Worship in a different church


prisonchaplain
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24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Indeed. One day, many years from now, I will sit you down and explain to you the difference between "heavy metal" and "stuff they play at church." 

Well, I'm pretty sure what I heard could have matched Metallica or Megadeth pertaining to guitar and drums. ;)

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7 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Well, I'm pretty sure what I heard could have matched Metallica or Megadeth pertaining to guitar and drums. ;)

You gotta tell me the name of that church then. I'd attend just for the music. 

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2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Welcome to the Worship Wars. Most large churches decided a couple of decades ago that there was a crisis amongst the young, and that all efforts must be made to retain. Let the elders grit their teeth. They are mature, and can deal. We must keep the youngins! Still, as a pastor, before I would say the music interrupted the Spirit--or the worship--I would want to see what most in the congregation are doing. Are the 'rockin' to the tunes? Are they being entertained? Or...are they worshipping. It is sometimes amazing to hear music I consider a bit much, but then to see most--yes, especially the young--lifting hands to the heavens, mouthing the words, with apparent adoration of the LORD as their countenances. Then I look to the words, and often they are actually sound and solid and deep. Sometimes it is hard to discern...especially when there seem to be fingernails rubbing against chalkboards. :cool:

This reminds me of a little argument by two religious individuals discussing worshiping in their different congregations.  Realizing they were not going to come to a consensus one finally said to the other - "I guess we each worship G-d in different ways - You worship him in your way and I in worship him in his."

Scripture makes reference to a false kind of worship - the example is a worship of words that may be sound, solid and deep but a heart that is far far away from G-d and his "likeness".  I am somewhat concerned by this "heart" concept in scripture because following what is in one's heart seems to have a much different meaning in our modern age than anciently when the scripture was created.  Nowadays it seems to be what makes one feel emotionally good or excited in the moment.  But anciently, I believe it was more about one's essence and overall gut character - not just in a moment but constant - day and night and in joy or sorrow.

There is another example in scripture in a parable called the parable of the sower.  In this parable the light of Christ is compared to seed that is planted.  In this parable it is not the goodness (appeal) of the seed seed but the effort put into the ground that is prepared for the seed that determines if the seed takes root.  Some think that the trick is getting the seed to start to grow - without taking into account that the seed requires deep roots to sustain and continue growth when circumstance becomes difficult (not necessary to the pleasure or ease).  Thus I am of the mind that the seed (things of G-d - including music) is not altered for pleasing the ground it falls on but that the ground is altered (without rocks and weeds) to make place for the seed that is true worship.  When it comes to music - harmony is critical to a joyful noise.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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Music in the church is a matter of constant conversation. Elders nearly always believe the music of the young is shallow, flippant, irreverent and downright unworthy. Then it becomes the standard fare, and a new generation comes up to find that what had been cutting-edge, energizing, and deeply moving has become stale and only barely tolerable. My church offers 'blended worship,' and when the older hymns and choruses are sung, what a joy to see our elders light up. Likewise, when a new song that resonates well is rendered, I imagine the elders are pleased to see our youth really enter in to the worship. @Traveler does well to call for a discerning. To me the question is simple. Does the music glorify God and point us toward Him, or does it merely offer fun and seem overly centered on the artists?

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On 10/2/2019 at 3:00 PM, prisonchaplain said:

Music in the church is a matter of constant conversation. Elders nearly always believe the music of the young is shallow, flippant, irreverent and downright unworthy. Then it becomes the standard fare, and a new generation comes up to find that what had been cutting-edge, energizing, and deeply moving has become stale and only barely tolerable. My church offers 'blended worship,' and when the older hymns and choruses are sung, what a joy to see our elders light up. Likewise, when a new song that resonates well is rendered, I imagine the elders are pleased to see our youth really enter in to the worship. @Traveler does well to call for a discerning. To me the question is simple. Does the music glorify God and point us toward Him, or does it merely offer fun and seem overly centered on the artists?

Thanks for your response.  I wonder if the core of this discussion goes far beyond music and has elements that apply to all forms of worship.  One of the interesting conundrums of life is dealing with counterfeits.  It would seem that throughout history much good has come from individuals skewed from worship and just about all the evil on a large scale (war and other abuses of power) are committed by those within the cadre of once known covenants - example being the Pharisees as an outgrowth of the Abrahamic covenant. 

And then Paul counseled that anything virtuous, lovely and of good report should be incorporated into our worship.  I am thinking that it may not be the music - but how it is used and what is in the heart.  Maybe it is possible that both those that reject and those that endorse are correct.  

In the late 1950's when I was a youth, Utah would celebrate the Mormon pioneers settling Utah in what was called the "Days of 47 Parade".  But in my youth something showed up in the parade that had not been there before.  Marching with the high school bands were young ladies, marching and twirling batons.  Many church going Utahns were quite upset  that the young lady baton twirlers wearing "skimpy" outfits showing way to much skin.  Elder David O McKay was the prophet and president of the church at the time.  He was asked for his opinion.  His opinion was that he thought the presentation in the parade was beautiful.

I am not sure if there is a one size fits all that cannot be counterfeited recognition of what is of G-d and what is of man.

 

The Traveler

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On 10/2/2019 at 12:26 PM, MormonGator said:

Indeed. One day, many years from now, I will sit you down and explain to you the difference between "heavy metal" and "stuff they play at church." 

Or something in between:
 

Maybe I should repent after posting this though.  

Edited by Scott
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4 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm probably stating the obvious, but @Fether's video was probably from a United Pentecostal Church service or conference (they are Pentecostal and dress conservative)...and the music was dubbed in ... We all knew this, right? 🤨

Don’t be silly, we all know that was a raw video of an Assembly of God service ;)

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On 9/29/2019 at 5:59 PM, prisonchaplain said:

So... have you ever been to a non-LDS service, and what were your impressions?

My dorky hobby is actually visiting different churches just to see and better understand/love, so I've been to many :)

Almost always it's a very positive experience, that helps me better understand other people's beliefs (and better love them).  It also helps me better understand my own beliefs, whether that's from agreeing with another or a thoughtful disagree.  I always leave with an impression 1) how human people everywhere are, and 2) of how big and glorious God is.

 

 

Thinking of some memorable specific experiences.... there was the first time I visited a mosque for Islamic prayer services.  I committed literally every social taboo possible, but the people there were still gracious.  Several of the women in particular were beautiful and so caring for others.   The message itself was... honestly kind of vanilla as to not have much to commit about it anyway good or bad.  

 

 

I remember an inter-faith Christmas singing service in town, hosted in a church my toddler nicknamed "Jesus's castle".  It was a beautiful old Episcopalian cathedral: one of those with stone architecture, the stain glass windows, and carefully crafted acoustics so that you hear everything coming from the front.  The event was a huge smashing hit-- I showed up with my toddler 20 minutes early and the place was so packed that there wasn't even standing room available.  Wondering what to do, one of the ushers saw us, and said "if she can sit on your lap, we have an open seat".  Very grateful, I am led to the front row.  We sit down, as a soon as the first song starts my very shy toddler starts SCREAMING.  You remember what I said about those carefully crafted acoustics?  

So embarrassing.  

Honestly though, everyone got a laugh out of it.  Some things are very universal.  And we all had a fantastic time singing and feeling the Spirit.

 

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