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priesthoodpower

Women and Spiritual tools outside of the Priesthood.

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When my ex-wife was a youth she noticed the ability or gift to hear and sense the presence of spirits. We LDS call it being closer to the veil. It's not a pleasant gift because most of those spirits are bothersome, she would have anxiety and not be able to sleep at night, her whole life she averaged maybe 3-6 hours of sleep nightly.

I first learned of this gift in the 1st year of our marriage (we are both returned missionaries and sealed in the temple), She would ask for a priesthood blessing every once in a while and I would administer it. Eventually we decided to see the bishop (this was back in 2002), he was in his mid-50s so we felt he had some wisdom along with his authority of being a bishop. He was impressed to ask us if we saw the movie A Beautiful Mind starring Russell Crowe, we did see it and my wife dismissed the idea that she is schizophrenic, the bishop left us with the advice to continue praying for help.

Year 3 in our marriage we went to see a psychiatrist. After only ten minutes of hearing her story he quickly subscribed meds as his strategy, we ran out of his office as fast as we could and never looked back. 

Year 8 in our marriage we had moved into a different ward and sought the advice from this bishop. He was also in his 50s and we heard that he knew a little more about spirits so we were excited to meet with him. Turns out that his wife has this same gift, he asked to visit us at our home and he taught me how to cast out spirits using the priesthood. The success rate was less than 50% and if it did work the spirits would return in just a few hours or a new one would come. Bishop said that you just have to keep casting them out non-stop. After a few weeks, it was more trouble then it was worth and my wife stopped asking me to cast out spirits.

Year 12 of our marriage she had a falling out with some of the church members, she started to really evaluate her life and wanted to move away from organized religion, the final straw was when she learned more about the church history which caused her to lose her faith and she left the church. This was a big blow to me because church was more than a religion it was my culture and how I identify myself in this world. Our relationship got really rocky, long story short, we divorced (amicably) in year 15 of our marriage.

Before the divorce, I noticed that she was reading a lot about the law of attraction as taught by abraham hicks. I looked up what abraham hicks was and it turns out to be a woman that channels a group of spiritual entities that speak through her and teach the LOA. It sounded foreign and freaky to me so I was quick to judge it as works of the devil, I never confronted her about it because we were going through some stuff and I wanted to keep the peace in the home. The Law of Attraction taught her that if there is resistance in your life that you need to release it. That was the bit of information that gave her the courage to drive to the courthouse and initiate the paperwork for our divorce. My thoughts at the time was that I was right, this LOA thing is of the devil, its teachings succeeded in breaking up our eternal marriage, which is what satan wants.

Its been almost 2 yrs now since our divorce and we are co-parenting. We have become closer as friends and I have matured in the "relationship" department in ways that I would not have if I was still married to her. Im not discounting the possibility of us getting back together in the near or distant future. 

The point of this post is that recently I asked her about her anxiety caused by the spirits. She said that through the LOA she learned how to raise her vibration and by doing so she found out that the spirits dont bother her anymore. I asked if it was completely gone and she said "yes" and her sleeping improved too. Raising vibration is done through a simple form of meditation that encapsulates love and joy, it does not involve the worshiping of anything or anyone, in fact Abraham hicks is not a religion or dogma. My ex still believes in God and feels that she has come closer to him, she believes that she could never go back to religion because her spirit is the type to suffer in a fear-based environment which was her entire life as a mormon, she doesn't say religion is bad but just that its not for her, in fact she has randomly bumped into LDS members out in the community and says some of them are in high vibration too.  

1. Physical: Our church does not teach us how to lose weight or get in shape, other than treating our bodies as a temple and following the WOW, we need to seek professional help in regards to our physical fitness or just figure it out on our own.

2. Financial: Our church does not teach us what career path to choose or how to make money, other than encouraging education we need to seek external advice or just figure it out on our own.

3. Emotional: Our church is not a place for therapy, professional or medical services are suggested for those who need emotional help.

4. Spiritual: I was taught that through the priesthood is our direct access to Gods power and is the only source to seek spiritual advice and solutions. This is where I am stumped having recently learned what my ex did to eliminate the negative spirit energy. No amount of praying, fasting, temple attendance or priesthood blessings helped her resolve her spiritual problem, just as much as those same things (ALONE) will not help some one to lose weight or get a job. Which makes me think of James 2:17 - Faith without works is dead.

Fasting and prayer to lose weight is not going to work unless you implement the "Works" diet and exercise. In the spiritual realm, is it possible that we can have Faith, be in good standing as LDS members but still discover "Works" from other spiritual sources? ..even a source like Abraham hicks (Law of Attraction) whose ideas can be beneficial? 

I know, I know, anything that will cause you to lose your faith is a no no. In the case of my ex she left the church first and then later on discovered the fix to her spirit problem. She would never have found this LOA thing if she remained in the church because we are very exclusive when it comes to spiritual things. I haven't done a deep dive into what exactly this Abraham hicks thing is but as time has passed and the little that I do observe here and there the less I feel threatened by it as an LDS and maybe it can be useful to LDS.

 

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Here are some of the thoughts that enter my mind and heart while reading your post:

1) Truth. Jesus Christ is our author of truth as he said, "I am the way, the truth, and life." As members of Christ's Church we accept any and all truth no matter where it originates on earth, as all truth originates from our Lord. The question then we ask ourselves, "Is this true"? If the Spirit of the Lord confirms it, then we know. If we accept something as true, as from the Spirit, that has been clearly stated -- is not of God -- then we can know for ourselves that we need to rethink what we are thinking as true.

The Church is not "exclusive" to truth. We are commanded to read from the best books in order to learn as much as possible. The Church does tell us to be watchful and cautious according to what we read, watch, communicate with, participate in, etc... Don't we as parents caution our children to do the same? Some members might be exclusive, the Church is not. Anything we learn and apply that is not of God, contrary, obviously has the ability to remove us from the straight and narrow path.

So the easy answer, I am a member of good standing although I read books from other sources that teach truth in a different way that might shed more light and truth (intelligence) to becoming more like my Father in heaven.

2) Physical and Financial -- true, our Church (the Lord's Church) isn't a place that teaches as things temporal. The Church is to teach us the path that leads back to the Father through the Son. Can we learn about temporal things through Church programs, well, yes of course.

3) Emotional. Sure, the Church isn't for therapy. If you need professional help, seek it out.

4) With your wife. I am concerned by how often she specifies these spirits came back after being cast out. The adversary and spirits of the adversary must leave when commanded. They return if we have invited them back.

I assume the temptations of the devil are bothersome. I am concerned with the thought that the Lord will allow "bothersome" spirits without our invitation. As to the description provided (with understanding I have a vignette of what she experienced) it appears to be more in the mind than spirits.

Evil spirits have bounds the Lord has set. Spirits of the just also have bounds the Lord has set. If we truly have a gift from God, then we pray to understand what that gift is and how to properly apply it.

There are experiences, physical and spiritual, that are interesting (i.e. Joseph Smith in the sacred grove). The Lord allowed a Darkness (an attack) before Light was illuminated. When and why does the Lord allow such, and why does it appear to be so infrequent?

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

 

I assume the temptations of the devil are bothersome. I am concerned with the thought that the Lord will allow "bothersome" spirits without our invitation. As to the description provided (with understanding I have a vignette of what she experienced) it appears to be more in the mind than spirits.

Evil spirits have bounds the Lord has set. Spirits of the just also have bounds the Lord has set. If we truly have a gift from God, then we pray to understand what that gift is and how to properly apply it.

 

Very helpful feedback, thanks! Ill have to do more research from our church literature on this subject. In my support for her I never once entertained the idea of schizophrenia.  

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Anddenex post got me thinking about the possibility of the problem being in her mind instead of actual spirits.

So I thought about our first bishop interview back in 2002 when he suggested the movie A Beautiful mind. I clearly remember bishop pausing and really feeling inspired to mention that movie.  

Well I decided to revisit that movie and read up on it which lead me to a youtube documentary of John Nash, whom the movie was based on. John had paranoid schizophrenia which is why his actions were those of someone who is paranoid. My ex did not display paranoid actions but the hearing of voices is considered hallucination within the spectrum of schizophrenia.

After 30 years with this condition John had a mind shift and decided to reject the voices, he said he "willed" his recovery and made a conscious decision to put those hallucinations aside.

wow!

That is exactly what my ex did via the meditation that she learned from the law of attraction, the idea of releasing "resistance" and things that you don't want in your life. It sucks that the first thing she learned to release was me, well actually religion and then me and then the voices. lol

This thread is heading in the direction of mental/medical rather than spiritual.

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So lets recap... Based on hindsight you think it is likely that your wife has(had) mental health issues.

When she looked for help her first Bishop pretty much nailed it (Or at least that is what you are saying in retrospect) but your wife refused to accept it. (Spiritual Sin of Pride)

A mental health professional recommended drugs which she rejected..  Not only the drugs which is understandable but the entire profession.  (Sounds like Pride again)

Then she got another Bishop who gave her what she wanted.... Validation of spirits and how to deal with them.  And it did not work.  This should not be a surprise if evil spirits where not the real problem.

Thus because she felt she knew better then everyone else she thinks the church failed her (Again Pride) and she felt justified in leaving it all behind.  Eventually she stumbles on a workable mental health fix with new age occult trappings.

Sounds to me that her pride made her refuse any help the church or medical profession would offer.  She had to find a fix that fit her desires rather then conforming her desires to God and Christ plan.

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15 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

2. Financial: Our church does not teach us what career path to choose or how to make money, other than encouraging education we need to seek external advice or just figure it out on our own.

So, not to detract from your engaging story, but the church does more than encourage education, it provides quite a bit.  There is an entire curriculum on self-reliance, we cover getting out of debt, starting your own business, ways to deal with unemployment or underemployment, how to network, etc.  Honestly, if you don't have the $200 for Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University, the church has you covered for free.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/self-reliance?lang=eng

 

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

This thread is heading in the direction of mental/medical rather than spiritual.

I would say mental illness because spiritual gifts are given to bring us to Christ and to help us do the work of bringing others to Christ.   They should never cause anguish and insomnia as you described.

I don't think it is a pride issue though, as it is common for people with this type of mental illness to be in denial, even when everyone around them is telling them they have an illness. Apparently the same misfiring in the brain that causes delusions also creates massive denial.  

By the way, I had a friend that had the Gift of Discernment of Spirits. She worked in a nursing home and knew when it was someone's time to pass over the veil, because there would be a visitor in the room that other staff couldn't see. When she described it to me, it sounded beautiful and not at all scary.

Edited by LiterateParakeet

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16 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

1. Physical: Our church does not teach us how to lose weight or get in shape, other than treating our bodies as a temple and following the WOW, we need to seek professional help in regards to our physical fitness or just figure it out on our own.

2. Financial: Our church does not teach us what career path to choose or how to make money, other than encouraging education we need to seek external advice or just figure it out on our own.

3. Emotional: Our church is not a place for therapy, professional or medical services are suggested for those who need emotional help.

4. Spiritual: I was taught that through the priesthood is our direct access to Gods power and is the only source to seek spiritual advice and solutions. This is where I am stumped having recently learned what my ex did to eliminate the negative spirit energy. No amount of praying, fasting, temple attendance or priesthood blessings helped her resolve her spiritual problem, just as much as those same things (ALONE) will not help some one to lose weight or get a job. Which makes me think of James 2:17 - Faith without works is dead.

In addition to seeking out truth wherever it may be (as mentioned by Anddenex) we also know that by the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of ALL things. In the self-reliance class I'm attending it makes it very clear up front that we are supposed to involve the Lord in all temporal matters. I think this is an area where we as members often live far beneath our privileges. As you point out there is still a lot of leg work to be done on our end but at the end of the day we take what we have learned, work things out in our minds and then present it to the Lord for both approval but also assistance in carrying it out. Its the whole "create things spiritually and then physically" process that we learn about in the temple.

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11 hours ago, estradling75 said:

So lets recap... Based on hindsight you think it is likely that your wife has(had) mental health issues.

When she looked for help her first Bishop pretty much nailed it (Or at least that is what you are saying in retrospect) but your wife refused to accept it. (Spiritual Sin of Pride)

A mental health professional recommended drugs which she rejected..  Not only the drugs which is understandable but the entire profession.  (Sounds like Pride again)

Im glad you offered your hindsight view so that I can offer mine.

By us not accepting Bishops opinion of possible schizophrenia he ended the interview by encouraging us to continue praying which we always did, that advice (in hindsight) was spot on. Why? because had we accepted his first advice we would have walked out of his office believing that she has a mental illness and to seek professional help from a profession that claims lifelong treatment with no cure. As written in my OP, she stumbled upon a fix years later and it did not come from a professional pill prescriber. God works in mysterious ways.

a. Beliefs are very powerful, for good or for worse, and for us as a new couple starting out our lives together 17 yrs ago with a belief and label hanging over her head that she has a mental disorder aka crazy, I do not know how that would have altered our path. Whos to say that depression or disablement would not plaque her or the symptoms get worse? In 2002 its a 100% chance that the "Profession" would have put her on meds and its damaging side effects. In hindsight I see the hidden blessings.  

b. As I studied John Nash's story he had a son out of wedlock at age 24 and abandoned the child and mother, no one knew about the child. At age 29 he married and had a second son who he raised. Of the two kids which one do you think became a mathematician like their father? Of course the second son that grew up under the same roof and influence of his mathematician father. Was it in the boys DNA to be a mathematician or the influence (environment) of the father or a balance of both? Let me ask you this question, of the two boys which one has schizophrenia? You guessed it, the second one. The environment plays a huge factor, if it were only DNA then the first (abandoned) son would have at least been a mathematician or schizophrenic but is neither. My point is that treatment for schizophrenia as prescribed in the "profession" involves acceptance and family support, in other words our 3 daughters (who worship and emulate their mom) would have grown up knowing and believing that their mother has a condition and the odds of them believing that it can happen to them greatly increase. No one but me and her know of this condition. In hindsight I see the hidden blessings. God is good!

Heck! I feel as if bishops recommendation of that movie A Beautiful Mind wasn't meant for us to analyze back then, but for right now. Everything seems so clear right now.

 

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10 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Im glad you offered your hindsight view so that I can offer mine.

By us not accepting Bishops opinion of possible schizophrenia he ended the interview by encouraging us to continue praying which we always did, that advice (in hindsight) was spot on. Why? because had we accepted his first advice we would have walked out of his office believing that she has a mental illness and to seek professional help from a profession that claims lifelong treatment with no cure. As written in my OP, she stumbled upon a fix years later and it did not come from a professional pill prescriber. God works in mysterious ways.

a. Beliefs are very powerful, for good or for worse, and for us as a new couple starting out our lives together 17 yrs ago with a belief and label hanging over her head that she has a mental disorder aka crazy, I do not know how that would have altered our path. Whos to say that depression or disablement would not plaque her or the symptoms get worse? In 2002 its a 100% chance that the "Profession" would have put her on meds and its damaging side effects. In hindsight I see the hidden blessings.  

b. As I studied John Nash's story he had a son out of wedlock at age 24 and abandoned the child and mother, no one knew about the child. At age 29 he married and had a second son who he raised. Of the two kids which one do you think became a mathematician like their father? Of course the second son that grew up under the same roof and influence of his mathematician father. Was it in the boys DNA to be a mathematician or the influence (environment) of the father or a balance of both? Let me ask you this question, of the two boys which one has schizophrenia? You guessed it, the second one. The environment plays a huge factor, if it were only DNA then the first (abandoned) son would have at least been a mathematician or schizophrenic but is neither. My point is that treatment for schizophrenia as prescribed in the "profession" involves acceptance and family support, in other words our 3 daughters (who worship and emulate their mom) would have grown up knowing and believing that their mother has a condition and the odds of them believing that it can happen to them greatly increase. No one but me and her know of this condition. In hindsight I see the hidden blessings. God is good!

Heck! I feel as if bishops recommendation of that movie A Beautiful Mind wasn't meant for us to analyze back then, but for right now. Everything seems so clear right now.

 

I have psych challenges.  It has the capacity to really hurt not only a marriage but children as well.  The reason I'm still married with healthy kids of driving age is because I was able to identify and accept that I have a mental health challenge and develop coping mechanisms to alleviate its effects.  I ran away from the psychologist who tried to get me on a treatment with drugs - not that I didn't think the drugs will help but I am like John Nash - I'd rather deal with something I know and understand than deal with the side-effects of drugs that I don't know nor understand and addles my willpower.  I was able to tell my husband about it so he had a choice to either marry me and be my partner in dealing with it or walk away from it.  And my kids were born into that knowledge.

Just because she found a solution in the occult for her symptoms doesn't mean that's where she needs to stay.  The first step is identifying the problem correctly.  The second step is figuring out good and lasting ways to cope with the existing problem.  Training your brain to solve its own problems can only happen if the brain knows what the problem is.

 

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10 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Im glad you offered your hindsight view so that I can offer mine.

 

Have no hindsight view to offer...  I was summarizing yours (as you gave it to us), because you wanted to discuss spirituality.  Your wife's pride/fear killed your marriage and her belief in the church. (That does not mean she can't repent and later return but rather what her status is now).

You are also pushing the idea that the sinful behavior was "some how" a good thing because growth happened.  This however is a myopic view.  You have no idea what kind of growth might have happened had the challenge been faced with Obedience, Faith, Patience, and Humility rather then Pride, Impatience and Fear.

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18 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Have no hindsight view to offer...  I was summarizing yours (as you gave it to us), because you wanted to discuss spirituality.  Your wife's pride/fear killed your marriage and her belief in the church. (That does not mean she can't repent and later return but rather what her status is now).

You are also pushing the idea that the sinful behavior was "some how" a good thing because growth happened.  This however is a myopic view.  You have no idea what kind of growth might have happened had the challenge been faced with Obedience, Faith, Patience, and Humility rather then Pride, Impatience and Fear.

Can you please stop, its overwhelming how negative your point of views are. 

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18 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I have psych challenges.  It has the capacity to really hurt not only a marriage but children as well.  The reason I'm still married with healthy kids of driving age is because I was able to identify and accept that I have a mental health challenge and develop coping mechanisms to alleviate its effects.  I ran away from the psychologist who tried to get me on a treatment with drugs - not that I didn't think the drugs will help but I am like John Nash - I'd rather deal with something I know and understand than deal with the side-effects of drugs that I don't know nor understand and addles my willpower.  I was able to tell my husband about it so he had a choice to either marry me and be my partner in dealing with it or walk away from it.  And my kids were born into that knowledge.

Just because she found a solution in the occult for her symptoms doesn't mean that's where she needs to stay.  The first step is identifying the problem correctly.  The second step is figuring out good and lasting ways to cope with the existing problem.  Training your brain to solve its own problems can only happen if the brain knows what the problem is.

 

Thanks for sharing that is very helpful. 

Its going to be a journey to slowly get my information together and present it to her in a loving way. I can only rely on the spirit to guide me.

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:34 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

I would say mental illness because spiritual gifts are given to bring us to Christ and to help us do the work of bringing others to Christ.   They should never cause anguish and insomnia as you described.

I don't think it is a pride issue though, as it is common for people with this type of mental illness to be in denial, even when everyone around them is telling them they have an illness. Apparently the same misfiring in the brain that causes delusions also creates massive denial.  

This is the type of info that I appreciate and will help me have a meaningful discussion with her when the time is right, along with some of the info that anddenex shared Im going to find those scriptural references or teachings to back me up. 

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In Doctrine and Covenants Section 122 the Lord talks to Joseph Smith about Trials and why they happen, why he allows them.

We can learn a lot from this. The first thing we can learn is that the Lord used words like Tribulation and Perils.  He did not use words like Party and Celebration.  Therefore we should expect it to push us, to try us, and cost us things we hold dear.  Or to use the vernacular its going to suck.  As much as we might want it to be easy that is not the plan for when the Lord has Trials for us. (We also can bring Trials upon ourselves but that is a different discussion)

The plan is as the Lord says in verse 7

Quote

that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

While we might not understand the why and the whats of our Trials the Lord does and no one should expect to be able to avoid or remove the trial. It will end when the Lord has accomplished his purpose.  And his purpose is listed in verse 7 above and in Abraham 3 :25

Quote

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Given the Lord's reasoning and purposes we should not be Surprised when President Eyring in a recent conference said how he found about half the families he would visit would be in the middle of some kind of trial or crisis. (Remember that next time you think someone else has a perfect life)

Thus we should expect such trials to happen often, they will hopefully be different, and some might last longer then others, but they will happen.  Faithfulness, Obedience, Spirituality, Prayer, Scripture Study and all other standard church answers... do not get us a pass on the Trials that God has ordained for us (but they can help us through them).

When we are in the middle of such a trial is normal and natural to desire as Christ did for this 'cup to pass from us.'  Less commonly for us to we follow up that statement like Christ did 'Never the less not my will be done but thine'  More often we want to point the finger of blame at someone.  Family, Friend, The Church, etc.  However it is totally unreasonable to expect anyone to be able to thwart the will of God when he has a purpose for us.  The only one with any reasonable control over the duration is us and that is dependent on how quickly we accomplish the purposes of God and become proven.  The best we can hope for from any Family Members, Friends, The Church, etc is the general ideas found in the expectations for baptism (Aka be willing to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those in need of comfort etc).  And none of that can remove the trial.

And even that can fail.  After all how many of us when we feel our trials to be overwhelming and more then we can bear... when in that deepest and darkest moment feel that we can and are willing to reach out and help someone else?  Not many generally.  And if are unwilling to do so we have no grounds to really complain when others do not do so either.  Given President Eyring's guesstimate of half that is a lot of people already struggling.  For those that can or those that are currently between trials they still have there own choices to make,  and if they choose to try to help, sometimes what they end up doing is the wrong thing, or its not what we want for us... or many other possibilities.

None of these issue are fixable at the group or institutional level.  No matter how much someone seeking to blame others might try to point their finger at them.  It has to be fixed at the individual level of becoming Christ-like.  The best a group or institution can do is encourage such 'becoming' while allowing all to move at whatever pace they can.

 

 

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11 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Can you please stop, its overwhelming how negative your point of views are. 

Forgive me from intruding on such a private conversation.  But what exactly was negative about his post?  All I could see was that he (essentially) repeated your own words back to you.  But you seemed to be putting things in a really strange order.  He simply placed them in correct order.  So, what's the beef?

Edited by Mores

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On 10/10/2019 at 4:40 PM, priesthoodpower said:

Thanks for sharing that is very helpful. 

Its going to be a journey to slowly get my information together and present it to her in a loving way. I can only rely on the spirit to guide me.

This is the type of info that I appreciate and will help me have a meaningful discussion with her when the time is right, along with some of the info that anddenex shared Im going to find those scriptural references or teachings to back me up. 

Hi Sir,  I try to help others when I am asking help.  So I was reading your topic and really interested in it.  If what I suggest is totally wrong,  just through it away and not a second thought.

To me,  it sounds like you want your wife to come home .  And if you can help understand and solve any or all of her issues it can help to make that happen.  If that is true... I get it.  It is normal.   I would suggest that if that is what you are looking for,  to redirect the efforts to self improvement,  all or most of the things LDS teaches but also and with urgency a strong physical fitness plan,  specifically heavy lifting if you are not already doing it.  It will help your mind as much as body.  And make you stronger to help her.  Also double down on your career/work and drive it as hard/far as you can.  I know LDS church and culture already teaches how to dress and groom so you should already have that well covered.  What would be nice is if she asks you for more and more advice because she can notice your strong.

Like I said,  if I have it wrong,  don't take offense.

Good Luck.

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