Are you blessed or lucky?


TheRedHen
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I was sitting in a room not long ago with some older relatives who were all raised out in the Uinta Basin.  As a result they all get checks from oil companies on a monthly basis - sometimes small and sometimes pretty big.  Over the years they've accumulated some pretty impressive bank accounts - particularly when considering that they all had pretty menial jobs in my opinion.  As I listened I was amused as the conversation turned spiritual - as in how blessed they are to receive this money from the Lord.  One even said that she feels like the oil prices go up according to how faithful the recipients are in paying tithing.  I have my views on this and my question is therefore rhetorical, but does anyone really believe that God sends oil money to the faithful, or is it the luck of the birthplace draw?  It's almost like they're equating the non-oil people to the fence-sitting spirits in the pre-existence who were destined to be born in Africa.  Thoughts?

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22 minutes ago, TheRedHen said:

I was sitting in a room not long ago with some older relatives who were all raised out in the Uinta Basin.  As a result they all get checks from oil companies on a monthly basis - sometimes small and sometimes pretty big.  Over the years they've accumulated some pretty impressive bank accounts - particularly when considering that they all had pretty menial jobs in my opinion.  As I listened I was amused as the conversation turned spiritual - as in how blessed they are to receive this money from the Lord.  One even said that she feels like the oil prices go up according to how faithful the recipients are in paying tithing.  I have my views on this and my question is therefore rhetorical, but does anyone really believe that God sends oil money to the faithful, or is it the luck of the birthplace draw?  It's almost like they're equating the non-oil people to the fence-sitting spirits in the pre-existence who were destined to be born in Africa.  Thoughts?

I'm a firm believer in praising God for the good things in my life. If I were receiving oil money, I would feel like it was reblessin from him, as all good things come from God. He also tells us in the Doctrine and Covenants that he is displeased if we do not recognize his hand in all things. That does not neccessarily say anything about me individually though. God makes it rain on the just and the unjust alike, so while oil money is a blessing it doesn't mean I'm (generic) any better or more worthy than any of God's other children.

Quite the contrary, God rewards the faithful with everything he has. That means even the poorest, most humble saint in Africa will one day receive everything, and no longer be poor. In fact I would argue, while worth being grateful for, that oil money is more of a trial. Do the saints who have received this blessing do anything good with that money? Do they pay extra fast offerings, look for brothers and sisters in need, and bless others? Or do the merely use the money to buy themselves more comforts? That is the ultimate question in my view.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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2 hours ago, TheRedHen said:

I have my views on this and my question is therefore rhetorical, but does anyone really believe that God sends oil money to the faithful, or is it the luck of the birthplace draw?

I don't think a comprehensive answer to your question is as cut-and-dried as one might think. Consider: Why are we born where we are, and to the families we get? Is it just luck of the draw? Does God make assignments? Do we make individual agreements, covenants, and the like in premortality? is there some larger familial structure that precedes this life and accounts for where/when/to whom we're born?

I suspect with a celestial view, we will see that there is little or no "luck" or "random chance" involved in anything we experience in life, even if that's what it looks like from our mortal perspective. If this is the case, then it can be argued that God is in some sense responsible for their birth advantages. I suppose it's better that the render the credit and glory to God rather than put it on themselves: "I'm rich by birth because I am a more righteous and holy person than others." I think when you give God the credit for your advantages rather than imagine it's your own brilliance that gave them to you, that's probably always a good thing.

Btw, yours is not a rhetorical question. A "rhetorical question" is a question asked as a rhetorical device—it's not really a question at all, but a statement phrased as a question. "Is there any politician more dishonest than <insert politician's name>?" "How could anyone have tried harder than you tried, you poor dear?" "Are you really stupid enough to believe a fool like her?" That sort of thing.

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One should praise and acknowledge God's hand in all things.

However one should not make unrighteous judgements, and that is exactly what happens when one tries to determine premortal or postmortal status based on temporal blessings.  Such a judgement is very much a prideful unrighteous thing to do

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Why do we think that the farmer who's crops received rain is any more blessed that the farmer who didn't?  

Was God not with both men whom petitioned Him?  

Did He not comfort and strengthen both of them (albeit in different ways)?  

God is not a vending machine wherein you put a few coins and automatically get a treat.  Rather, He is the master of the universe, shaping and blessing in ways we don't always understand right here right now.  Including when the ride is uncomfortable-- when our hearts break and mourn and scream.  He is still the Lord and still working ALL things to His good.  

  

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19 hours ago, TheRedHen said:

I was sitting in a room not long ago with some older relatives who were all raised out in the Uinta Basin.  As a result they all get checks from oil companies on a monthly basis - sometimes small and sometimes pretty big.  Over the years they've accumulated some pretty impressive bank accounts - particularly when considering that they all had pretty menial jobs in my opinion.  As I listened I was amused as the conversation turned spiritual - as in how blessed they are to receive this money from the Lord.  One even said that she feels like the oil prices go up according to how faithful the recipients are in paying tithing.  I have my views on this and my question is therefore rhetorical, but does anyone really believe that God sends oil money to the faithful, or is it the luck of the birthplace draw?  It's almost like they're equating the non-oil people to the fence-sitting spirits in the pre-existence who were destined to be born in Africa.  Thoughts?

The example you have provided, according to my frame of reference and knowledge, these individuals are fortunate/lucky to receive a check according to their birthplace (as this doesn't appear they are working for these checks).

These checks have nothing to do with their faithfulness, and have nothing to do with paying tithing. I assume, could be wrong, that there are other people who are not members who are receiving the same type of check.

To thank the Lord for whatever we receive is a good thing, and if I received a check (because of my birthplace) I would thank the Lord for allowing me to be born in a place that I am able to receive money for doing nothing.

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23 hours ago, TheRedHen said:

I was sitting in a room not long ago with some older relatives who were all raised out in the Uinta Basin.  As a result they all get checks from oil companies on a monthly basis - sometimes small and sometimes pretty big.  Over the years they've accumulated some pretty impressive bank accounts - particularly when considering that they all had pretty menial jobs in my opinion.  As I listened I was amused as the conversation turned spiritual - as in how blessed they are to receive this money from the Lord.  One even said that she feels like the oil prices go up according to how faithful the recipients are in paying tithing.  I have my views on this and my question is therefore rhetorical, but does anyone really believe that God sends oil money to the faithful, or is it the luck of the birthplace draw?  It's almost like they're equating the non-oil people to the fence-sitting spirits in the pre-existence who were destined to be born in Africa.  Thoughts?

I’m assuming they’re enrolled members of the Ute Tribe?  I worked out there for a couple years and as I recall, tribe members get stipends for the proceeds of oil leases on reservation lands.  I don’t think non-Indians are entitled to that money . . . though a lot of them work in the oil fields, and those jobs do seem to pay insanely well . . .

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I've asked the same question, but with different circumstances. If a plane goes down killing everyone are those people just unlucky? Or are they cursed in some way? And on the flip side, let's say I was supposed to fly on United 93 on 9/11, but on 9/10 I went out and got trashed with friends. So I had a skull rattling hangover and didn't wake on time, thus missing the plane, saving my life. Am I blessed? Or lucky? 

I've told this story on here before, but one time my dad said "Wow Tim, you must have been praying hard because the hurricane didn't you." I said, "Dad, there are people who prayed just as hard as I did and lost everything." 

Edited by MormonGator
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16 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m assuming they’re enrolled members of the Ute Tribe?  I worked out there for a couple years and as I recall, tribe members get stipends for the proceeds of oil leases on reservation lands.  I don’t think non-Indians are entitled to that money . . . though a lot of them work in the oil fields, and those jobs do seem to pay insanely well . . .

Anyone who owns land out there can lease their mineral rights to an oil company.  I assume the tribes have the same deal.

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On 10/4/2019 at 9:57 PM, Vort said:

I don't think a comprehensive answer to your question is as cut-and-dried as one might think. Consider: Why are we born where we are, and to the families we get? Is it just luck of the draw? Does God make assignments? Do we make individual agreements, covenants, and the like in premortality? is there some larger familial structure that precedes this life and accounts for where/when/to whom we're born?

I suspect with a celestial view, we will see that there is little or no "luck" or "random chance" involved in anything we experience in life, even if that's what it looks like from our mortal perspective. If this is the case, then it can be argued that God is in some sense responsible for their birth advantages. I suppose it's better that the render the credit and glory to God rather than put it on themselves: "I'm rich by birth because I am a more righteous and holy person than others." I think when you give God the credit for your advantages rather than imagine it's your own brilliance that gave them to you, that's probably always a good thing.

Btw, yours is not a rhetorical question. A "rhetorical question" is a question asked as a rhetorical device—it's not really a question at all, but a statement phrased as a question. "Is there any politician more dishonest than <insert politician's name>?" "How could anyone have tried harder than you tried, you poor dear?" "Are you really stupid enough to believe a fool like her?" That sort of thing.

So the Marriott kids were valiant in the pre-existence?

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35 minutes ago, TheRedHen said:

So the Marriott kids were valiant in the pre-existence?

I don't think that is what Vort is saying. We as saints often want to peg money as righteous or wicked. But that isn’t the case. Money is neither wicked nor righteous, it merely enhances the righteousness or wickedness found in a person. Perhaps some are blessed with riches because they showed God in pre existence they would do great good with it and it seemed good to God to do it. Some he curses with riches in order to show them money does not bring joy. Some he withholds wealth to teach humility, some he withholds wealth Because it would destroy them spiritually.

I’m sure you can poke holes I my description, I know I can, but the point that I am trying to drive home is that wealth is not a sure sign of righteousness. But giving thanks to God for all you have is a sign of righteousness.

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4 hours ago, Fether said:

I don't think that is what Vort is saying. We as saints often want to peg money as righteous or wicked. But that isn’t the case. Money is neither wicked nor righteous, it merely enhances the righteousness or wickedness found in a person. Perhaps some are blessed with riches because they showed God in pre existence they would do great good with it and it seemed good to God to do it. Some he curses with riches in order to show them money does not bring joy. Some he withholds wealth to teach humility, some he withholds wealth Because it would destroy them spiritually.

I’m sure you can poke holes I my description, I know I can, but the point that I am trying to drive home is that wealth is not a sure sign of righteousness. But giving thanks to God for all you have is a sign of righteousness.

I believe God is agnostic as to our bank accounts.

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25 minutes ago, TheRedHen said:

I believe God is agnostic as to our bank accounts.

Im under the impression that God is aware of our wants and needs and understands the human condition and the importance of money when it comes to our survival... but perhaps he isn’t 🤷🏻‍♂️

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28 minutes ago, TheRedHen said:

I believe God is agnostic as to our bank accounts.

Yup. Some of the biggest scumbags I've ever met are rich, and some of the nicest people I've ever met are rich. 

Also, some of the biggest scumbags I've ever met are poor. We love to hate the rich just for being rich and fail to comprehend that human evil doesn't care about your bank account either. 

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On 10/4/2019 at 7:28 PM, TheRedHen said:

I was sitting in a room not long ago with some older relatives who were all raised out in the Uinta Basin.  As a result they all get checks from oil companies on a monthly basis - sometimes small and sometimes pretty big.  Over the years they've accumulated some pretty impressive bank accounts - particularly when considering that they all had pretty menial jobs in my opinion.  As I listened I was amused as the conversation turned spiritual - as in how blessed they are to receive this money from the Lord.  One even said that she feels like the oil prices go up according to how faithful the recipients are in paying tithing.  I have my views on this and my question is therefore rhetorical, but does anyone really believe that God sends oil money to the faithful, or is it the luck of the birthplace draw?  It's almost like they're equating the non-oil people to the fence-sitting spirits in the pre-existence who were destined to be born in Africa.  Thoughts?

Once one of my kids was talking about getting a job and earning good money.  I stopped them to explain that there is good money (that is a blessing) and bad money (that is a curse).  Good money is what you earn by your own effort - bad money is what you get as a result of someone else's effort.  I explained that any money you ask for from your parents; is without question, bad money.  I also explained that they should be thankful they had parents that protected them, as best they could, from bad money.

 

The Traveler

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9 hours ago, Traveler said:

Once one of my kids was talking about getting a job and earning good money.  I stopped them to explain that there is good money (that is a blessing) and bad money (that is a curse).  Good money is what you earn by your own effort - bad money is what you get as a result of someone else's effort.  I explained that any money you ask for from your parents; is without question, bad money.  I also explained that they should be thankful they had parents that protected them, as best they could, from bad money.

 

The Traveler

Well... there goes Fast Offerings and Tithes.  They must be bad money because they all go to someone who didn't put in the effort to earn that money.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Well... there goes Fast Offerings and Tithes.  They must be bad money because they all go to someone who didn't put in the effort to earn that money.

Not 100% true - In such cases if one understands that fast offerings and tithes are not their money to do with as they want or they understand it should be repaid.  But I also thought that you understood that very seldom (almost never) is fast offerings and tithes distributed as money - but rather at needed temporary goods and services.

 

The Traveler

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56 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Not 100% true - In such cases if one understands that fast offerings and tithes are not their money to do with as they want or they understand it should be repaid.  But I also thought that you understood that very seldom (almost never) is fast offerings and tithes distributed as money - but rather at needed temporary goods and services.

 

The Traveler

Well, there goes not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing...

So... money used to buy needed temporary goods and services is bad money.  Temporary goods and services is just fine because it is "not money"... makes absolutely zero sense, but okay.

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19 hours ago, TheRedHen said:

I'm not saying that.  I was replying to someone who said that.

Okay. But you think God is "agnostic" (fun word choice) wrt wealth. I don't think this position is tenable. Surely God does indeed bless some with wealth of various kinds; the scriptures make this clear. And surely God will require an accounting of a rich man's use of his money.

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well, there goes not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing...

So... money used to buy needed temporary goods and services is bad money.  Temporary goods and services is just fine because it is "not money"... makes absolutely zero sense, but okay.

Sorry but you are misquoting me:  What I said was:

Quote

Good money is what you earn by your own effort - bad money is what you get as a result of someone else's effort.

I am sorry that you and I have tangled over money.  But I do believe money is very different than goods and services even though most goods and services can be purchased with money.  Without going into all the reasons I do not like money - I will just say no one ever needs money.  And the idea that all needs can be purchased with money - is a flat out evil lie.  I believe that the prophet David O McKay said something like, "All the money in the world will not buy a good wife (spouse or friend) only a bad one."

My life experience has convinced me that giving money is the least of all possible charitable gifts that one can give.   And if money is ever given as charity it is because it represents greater to the giver than whatever else may be possible.  One example of a greater gift of charity than money is LOVE.  But to me - money is the cheapest and of least worth of all possible substitutes of love.  Which is why I oppose those that desire money more.

 

The Traveler

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1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Sorry but you are misquoting me:  What I said was:

I am sorry that you and I have tangled over money.  But I do believe money is very different than goods and services even though most goods and services can be purchased with money.  Without going into all the reasons I do not like money - I will just say no one ever needs money.  And the idea that all needs can be purchased with money - is a flat out evil lie.  I believe that the prophet David O McKay said something like, "All the money in the world will not buy a good wife (spouse or friend) only a bad one."

My life experience has convinced me that giving money is the least of all possible charitable gifts that one can give.   And if money is ever given as charity it is because it represents greater to the giver than whatever else may be possible.  One example of a greater gift of charity than money is LOVE.  But to me - money is the cheapest and of least worth of all possible substitutes of love.  Which is why I oppose those that desire money more.

 

The Traveler

Traveler - money is just a tool.  There is no difference between somebody giving someone money to buy needed goods and somebody giving somebody the goods directly.  It doesn't all of a sudden become bad money simply because it changed hands before it ended up paying for the goods.

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12 minutes ago, Traveler said:

My life experience has convinced me that giving money is the least of all possible charitable gifts that one can give.   

My family sponsored a garden at a NH hospital so that people in that hospital could unwind for a little bit while getting treatment. We just wrote a check, we didn't actually make the garden. So that wasn't charitable of us? 

https://www.stjosephhospital.com/services/cancer-center/cancer-center-healing-garden. The garden is named in honor of my grandfather. 

Edited by MormonGator
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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Traveler - money is just a tool.  There is no difference between somebody giving someone money to buy needed goods and somebody giving somebody the goods directly.  It doesn't all of a sudden become bad money simply because it changed hands before it ended up paying for the goods.

This is exactly where you and I differ.  Money becomes bad when someone does not justly earn it.  Just the same way the charity become stealing when it is taken rather than given.  Money is nothing until someone is willing to accept it for what is of real value, worth or need.

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