertaining to this type of "theory" my experience brings me back to this learning, which tells me this individual is believing the results actually highlight her truth, not reality. When I say reality I am meaning, we are living in a Telestial world. If a person desires to live and be apart of a Telestial lifestyle -- and that is who they are -- of course they are going to be happier if everyone says, "Hey, its OK. You are who you are. God made you this way, ergo it is good -- eat, drink, and be merry"! The Telestial mentality doesn't like the word "repentance" which means you can change "wrong" behavior or behavior that is against God's law.

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1 hour ago, priesthoodpower said:

Yes, and the solution is always a system.

Back to this lgbtq topic, the gospel of jesus christ is a system, im confident in our current and future prophets that we will find solutions.

I agree, as long as what your saying doesn’t include a change in Core doctrinal beliefs about our identity and God’s plan for families.

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

I agree, as long as what your saying doesn’t include a change in Core doctrinal beliefs about our identity and God’s plan for families.

The doctrine can change too..if it comes from the prophet via God. We went from old testament to New testament to the Restoration, polygamy came and went, blacks and the priesthood....all were updates to the system.

I think that the prophets prior to Nelson were kind of like reinforcers of the law where Nelson seems to be more solutions oriented to the problems of the day. Who's to say that God is sitting and waiting for the bretheren to ask about a solution for our lgbtq brothers and sisters.

If polygamy (one man + multiple women) is a celestial law. Whos to say a potential solution for a lesbian couple is to add a man to their relationship? They are now able to procreate and fullfill Gods plan, or two gay men need to add a woman? I understand the sexual orientation problem here but cmon lets start thinking of love oriented solutions instead of fearful punishments and condemnation.

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9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Although this thread isn't about ministering/HT, sadly the reality of this statement is too true. Since the change I have had only one ministering companionship reach out to me. I have had new ministering brethren who have never contacted me, nor have they let me know they care or have a "more genuine care and concern for their brethren."

People don't really change @Anddenex. If someone wasn't going to do their home teaching, they aren't going to do it no matter what it is called. 

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Sigh...  Per the quote in the OP I have a heterosexual identity and a church identity.  And they need to live in harmony with each other for my mental health... that seems reasonable.

However my church identity puts real limits on my heterosexual identity.  Many aspects it does not care about but two it very much does.  The first is the Law of Chasity and the second is Priesthood or Relief Society.  Both those force my expression of sexual identity into certain channels.  For example my church identity does not allow me to have sex with multiple partners. Yet one does not have to look far to see many people seeing that as part of their sexual identity.

If I were to do so I would experience mental trauma as various aspects of my church identity came into conflict with this expression of my sexual identity.  This trauma would lead to me deciding which was the most important part of my identity, which part I wanted more.  This test is exactly why we are here to determine if we will follow God or if we will follow something else.

Now for me my sexual identity and my church identity aren't in that much conflict... that just means that my testing is going to be in another area.  For those of the LETTER Soup group their sexual identity (whatever it is) is going to be in more conflict.  And that conflict is going to cause trauma, which we can and should be sensitive to.  But in that sensitivity and desire to help we should not try to undo the test they have to face.  They to have to make a choice on what is most important, on whom they will follow just like we do.

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A case study:  There was a pornstar of long ago who was raised by hippies in a "free love" environment.  What this meant is that she was molested throughout her childhood by both men and women.  She also had free sex throughout her childhood with other children (both sexes).  It was no wonder, then, that she felt right at home in the sex industry.

People who knew her and those who interviewed her found her to be a very happy and pleasant person who was well spoken and polite.  She seemed to show a radiance about her.  Anyone in her presence was awed at how happy she seemed.

Now, I would ask: What if, one day, she were somehow to learn about the Law of Chastity?  What if on that day the Spirit testified into her soul that it was a true principle?  How would she feel about all the sin she had committed in her life?  Well, it would be partially blunted by the fact that she was ignorant of it for all her life.  She simply didn't know better.  She could live a better life.

What if, instead, she was taught about the Law of Chastity as a child, and she knew about it.  But having been raised in such an environment, she continued to break that Law?  Was there much hope for her to actually resist all the temptation and social pressure around her?  After years of this, how much PTSD do you think she might feel?

So, the argument (even if true) about the PTSD seems like we're not keeping our eye on the ball.  If someone has been sinning all their life and they desperately want to keep sinning, you don't think they'll feel a tremendous amount of trama?  Well, DUH-UH!!!

This is a propaganda piece, whether her studies are true or not, up-to-date or not.  It focuses us on the wrong problem.

Hand out condoms so that teenagers can have sex without V.D. or unwanted pregnancies.  Yeah, that's much more important than the Law of Chastity.

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23 minutes ago, Mores said:

A case study:  There was a pornstar of long ago who was raised by hippies in a "free love" environment.  What this meant is that she was molested throughout her childhood by both men and women.  She also had free sex throughout her childhood with other children (both sexes).  It was no wonder, then, that she felt right at home in the sex industry.

People who knew her and those who interviewed her found her to be a very happy and pleasant person who was well spoken and polite.  She seemed to show a radiance about her.  Anyone in her presence was awed at how happy she seemed.

Now, I would ask: What if, one day, she were somehow to learn about the Law of Chastity?  What if on that day the Spirit testified into her soul that it was a true principle?  How would she feel about all the sin she had committed in her life?  Well, it would be partially blunted by the fact that she was ignorant of it for all her life.  She simply didn't know better.  She could live a better life.

What if, instead, she was taught about the Law of Chastity as a child, and she knew about it.  But having been raised in such an environment, she continued to break that Law?  Was there much hope for her to actually resist all the temptation and social pressure around her?  After years of this, how much PTSD do you think she might feel?

So, the argument (even if true) about the PTSD seems like we're not keeping our eye on the ball.  If someone has been sinning all their life and they desperately want to keep sinning, you don't think they'll feel a tremendous amount of trama?  Well, DUH-UH!!!

This is a propaganda piece, whether her studies are true or not, up-to-date or not.  It focuses us on the wrong problem.

Hand out condoms so that teenagers can have sex without V.D. or unwanted pregnancies.  Yeah, that's much more important than the Law of Chastity.

 It’s a nasty case of moving the goal posts. We are talking about living according to God’s eternal laws and exaltation. They are talking about feeling happy as if feeling happy and fulfilled is our designed purposed.

Edited by Fether

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8 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The doctrine can change too..if it comes from the prophet via God. We went from old testament to New testament to the Restoration, polygamy came and went, blacks and the priesthood....all were updates to the system.

I think that the prophets prior to Nelson were kind of like reinforcers of the law where Nelson seems to be more solutions oriented to the problems of the day. Who's to say that God is sitting and waiting for the bretheren to ask about a solution for our lgbtq brothers and sisters.

If polygamy (one man + multiple women) is a celestial law. Whos to say a potential solution for a lesbian couple is to add a man to their relationship? They are now able to procreate and fullfill Gods plan, or two gay men need to add a woman? I understand the sexual orientation problem here but cmon lets start thinking of love oriented solutions instead of fearful punishments and condemnation.

 assuming that it isn’t against Gods laws. I think we can both agree that if homosexual acts of any kind are against God’s laws, there are no changes to be had.

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@Anddenex

I am very suspicious of anyone (especially in the mental health industry) that thinks the solution to anyone's mental health is dependent on others.  I believe the official term is codependency.   Nere is a news flash - If someone wants to fit in somewhere - all they have to do is fit in. No one in this world would ever be happy if it was up to them to make everybody happy.

I would make one other point - this has to do with crime - or at least what we will pass as a law to define crime.  The point is that the vast majority of crimes that are committed have someone supporting the person committing the crime and telling them it is okay and that they still love, like or whatever and still want to be around them.  In general the only way a person can learn that a behavior is harmful to relationships - is when they get rejected for it.  And so we have a mental health professional trying to make us feel bad about family life styles and behaving like the future of the human race is dependent on supporting family relationships that propagate future families. 

I believe the hardest lesson in life is the realization that you are responsible for yours.

 

The Traveler

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10 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

If polygamy (one man + multiple women) is a celestial law. Whos to say a potential solution for a lesbian couple is to add a man to their relationship? They are now able to procreate and fullfill Gods plan, or two gay men need to add a woman? I understand the sexual orientation problem here but cmon lets start thinking of love oriented solutions instead of fearful punishments and condemnation.

Is that what we're doing here? Thinking up "love-oriented solutions"? Then what, PP? Do we instruct God on the brilliant conclusions we've reached, and inform him that lesbian couples should be allowed in celestial glory by marrying them both to some guy? "Okay, God, we've decided how reality should be structured, so we expect you to now change the very nature of reality and existence to accomodate our brilliant ideas." Is that what we're supposed to do?

Truth exists independent of what you may believe. God teaches truth. He shows us the way. It is not our place to instruct God (or his chosen leaders) in what they are supposed to do. It is our place to learn from them and implement their teachings in our lives.

The author quoted by the OP is just another voice urging the Saints toward apostasy. He should be summarily ignored.

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10 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

The doctrine can change too..if it comes from the prophet via God. We went from old testament to New testament to the Restoration, polygamy came and went, blacks and the priesthood....all were updates to the system.

I think that the prophets prior to Nelson were kind of like reinforcers of the law where Nelson seems to be more solutions oriented to the problems of the day. Who's to say that God is sitting and waiting for the bretheren to ask about a solution for our lgbtq brothers and sisters.

If polygamy (one man + multiple women) is a celestial law. Whos to say a potential solution for a lesbian couple is to add a man to their relationship? They are now able to procreate and fullfill Gods plan, or two gay men need to add a woman? I understand the sexual orientation problem here but cmon lets start thinking of love oriented solutions instead of fearful punishments and condemnation.

If it’s true that the pre-Nelson prophets were unfeeling heelish “enforcers” whereas Nelson is lovingly seeking solutions that God is ready and willing to provide (in a libertine direction, natch), then what are we to make of the fact that Nelson has openly said he IS seeking divine solutions, and that the November 2015 policy was one of them, and that the law of chastity itself is not going to change?

This notion of solving the problem by adding men to lesbian relationships betrays either a gross misunderstanding of what lesbian women want (they don’t WANT a covenant with a man, they want a covenant—and approved sexual relations—with another woman) or else a pornified idea of what polygamy actually entailed (there was never a covenant relationship between the various women a polygamist was married to—polygamy was a series of marriages that each bound one man to one woman, not a group marriage binding one man and all his wives into a single community; and sexual threesomes or lesbian interactions between plural wives were never OK).

Let’s not conflate “love-oriented” solutions with “sex-oriented” solutions.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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8 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Let’s not conflate “love-oriented” solutions with “sex-oriented” solutions.

And lets not over step our stewardship either.  The prophet is the one to look for solutions church-wide, the Stake President stake-wide, the Bishop ward-wide, Individual families, individual family-wide.

I see no use in trying to "fix the church" beyond the limits of the stewardship God has given me.. More then that is ark steadying territory

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

And lets not over step our stewardship either.  The prophet is the one to look for solutions church-wide, the Stake President stake-wide, the Bishop ward-wide, Individual families, individual family-wide.

I see no use in trying to "fix the church" beyond the limits of the stewardship God has given me.. More then that is ark steadying territory

I’m sure you get this already, but I want to clarify for the reader. A Father’s “Revelation” does not overwrite clear direction from the prophet. Personal revelation may direct us on how to apply doctrine to our lives, but not to dictate what is and isnt true

Just a personal experience here. I have two younger siblings. Both were anti social and not very exciting to be around. Over the last year, one came out as gay and the other as transgender. A sudden change occurred and both became very social and so fun to be around. My trans sibling struggled heavily with social anxiety, depression, and saw a therapist regularly. Since she came out, she has been so o credibly happy, has made tons of friends, and has gone to more social events I. The last month than her entire like previous. If you knew them growing up, it would be moronic to say that their transition and opening up did not make them 10x happier.

This experience does NOT give me or my family ANY authority to speak on behalf of God. Through this, my parents still hold true to the doctrine, they don’t pressure my siblings toward any gospel principles that conflict with their “identity”, but still hold a high standard of gospel living in the home. My mother, a school counselor that specialized in alternative high schools for less fortunate youth, joined a parents of LGBTQ children group where she participates and is involved in. She does not believe the way everyone else does, but wants to make sure she doesn’t drive her children away from the family (side note, they went to the bishop before hand and asked if doing this was in conflict with any of the temple recommend interview questions). This is an example of revelation from the prophet and personal revelation leading a family playing hand in hand. Nothing they did was in conflict with the church teachings and we have an incredibly happy family and the topic of religion doesn’t really come up, and when it does, there is a mutual understanding and respect of each others experience.

Edited by Fether

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