mordorbund Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 https://thirdhour.org/blog/faith/ces-letter/ Quote But when it’s dissected, the CES Letter is nothing more than a common “fallacious debate tactic:” It’s called the Gish Gallop ... It’s easy to make claims. It’s harder to prove claims wrong. For example, I can make the claim that the sun has a core made out of molten gold. Prove me wrong! As you might imagine, the reason why that’s wrong may not be that easy to explain and substantiate in one equally as succinct sentence. The same applies to the claims in the CES Letter. If you’re not willing to do the (sometimes intensive) research associated with the claims, then they indeed appear quite threatening. But if you take the time to tackle each argument individually, there’s light at the end of the tunnel. Don’t be intimidated by the claims, or the work necessary to understanding the refutation. Thanks @dsnell. This was a good read. Fether, Anddenex, Vort and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 I read that one and also thought it was pretty good. Fether and Anddenex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 You should see some of the comments he is responding to. Some of these gents are really protective of their "scripture"! Midwest LDS, Vort and Backroads 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 13 hours ago, Anddenex said: You should see some of the comments he is responding to. Some of these gents are really protective of their "scripture"! link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 3 hours ago, mirkwood said: link? Comment section on the article page (link in OP) Anddenex and Vort 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 6 hours ago, mirkwood said: link? https://thirdhour.org/blog/faith/ces-letter/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 I don't show a link to the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dprh Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 2 hours ago, mirkwood said: I don't show a link to the comments. If you scroll to the bottom, below the article, it shows comments. I'm looking on a PC. Might be different on mobile devices. mirkwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, mirkwood said: I don't show a link to the comments. Scroll down to the bottom of the article. On the mouse (the thing you have I your hand) there are two clickers, and between the two clickers there is a wheel you can spin. Soo the wheel toward you. The screen will then slowly move in a downward direction. Eventually you will reach a section that says “comments”. it is here that you will see a series of names, or pronouns, beneath said pronouns will be series of letters, spaces, and punctuations outlining individual opinions of readers. Beneath those you will see a series of other letters spelling out “David Snell” where you can read the author’s response to the comments... ...🙄old people🥴... Edited September 26, 2019 by Fether mirkwood and Maureen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 Yea, I've scrolled to the bottom. No comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 Which is disappointing. The comments sections are often better then the articles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeedleinA Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 On 9/25/2019 at 4:31 PM, Anddenex said: You should see some of the comments he is responding to. Some of these gents are really protective of their "scripture"! Good job adding your thoughts to the comment section and showing support for the article, which was good by the way. A lot of upset people, upset that not all the world blindly bows to the CES letter. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest LDS Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 (edited) That was an excellent article. I love how he tears apart the use of the gish gallop technique, but at the same time talks about the importance of faith for things we do not have the answer for. I remember having to deal with drivel like the CES letter on a regular basis as a missionary. For me, it was always a question of "well what do you want me to do if I leave my faith?". I mean no insult, but not one of the learned pastors I met understood the scriptures as well as me, and I was just a young punk of a missionary. If you were to succeed at destroying my faith, then it would do nothing but lead me into a soul destroying atheism. If the truth does not exist in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after all of my powerful, soul filling spiritual experiences, then truth does not exist at all, and I certainly would not join whatever born again lite church the Antis want me too. I'm glad there are people like Brother Snell fighting the good fight online, and protecting vulnerable members from this trash. It saddens me to think of any member traveling that road of loneliness and anguish. Edited October 14, 2019 by Midwest LDS Backroads, NeedleinA and Anddenex 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 53 minutes ago, mirkwood said: Yea, I've scrolled to the bottom. No comments. Do you have ad or java script blockers? Because the comments are hosted on a disqus plugin that can be easily blocked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted September 26, 2019 Report Share Posted September 26, 2019 The comments are worthless nit-picking of the sort, "Gish Gallop applies ONLY to timed debates!!!!! So you're WRONG!!!!!" Not worth reading, seriously. If you're an honest person, even if you disbelieve LDS doctrine, you will find the comments useless and duplicitous. Anddenex, Fether and Midwest LDS 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 The thing about the CES letter is that for any of the questions to be valid, you have to reject a core doctrine or principle taught. When you accept the gospel as is and as taught by our leaders, everything falls neatly into place EVERY time. If you believe that prophets are infallible, that miracles don’t happen today, that old/New Testament prophets are more important and more “right” than modern prophets, or you hold cultural teachings at the same level as doctrine... you will likely find fault, as did the author, with the church as you read through it. The biggest tragedy of the CES letter is that the Jeremy’s story (the way he paints it at least) is a complete joke and overshadows the whole thing, it is a stain on what could have been a fantastic anti-Mormon piece of literature, but I can’t help but be reminded at how ridiculous of a person he is as I read this compiled list of “questions”. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordorbund Posted September 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 While we're on this topic, some years ago Dan Peterson shared Some Reflections on That Letter to a CES Director. He also brings up the Gish Gallop, but what really gets his dander up is that the author claims these are issues that affected his testimony but doesn't provide any indication that he grappled with the answers that have been provided. It's like he took a punch and then lied down and accepted his demise. Quote There’s been a lot written on these sorts of topics [Book of Mormon anachronisms], and many of them by John Sorenson (one of the reasons I chose this image) [refers to Power Point slide]. But the author of the letter seems unaware of those things. He doesn’t engage them in any event. I can imagine somebody saying, “The evidence doesn’t persuade me,” but what bothers me is to suggest there is no evidence, there are no counterarguments; that bothers me, and that doesn’t, to me, show a serious engagement with the data. ... Polygamy is a big issue for the Letter to a CES Director too, but what’s noteworthy to me is the things that are not engaged. And I just mention a couple of recent things, but these represent work that’s been done over the past decade or so on polygamy. This is a book by Newell Bringhurst and Craig Foster called Persistence of Polygamy. At least three of the essays in that particular volume are directly relevant to charges made in the letter, but it doesn’t address them. Here are the three volumes of Brian Hales’ massive work on Joseph Smith’s polygamy, again, essentially unaddressed. Here’s the website that Brian and Laura Hales are now doing where a lot of these issues are discussed [josephsmithspolygamy.org]. No engagement with this or with anything, as far as I can see, that they put forward. Anddenex, Midwest LDS, Fether and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 20 minutes ago, mordorbund said: While we're on this topic, some years ago Dan Peterson shared Some Reflections on That Letter to a CES Director. He also brings up the Gish Gallop, but what really gets his dander up is that the author claims these are issues that affected his testimony but doesn't provide any indication that he grappled with the answers that have been provided. It's like he took a punch and then lied down and accepted his demise. At age 21 I read the entire CES letter in a single night. I blew through many of the questions with easy as they seemed mindless, nit picky canon fodder that an 8 year old could rationalize. Within 3 days I had come to logical and perfectly sound doctrinal explanations to many of the harder questions. In sales, people buy on emotion and justify the buy on logic. The same goes here. People leave the church for something, and use the CES letter or “history” as the “logic” to leave. NeedleinA, Midwest LDS and Anddenex 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Vort said: The comments are worthless nit-picking of the sort, "Gish Gallop applies ONLY to timed debates!!!!! So you're WRONG!!!!!" Not worth reading, seriously. If you're an honest person, even if you disbelieve LDS doctrine, you will find the comments useless and duplicitous. I meant entertaining. I have an off sense of humor at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirkwood Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 I just tried chrome and they show up. I'll read them tomorrow. Anddenex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anddenex Posted September 27, 2019 Report Share Posted September 27, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, mordorbund said: While we're on this topic, some years ago Dan Peterson shared Some Reflections on That Letter to a CES Director. He also brings up the Gish Gallop, but what really gets his dander up is that the author claims these are issues that affected his testimony but doesn't provide any indication that he grappled with the answers that have been provided. It's like he took a punch and then lied down and accepted his demise. Nice, that link provided is thorough and detailed explanation of Joseph Smith and polygamy. Thanks. Edited September 27, 2019 by Anddenex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gallant Pioneer Posted October 14, 2019 Report Share Posted October 14, 2019 (edited) The work of Jeremy and Dehlin was some of the first literature that introduced me to the church. 99% there and just awaiting my baptism. Also, without making this into an attack but I want to say this anyway. Jeremy is a funny lad in my eyes. I remember when John Dehlin interviewed him on his departure from the church and he was sitting on the sofa with his arms stretched out and legs crossed looking proud of himself. A bit like the time he left the church and walked out into the parking lot where he was flanked by sound systems microphones and camera then announced that he "didn't want to do this" Sure... Thankfully, as more time goes by their followers have started waking up to the cult of personality that surrounds them with those two and their ilk. The ex mormon business model is an easy one.. Pitch up at the exit doors of the wards, set up some tables with leaflets and merch (or cruises) then tell any or every disgruntled member what they want to hear. Point to New horizons with one hand whilst picking their pockets with the other. Luckily I came in through the back door and wondered who the weirdos were and now am joining the church... God.... He moves in the most mysterious ways. Edited October 14, 2019 by Gallant Pioneer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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