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SomeGuy

How to restore desire ?

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Hi All,

I joined this forum to ask this question. I understand this is somewhat a group of Christians of the LDS variety.

I will briefly describe what I believe is a common problem that occurs (unfortunately for me also..) and then asking how to solve. Probably to pray is one of them... but looking for ideas that might not be common and from the perspective of this group. Some of the stuff I have tried does not work yet.

Problem is after 15 years of marriage wife is bored, or doesn't respect, or doesn't admire or or, and so on. Have kids, etc... no terrible vices.. well coffee.. Probably root/root cause is/was lazy husband (me) on a few different levels. Some of them not ok to discuss in a family forum probably. Not doing anything wrong, just not enough right things..

So I move us to a new venue (location) to try to improve and insert some excitement. And o boy, it worked but not like I had hoped. In the new venue girl (wife) is attracted and flirting to several other younger guys as the lifestyle is more active. Got bad enough to get to the I love you but not in love with you conversation... Walking on egg shells and so on.. no happy home..

My self analysis of issues is that I am not being a good enough man to keep her interest... and therefore she can not be a good wife. So I find something called red pill marriage, you can find it in reddit. Lots of practical advice and tones of writings that EXACTLY fit my case. Really scary stuff. And scary how close it fits. I have read and understand all that stuff...and decided to try the solution suggested. That involves all self improvements, heavy lifting, meditation and emotional control, dressing/grooming improvements and a few other stuff. One of the last things on the list of actions to do was/is to start flirting other girls to prove to wife that I have value to others... I get the point of this as it will lead my interest away from her and she will either follow after me or we will separate. I so far have refused to take that step as I much prefer some other way. I have compliance now in the home, but I prefer to have desire. Compliance is empty.

I don't know for sure if she is faithful, I strongly suspect not and have much circumstantial evidence but no proof so I can be wrong.

I want her to come home in spirit/heart/interest. How do you achieve that to happen from your viewpoint ?

I still lead the family in prayer at night..

Thanks for the ideas you have. I know how to filter or consider ideas even if they sound crazy or over the top. Bring them, I will like to hear.

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Preliminary reactions:

1). Beware of the red pill marriage thing.  A lot of it doesn’t seem to be rooted in the sort of Christlike husbandry Paul teaches in Ephesians.

2). Specifically, the flirting bit.  There’s no aphrodisiac quite like loyalty.

3). You need to get to the bottom of your suspicions on adultery; whether that means a frank conversation, a PI, or something else.

4). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2000/10/agency-and-love-in-marriage?lang=eng

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13 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Got bad enough to get to the I love you but not in love with you conversation...

When you asked her why she is no longer in love with you, what was her answer?
What is her reason for lack of respect, admiration and general boredom with you?

I would offer up two thoughts.
1. You either have faults (we all do) that you need to honestly work on. Help her fall in love with you 'again'.
OR
2. Perhaps your suspicions are correct, she is unfaithful AND therefore she is creating/finding unnecessary faults with you in an effort to mask her own misdeeds.

7 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1). Beware of the red pill marriage thing.  A lot of it doesn’t seem to be rooted in the sort of Christlike husbandry Paul teaches in Ephesians.

Agreed. Not a path with lasting happiness as its destination.

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@SomeGuy The biggest advice I can offer is communication. It seems like there is this huge wall between you where you are both thinking to yourself "Do we divorce? Do we keep this going? It ain't working obviously. I bet he/she is thinking the same thing. What do I say? I don't know. Ill just let this build and deal with it later"
 

If I was ripped out of this reality and immediately placed in a reality like yours, but with my wife, I would immediately sit her down, break down ALL those walls, and hit the issue point-blank. Don't trim the issue, uproot the entire tree and see what happens. You are clearly in a state of relationship limbo and slowly drifting away further and further.

I would literally sit her down and say "Wife... I know I have been an awful husband. I know I am not meeting any of your needs. I know that you are looking to others for the love you crave. And I know I am no longer attractive to you. But I love you and I want to change. I want to be the man you are excited to come home to see, and love to be around. I am also afraid that you are cheating on me. I don't know for sure, but it hurts me to think that that is a possibility and I would like to know the truth (and believe whatever she says even if I don't think it is true, the truth will eventually come out). I want to get this figured out right now. Whether that means we make some drastic changes and become who we ought to be. Or we divorce. I can't keep living with this un-surety any more. So where are you at with this? Please be honest, cause I want this fixed." ... and then wait for her to respond.

If she wants to figure things out, IMMEDIATELY sign up for couples counseling. It is incredible and will help you and your wife see your own faults and learn what each other is thinking. My wife and I had a fairly healthy relationship from the start of our marriage, but we had some minor things that my wife needed figuring out so she signed us up for counseling. At first, I thought it was a little silly, but after the first session, I was sold on seeing a counselor. They are incredible

I would also HIGHLY recommend reading / listening to on Audible the book "His Needs Her Needs" TOGETHER (https://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her-Building-Affair-Proof/dp/0800719387)

 

And of course... read your scriptures, your patriarchal blessings, keep scripture notes... say your prayers and make them heartfelt. Keep a journal and write down your impressions, I promise God will speak. These aren't just arbitrary things we are asked to do as saints. They are real and they really help. There are also some incredible self-help books out there about forming habits and becoming the best person you can be. Find times in your life (like commuting to work or exercising) where you can play these and learn how to be an excellent person. That is what you, your wife, and God need right now.

Edited by Fether

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

@SomeGuy The biggest advice I can offer is communication. It seems like there is this huge wall between you where you are both thinking to yourself "Do we divorce? Do we keep this going? It ain't working obviously. I bet he/she is thinking the same thing. What do I say? I don't know. Ill just let this build and deal with it later"
 

If I was ripped out of this reality and immediately placed in a reality like yours, but with my wife, I would immediately sit her down, break down ALL those walls, and hit the issue point-blank. Don't trim the issue, uproot the entire tree and see what happens. You are clearly in a state of relationship limbo and slowly drifting away further and further.

I would literally sit her down and say "Wife... I know I have been an awful husband. I know I am not meeting any of your needs. I know that you are looking to others for the love you crave. And I know I am no longer attractive to you. But I love you and I want to change. I want to be the man you are excited to come home to see, and love to be around. I am also afraid that you are cheating on me. I don't know for sure, but it hurts me to think that that is a possibility and I would like to know the truth (and believe whatever she says even if I don't think it is true, the truth will eventually come out). I want to get this figured out right now. Whether that means we make some drastic changes and become who we ought to be. Or we divorce. I can't keep living with this un-surety any more. So where are you at with this? Please be honest, cause I want this fixed." ... and then wait for her to respond.

If she wants to figure things out, IMMEDIATELY sign up for couples counseling. It is incredible and will help you and your wife see your own faults and learn what each other is thinking. My wife and I had a fairly healthy relationship from the start of our marriage, but we had some minor things that my wife needed figuring out so she signed us up for counseling. At first, I thought it was a little silly, but after the first session, I was sold on seeing a counselor. They are incredible

I would also HIGHLY recommend reading / listening to on Audible the book "His Needs Her Needs" TOGETHER (https://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her-Building-Affair-Proof/dp/0800719387)

 

And of course... read your scriptures, your patriarchal blessings, keep scripture notes... say your prayers and make them heartfelt. Keep a journal and write down your impressions, I promise God will speak. These aren't just arbitrary things we are asked to do as saints. They are real and they really help. There are also some incredible self-help books out there about forming habits and becoming the best person you can be. Find times in your life (like commuting to work or exercising) where you can play these and learn how to be an excellent person. That is what you, your wife, and God need right now.

@Fether offers some sound advice, but I would be cautious of telling her that you are afraid she is cheating on you.  If she is cheating, it’s not something she is likely to admit. And if she’s not cheating, you have just made things worse by telling your wife you don’t trust her.

If you seriously suspect she is cheating, I would find proof before confronting her about it. And if it does turn out that she is cheating, and you still want to save your marriage, I would fervently pray for guidance on how to approach your wife about it.

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31 minutes ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

@Fether offers some sound advice, but I would be cautious of telling her that you are afraid she is cheating on you.  If she is cheating, it’s not something she is likely to admit. And if she’s not cheating, you have just made things worse by telling your wife you don’t trust her.

If you seriously suspect she is cheating, I would find proof before confronting her about it. And if it does turn out that she is cheating, and you still want to save your marriage, I would fervently pray for guidance on how to approach your wife about it.

I would definitely confront it. I’m not a professional counselor or anything though, but having gone so long with such lack of communication, getting everything you feel out would seem awful. And waiting to find proof or evidence seems like a good way to get an “I got you!!” Moment... which is probably not what is wanted or what would be healthy.

May not be the best decision depending on you and what all is going on. But I wouldn’t definitely approach her and put it more on my back as fears I have instead of accusing her.

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17 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Hi All,

I joined this forum to ask this question. I understand this is somewhat a group of Christians of the LDS variety.

I will briefly describe what I believe is a common problem that occurs (unfortunately for me also..) and then asking how to solve. Probably to pray is one of them... but looking for ideas that might not be common and from the perspective of this group. Some of the stuff I have tried does not work yet.

Problem is after 15 years of marriage wife is bored, or doesn't respect, or doesn't admire or or, and so on. Have kids, etc... no terrible vices.. well coffee.. Probably root/root cause is/was lazy husband (me) on a few different levels. Some of them not ok to discuss in a family forum probably. Not doing anything wrong, just not enough right things..

So I move us to a new venue (location) to try to improve and insert some excitement. And o boy, it worked but not like I had hoped. In the new venue girl (wife) is attracted and flirting to several other younger guys as the lifestyle is more active. Got bad enough to get to the I love you but not in love with you conversation... Walking on egg shells and so on.. no happy home..

My self analysis of issues is that I am not being a good enough man to keep her interest... and therefore she can not be a good wife. So I find something called red pill marriage, you can find it in reddit. Lots of practical advice and tones of writings that EXACTLY fit my case. Really scary stuff. And scary how close it fits. I have read and understand all that stuff...and decided to try the solution suggested. That involves all self improvements, heavy lifting, meditation and emotional control, dressing/grooming improvements and a few other stuff. One of the last things on the list of actions to do was/is to start flirting other girls to prove to wife that I have value to others... I get the point of this as it will lead my interest away from her and she will either follow after me or we will separate. I so far have refused to take that step as I much prefer some other way. I have compliance now in the home, but I prefer to have desire. Compliance is empty.

I don't know for sure if she is faithful, I strongly suspect not and have much circumstantial evidence but no proof so I can be wrong.

I want her to come home in spirit/heart/interest. How do you achieve that to happen from your viewpoint ?

I still lead the family in prayer at night..

Thanks for the ideas you have. I know how to filter or consider ideas even if they sound crazy or over the top. Bring them, I will like to hear.

15 years of marriage. There is a lot to unpack here. 

The primary reason this is occurring is because you and her did not do the proper work during the previous 15 years.  Just because you have a piece of paper and the ability to copulate without Church discipline does not mean you are married.  Being married is a state of being, not something granted-it is something that is earned by lots of hard, hard work.  This is a common thing in today's society because most people (even inside the Church) don't have a clue what it means to be married.  I don't blame you or her-it's just our culture teaches it wrong.  When you first got married, you probably had kids relatively soon and instead of making your roles primarily as husband and wife your primary roles shifted to mother/father.  When you do that-you stop being married.

The reason why what is occurring now is that as kids get older and each partner starts seeing the light at the end tunnel of being mother/father-they start reseeing their role as husband/wife. Then they start seeing this person who they have seen in the role as "parent" for the last 15 years and they don't recognize them at all as spouse.  I do believe it is reversible-but it takes work on by both.  If you don't nip this in the bud now and take some major corrective action, she will almost certainly divorce you as soon as the kids are gone.

Next,  she is as much to blame here as you are.  Do not let her get off scot-free in this.  More likely than not she put more emphasis and attention to either being a mother/career than she did being a wife. Don't go down the route of saying you are the only one at fault-it takes two to tango, it takes two to make a marriage. You need to stop with the self-deprecating talk (i.e. lazy, "not doing enough right things") those sound like things you've been told to say by your wife as she has complained to you about your faults.  Now, it's certainly possible you are lazy, but unless you are one welfare ... most likely you've been a hard-working provider for your family. Don't buy into the lies that you're lazy or that you're not good enough to keep her interest. 

You certainly have your faults, but your wife absolutely has just as much to blame for your marriage not being good-and don't forget that!

Now the red-pill stuff.  There is some very powerful messages in the red-pill and a whole heck of a lot of truth, unfortunately it is also mixed with some very bad lies too.  I would not ever advocate for flirting with other women not your wife-that is playing with fire. It's against God's law, it plays with your wife and it plays with the other women.  Not good.

Now to your wife.  She must be a very attractive lady, or the younger guys she is flirting with are total losers.  Woman's looks generally start dropping around 30+ and it's the very rare woman who at say 40 is able to flirt with and get serious attention from men in their 20s . . .unless she either has money or is really good looking or the men are total losers who couldn't get a date with a paper-bag.  Now I'm going to go with attractive lady, b/c well if she is looking for love with younger loser men-I'd cut bait and tell her good luck!!! (b/c obviously she isn't too bright).

So b/c she is attractive, you won her over somehow.  Women inherently (and good looking women especially!) know their ability to make a man weak in the knees.  Yet with her beauty, she chose you! Somehow, someway this good looking woman who most men would dream about getting chose you!   That's a really good sign for you. Now the question is why did she chose you?  And the follow-up question are those things that you did to win her over still valuable to her?  People change and so what she once valued 15 years ago in you, she may no longer value, but odds are she does and just needs to be reminded of it.

Finally, for good looking women, they know they can get men to do what they want and that any man will try to please them-yet there are many total loser men out there.  My guess is that in you she saw someone who was stable, dependable, reliable. My guess is you provided her a great environment to raise kids in.  However, you two didn't build a marriage together over 15 years, you simply raised kids. 

So what else probably won her over? Most likely it had to do with confidence, my guess is when you were first dating you were much more confident than you are now. You probably held your head a little higher.  Stop being afraid you are going to lose her-that will kill your confidence, start being confident that you can win her again! Women hate insecure, self-loathing men they instinctively will run away from and reject them.  So how to you be confident?

Start putting your foot down. Stop walking on egg shells.  The reason why red pill marriage tells men to flirt, is two-fold 1) it puts the wife in her place and 2) it gives you self-confidence.  I disagree with the method, but agree on the goals. 

If you catch your wife flirting with other men-don't take it.  Tell her directly "That is unacceptable behavior, I will not tolerate that in my marriage" and then walk away. Start standing up for yourself and be a leader!  Other people (including your wife) are drawn to attracted to people who are good leaders.  Start setting boundaries, enforce them and yes confront head on any potential infidelity.

That and you can give Stefan Molyneaux a call-he does call-in shows about this sort of thing, will talk to you for 2+ hours and does a good job.

 

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

I would definitely confront it. I’m not a professional counselor or anything though, but having gone so long with such lack of communication, getting everything you feel out would seem awful. And waiting to find proof or evidence seems like a good way to get an “I got you!!” Moment... which is probably not what is wanted or what would be healthy.

May not be the best decision depending on you and what all is going on. But I wouldn’t definitely approach her and put it more on my back as fears I have instead of accusing her.

Didn’t you basically just tell him to get everything out?  Rip the entire tree out from its root, and all that?

It’s not an “I got you!!” moment.  We’re not talking about him catching his wife forgetting to put the cap back on the toothpaste or putting her on the show “Cheaters.” This is serious.  If his marriage is already suffering from lack of communication and other issues, do you honestly believe accusing his wife of adultery is going to help things?  His intentions may be innocent enough, and even understandable, but, the reality is that most women are not going to see it that way, especially if they are already unhappy with their marriage.  He can try to tell her these are just fears he has, but she will nevertheless just feel accused.

Quite frankly, if she is cheating, she has more to answer than he does.  But, like I said before, if he finds out for certain that she really is unfaithful, it is something that he needs to approach with through prayer.

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5 hours ago, Fether said:

I would literally sit her down and say "Wife... I know I have been an awful husband. I know I am not meeting any of your needs. I know that you are looking to others for the love you crave. And I know I am no longer attractive to you. But I love you and I want to change..."

I would be very careful about doing this. Which is to say, bluntly, I would not do this. If I felt the need to say such things to my wife, I would be very strictly honest about my shortcomings. I would not exaggerate them in any way to try to "prove" my sincerity—nor would I seek to minimize my wrongs. I certainly would not say "I have been an awful husband" or "I'm not meeting any of your needs". Such grandiose, hyper-self-critical statements don't work anywhere but Hollywood.

I have no real input for the OP. Just be honest and try much harder.

Just my 2¢, probably worth no more than that.

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I will likely have some follow up questions for a couple of you.    However I would give a thank you for each that invested time to read, understand, consider, and invest in trying to help.  I try to do that same on some other forum with great success.   But my own problems are much harder to deal with for myself.

I would/will do whatever I can with the abilities I have or can learn about this topic. 

All commented for me to be more assertive is key..    I agree and that is the primary reason that I had adopted red pill marriage.  Honestly without that it would be over already I think.  The impact has been significant,  I just don't like the final steps as they don't fit me,  they might work as her anxiety is high now.  I need to lower that anxiety but also my own.  That is why asking a different group like this one.

I have a difficult time with discussion to her,  she is so far able to control the feelings/frame.  Meaning that anything she doesn't like gets greeted by divorce threat or wild wild emotion swings...  Also part of the reason I go to red pill marriage to learn how to deal with that and introduce some power balance change so as to allow communication.   That is part of the core principal in being willing to walk away.....  I would be so very happy to just sit with her and talk it all out and make it ok.  Her control is to not allow that... She will not marriage counseling and where we live in the world it is not really available.

She is about 40 and I 15 years older...   And yes as a 40 year old she can compete with younger girls but that will change quickly in the next years.  The guys are about 35ish and the contact method is kids activities.  They are also married with families...   except one.  I don't think she is looking for any replacement of me unless one just happens to show up.  I am a very strong provider by several times over these others...   Its all about keeping control of me and still doing whatever...  and getting me to accept it by words or threats.   Now you might say,  get away and just end it.  but maybe the view from her would sound different.. and I can be wrong... and then the kids... 

I can of course just walk away..    I must do all I can first,  and that involves asking others when I don't know what to do.  It is not just something I can talk to others about that know her/us.

I had already told my suspicions before starting red pill(basically the candid talk)...  and that did not help...  I had expected something like really... no way...   Instead I got fiery Anger,  the type that would suggest it was true.

If something else occurs to you based from this update pls share.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Didn’t you basically just tell him to get everything out?  Rip the entire tree out from its root, and all that?

It’s not an “I got you!!” moment.  We’re not talking about him catching his wife forgetting to put the cap back on the toothpaste or putting her on the show “Cheaters.” This is serious.  If his marriage is already suffering from lack of communication and other issues, do you honestly believe accusing his wife of adultery is going to help things?  His intentions may be innocent enough, and even understandable, but, the reality is that most women are not going to see it that way, especially if they are already unhappy with their marriage.  He can try to tell her these are just fears he has, but she will nevertheless just feel accused.

Quite frankly, if she is cheating, she has more to answer than he does.  But, like I said before, if he finds out for certain that she really is unfaithful, it is something that he needs to approach with through prayer.

 

10 hours ago, Vort said:

I would be very careful about doing this. Which is to say, bluntly, I would not do this. If I felt the need to say such things to my wife, I would be very strictly honest about my shortcomings. I would not exaggerate them in any way to try to "prove" my sincerity—nor would I seek to minimize my wrongs. I certainly would not say "I have been an awful husband" or "I'm not meeting any of your needs". Such grandiose, hyper-self-critical statements don't work anywhere but Hollywood.

I have no real input for the OP. Just be honest and try much harder.

Just my 2¢, probably worth no more than that.

I am no therapist,  psychiatrist , and have had zero experience in this situation. But I still stand behind what I said. With the relationship my wife and I have, upfront and complete honesty coupled with a non-accusing tone has done wonders in our marriage. Admittedly, she (and I like to think I as well) is super down to earth and is rarely motivated by emotion.

I have used this technique in the past, but not as harsh demeaning language as it wasn’t as serious of an issue as this. But if his wife is cheating on him or is at least playing with the idea... its likely she FEELS he isn’t meeting any of her needs. The first step in fixing an issue like this is validating feelings. Start off by agreeing with what we know she is feeling and it opens doors that have otherwise been shut.

And I think it is immensely important that you lay out clear options. Divorce or stay together. If you just talk about it without giving any clear end goal, at least in my experience, nothing will come of it and it will just be a blip in a long life of nothing happening.

Edited by Fether

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9 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

I will likely have some follow up questions for a couple of you.    However I would give a thank you for each that invested time to read, understand, consider, and invest in trying to help.  I try to do that same on some other forum with great success.   But my own problems are much harder to deal with for myself.

I would/will do whatever I can with the abilities I have or can learn about this topic. 

All commented for me to be more assertive is key..    I agree and that is the primary reason that I had adopted red pill marriage.  Honestly without that it would be over already I think.  The impact has been significant,  I just don't like the final steps as they don't fit me,  they might work as her anxiety is high now.  I need to lower that anxiety but also my own.  That is why asking a different group like this one.

I have a difficult time with discussion to her,  she is so far able to control the feelings/frame.  Meaning that anything she doesn't like gets greeted by divorce threat or wild wild emotion swings...  Also part of the reason I go to red pill marriage to learn how to deal with that and introduce some power balance change so as to allow communication.   That is part of the core principal in being willing to walk away.....  I would be so very happy to just sit with her and talk it all out and make it ok.  Her control is to not allow that... She will not marriage counseling and where we live in the world it is not really available.

She is about 40 and I 15 years older...   And yes as a 40 year old she can compete with younger girls but that will change quickly in the next years.  The guys are about 35ish and the contact method is kids activities.  They are also married with families...   except one.  I don't think she is looking for any replacement of me unless one just happens to show up.  I am a very strong provider by several times over these others...   Its all about keeping control of me and still doing whatever...  and getting me to accept it by words or threats.   Now you might say,  get away and just end it.  but maybe the view from her would sound different.. and I can be wrong... and then the kids... 

I can of course just walk away..    I must do all I can first,  and that involves asking others when I don't know what to do.  It is not just something I can talk to others about that know her/us.

I had already told my suspicions before starting red pill(basically the candid talk)...  and that did not help...  I had expected something like really... no way...   Instead I got fiery Anger,  the type that would suggest it was true.

If something else occurs to you based from this update pls share.

Some comments based on your feedback.  I was pretty accurate about her looks and probably the reason why she married you-i.e. she saw you as the safe, stable provider who to provide protection and resources for her while she had kids.  You are 55 and she is 40, been married 15 years so when you go married she was 25 and you 40.  Now here's another thing think about.

Why is it that she didn't marry some other guy who was in his 30s?  She must have been quite the looker at 25, meaning she could have grabbed guys who were stable in their upper 20s to lower 30s?  Most men are able to be good providers by the time they are late 20s early 30s . . .so why did she go 15 years her senior?  At 25, she's not completely inexperienced in the world-probably graduated college, been in the workforce, possibly mission. So why go 15+ years . . .especially if she is a looker. 

I believe you gave a hint as to why in the above.  My guess is because the men just a little older were either already gone (as in already married) OR rejected her.  Why would a 30-35 year old man reject a 25 year old really good looking woman?  You said it in the paragraph above-but not in the words I'm going to use. 

Emotional maturity.

She uses threats, she is able to control the conversation, control the tone, the emotional setting, the emotional blackmailing of divorce, etc. For someone who is 40, she is extremely emotionally immature. My guess is she probably met a few guys closer to her age, but they recognized her emotional immaturity and said, nah pass.  That's why she is going with younger men-she is extremely emotional immature and used her good looks and her threats of leaving you hanging over your head for the past 15 years.  It's probably why you were never able to stand up to her (nor help her develop emotional maturity).  You felt so blessed to have married her, to be so lucky to marry this great looking gal that you overlooked and ignored her emotional immaturity for so long.

So now the question is what do you do about it. She is an emotionally immature adult at 40 and that's a hard thing to deal with. How do you deal with an emotionally immature adult? She is not a child, however there are lessons that can be learned from dealing with children.  Children are by nature emotionally immature. They throw tantrums over the smallest things, one minute they are happy, the next minute sad.  Tell a child no that hasn't learned to hear no and they melt-down. 

The best way to deal with a child is to not get sucked into their drama. The best way to deal with an emotionally immature adult is the same thing-don't get sucked into their drama. Don't get emotionally involved in the discussion.  Stop worrying about divorce and stop letting that emotional blackmail determine what you are going to do. Be prepared that she might just as well divorce you (so prepare financially), however you can't step up and be the leader she needs if you are worried about it or letting it affect your decisions.

Like I said, you've got to develop boundaries.  If she starts emotional manipulation and talking about divorce-just tell her calmly but firmly "I won't entertain discussions about divorce, this conversation is over"  Mean it and walk away.  If you need to just leave the house until she calms down do so. She is testing you when she brings up divorce and uses it as a weapon . . .as in "is divorce an actual possibility or not?" You have to be the leader and shut it down. You have to be a leader and be absolutely clear about when exactly you would divorce her.  Would you divorce her if she was promiscuous?  If possible, then be blunt and say when she brings up divorce "The only time I would ever entertain divorce is if you have screwed around with another man, otherwise this conversation is over".  You've let her know exactly where the line stands that if she is trying to get you to divorce her, she knows what she needs to do in order to make that happen.

If she starts in with wild mood swings when she doesn't get what she wants, be clear firm and use as few words as possible.  "I'm not going to engage in a conversation like this" or "when you are calm then we can talk" and leave, walk away go take a drive, go read scriptures, etc. She can learn to control her emotions, she can learn to be more rational and less immature, it is very possible, it's just that she's never been forced to do so.  Because of her looks she has been able to get exactly what she wants through emotionally immature behavior. So start teaching her by example how to do so.

Be a leader to your wife.  She needs to know how to become an emotionally mature adult.  The only way she can do that is by seeing what an emotionally mature adult looks like-i.e. from a leader.  So if you can step up and be emotionally mature-completely ignore her childish tantrums, she will eventually realize that it gets her nothing and eventually she will either learn to be more emotionally mature OR she will decide she will commit adultery so you will divorce her OR she will divorce you just because.

The only way at this point to avoid divorce is for her to become emotionally mature-otherwise it's going to happen one way or another.

Edited by cat123

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

But if his wife is cheating on him or is at least playing with the idea... its likely she FEELS he isn’t meeting any of her needs. The first step in fixing an issue like this is validating feelings. Start off by agreeing with what we know she is feeling and it opens doors that have otherwise been shut.

Unfortunately, the problem with emotionally immature individuals is they don't know what they want or what they need.  They have their feelings all mixed up and confuse what they feel they need with what they really need.

I use children, b/c it's easiest to see the pattern with children.  A child feels they need to play video games all night long and when a parent tells them no, they will get all upset and have a big fit.

An emotionally immature adult (in this case a woman) will feel they need "validation" about their looks, their ability to catch a man and will start flirting with other men, another adult tells them no and they get upset and have a big fit.

Someone who is emotionally immature (a child or a adult) has absolutely no concept of what they really need and are only ruled by their emotions instead of allowing emotions to be a part of them-but not ruled by them. For and emotionally immature adult whatever they feel is whatever they need.  For an emotionally mature adult, they recognize that sometimes our feelings mislead us, sometimes you can't get what you want, that while yes it would be great to stay up late doing your favorite thing-you'll pay for it the next day.  Someone who is emotionally immature can't do that. Someone who is emotionally mature recognizes that while it might be fun to go flirt with and have a fantasy relationship with that good looking guy/gal-it doesn't pay and in the long run is extremely detrimental.

Edited by cat123

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6 hours ago, cat123 said:

An emotionally immature adult (in this case a woman) will feel they need "validation" about their looks, their ability to catch a man and will start flirting with other men, another adult tells them no and they get upset and have a big fit.

 

Wow,  and double wow.  You seem to completely get it..   I did not exactly expect that/this on this forum.  I was actually wanting to learn about how wrong I am in how I see things now and that most of the red pill info is just wrong.  It is very difficult for me to accept the truth of it,  I for sure had always dreamed of the Disney type relationship,  and went WAY down the beta path.  But instead you confirm.  and yes,  recently the flirting in front of me was starting to drive me nuts.  That has now stopped in a compliant way,  but lots of complain about needing to stop.   The guys would look at me like what is going on...   She also does treat girls the similar way... I had considered that maybe she did not understand the difference...   For sure the guys would ALWAYS take a step back or two if I approached.   I married her on a K1 visa... based on what you appear to understand that will likely tell a lot more.  We are now living in the girls country.  The reason I did that is explained earlier..  Also in almost any social group she will within days or weeks become the dominate girl,  I think it is based on her ability to get the attention of the male group leaders.  Most of the girls just seem to fall in line with her.

I just seen all the physical signs and symptoms of having taken a plan B pill this last month...  all of them including temp high blood pressure, vomit, nasea, supper tired, late.., mood swing times 2.     However no proof ever of anything that is for sure.  It seems like the pill worked if that is what occurred...  but her attitude changed some during the days when it would be uncertain if it worked.  I am so ashamed now to watch the other ppl in public as they probably all know.  Not sure if I am over the line in this topic for this forum..  Why this is important is that I could not have any more kids and that would have been the proof.  I almost almost.. wish I had the proof so I will be at peace about it.  If I am wrong... it makes me a really bad person to feel this way.

I really want to learn that I am wrong... I suspect many/most would have already run.

I don't have ANY support system for myself for now.

Do you happen to know if there is something like a virtual ward... ?  The girl doesn't want us involved with LDS for reasons I would tell later.

I guess your a girl??   I had started to feel bad things about all girls..  but you seem very grounded,  like really having a true core.  Maybe there are others also like that.

 

I have worked to understand validation... reading book Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch.  It tells about how to learn self validation.

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1 hour ago, SomeGuy said:

Wow,  and double wow.  You seem to completely get it..   I did not exactly expect that/this on this forum.  I was actually wanting to learn about how wrong I am in how I see things now and that most of the red pill info is just wrong.  It is very difficult for me to accept the truth of it,  I for sure had always dreamed of the Disney type relationship,  and went WAY down the beta path.  But instead you confirm.  and yes,  recently the flirting in front of me was starting to drive me nuts.  That has now stopped in a compliant way,  but lots of complain about needing to stop.   The guys would look at me like what is going on...   She also does treat girls the similar way... I had considered that maybe she did not understand the difference...   For sure the guys would ALWAYS take a step back or two if I approached.   I married her on a K1 visa... based on what you appear to understand that will likely tell a lot more.  We are now living in the girls country.  The reason I did that is explained earlier..  Also in almost any social group she will within days or weeks become the dominate girl,  I think it is based on her ability to get the attention of the male group leaders.  Most of the girls just seem to fall in line with her.

I just seen all the physical signs and symptoms of having taken a plan B pill this last month...  all of them including temp high blood pressure, vomit, nasea, supper tired, late.., mood swing times 2.     However no proof ever of anything that is for sure.  It seems like the pill worked if that is what occurred...  but her attitude changed some during the days when it would be uncertain if it worked.  I am so ashamed now to watch the other ppl in public as they probably all know.  Not sure if I am over the line in this topic for this forum..  Why this is important is that I could not have any more kids and that would have been the proof.  I almost almost.. wish I had the proof so I will be at peace about it.  If I am wrong... it makes me a really bad person to feel this way.

I really want to learn that I am wrong... I suspect many/most would have already run.

I don't have ANY support system for myself for now.

Do you happen to know if there is something like a virtual ward... ?  The girl doesn't want us involved with LDS for reasons I would tell later.

I guess your a girl??   I had started to feel bad things about all girls..  but you seem very grounded,  like really having a true core.  Maybe there are others also like that.

 

I have worked to understand validation... reading book Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch.  It tells about how to learn self validation.

It doesn't surprise me in the least bit that she gets to the top of the female hierarchy pretty quickly. In general, women's hierarchy is dominated by who can get the guys and who can be the most emotionally manipulative.  As much an outrageous movie "Mean Girls" is-there is a whole heck of a lot of truth in it when it comes to female hierarchy.

If you are in her country, well that is no bueno-especially if you don't know the culture very well.  It's possible (but IMO highly unlikely) that her behavior is more typical for that culture. I think it highly unlikely, however some culture are much more affectionate than US culture-i.e. they give hugs and kisses (on each side of the cheek).  Some cultures it is seen as no big deal for a married man to give a female friend a hug and a kiss on her cheek.  That is a serious no-no in US culture.  That's where you have to find someone you can trust in that culture-a good Bishop maybe-and simply straight up ask, my wife is doing xyz is this behavior is typical for your culture?  More likely than not, it's not appropriate.  And from what you stated I'm 99.9% sure it's not . . .but it's always good to run that to ground.

From what I've gathered the Plan B or abortion pill is not a pleasant experience and so if your gut is telling you something was off about more likely than not it was. The thing you have to do with your gut is to analyze it and tear down why exactly it is that you have those gut feelings and when you do (which it sounds like you've done a good bit of that) you can build up evidence to support or disprove your gut . . . .most likely your gut is right.

Why are you ashamed for her behavior? If she is sleeping and whoring around-that reflects on her not on you.

There is an absolutely fabulous scene in "Gone with the Wind"-long movie but excellent. Well Ms. Scarlett has married Rhett Butler but secretly still wants to be with another man, Ashley-who is married. She is at Ashley's place of work and they either kiss or hug tightly and other relatives see them.   Word gets back to Rhett and Ashley's wife (who is Scarlett's best friend).  That evening was a birthday party for Ashley.'s wife.  So what to do, what to do. Rhett is being cuckholded.  Scarlett doesn't want to go to the party.  Well Rhett tells her, yes you are going and you are going to wear this dress (which happens to be a very sensuous red dress), and you are going ALONE!  Basically, Rhett refuses to take responsibility for Scarlet's bad behavior and forces her to face the music-it's a great scene.

Nope, I'm a dude married ~15 years myself.  Just been through enough and a lot that I had to face my own music in my own marriage (thankfully nothing with infidelity) many moons ago.  I sort of self red-pilled.  I've never gone to those websites/forums, but I'm familiar enough with their arguments and there is a whole litany of reasons as to why this is a fairly typical problem now. I've gone from an absolutely horrific, horrible get me out of here marriage to a pretty peaceful one.  It's taken work on both our parts.  So I know it's possible. Seeing what marriage can be and it can be quite wonderful-I really do feel sorry for all the MGTOW, incels, etc. that have such distaste and dislike for women. I more have distaste/dislike for the cultural system which has given rise to our current situation.

Some general bits of advice that I've learned.

1) Don't shoulder other individuals responsibilities. Everyone needs help from time to time, but you have to know when to let others lie in the bed they made so to speak. Don't make excuses for other's bad behavior. Each person is responsible for their own feelings, their own actions, their own behaviors.

2) You both have to be extremely stubborn, as in we are both stubborn enough in the concept of this marriage working that we WILL make it work one way or another!

3) You have to actually be married to each other, being a husband and being a wife is a role that you play and those roles (husband/wife) should be the 1st roles you play, above mother/father, above provider/breadwinner/homemaker. And being married is much, much more than a stupid piece of paper signed by some stupid "official".

4) The best place for advice on how to be married is found in the Scriptures.  Genesis, Moses, Abraham, Ephesians, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy and Proverbs.  You will NEVER find better marriage advice than what is found in the Word of God. When you study the scriptures, specifically the parts that describe relationships between men and women God WILL enlighten your mind and give you understanding about how to approach things.

Some ancillary things that have helped me better understand people, relationships, etc.  I really do like listening to Stefan Molyneux's podcasts when he talks to people about their problems.  Those shows are generally about 2 hours, but you will learn quite a bit in those two hours of listening, and you come away from it thinking "well at least I don't have that guy's problems!!!!!!"

I've been through a lot in my life and come out on the other side-so if you need more specific help feel free to PM me.

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On 10/12/2019 at 5:50 AM, NeedleinA said:

When you asked her why she is no longer in love with you, what was her answer?
What is her reason for lack of respect, admiration and general boredom with you?

I would offer up two thoughts.
1. You either have faults (we all do) that you need to honestly work on. Help her fall in love with you 'again'.
OR
2. Perhaps your suspicions are correct, she is unfaithful AND therefore she is creating/finding unnecessary faults with you in an effort to mask her own misdeeds.

Agreed. Not a path with lasting happiness as its destination.

The answer was that she wanted a break..  the break was to look like me going away for awhile but to continue to fund her lifestyle.  No direct reason for lack of respect, admiration.  a denial of anything that would suggest that she was not being perfect and that she was just fine with how thing are.  This conversation occurred early this year when I first become aware that there can be issue with other men.  the reason was that she wanted to attend the kids events but was very insist that I not attend for a variety of reasons,  non really acceptable to me,  but I did comply...  Then when I did finally attend something I seen first hand body language directed to the leader of that group that looked like a problem.  Since I spent some time to try to educate about that sort of thing,  and the more I learned the more it looked bad..   she very defensive of this one and had started telling in the home about all the great ideas of the man and looking to get kids to follow his ideas.  I let it go for a short time but eventually had something to say about it and the conversation quickly went badly.   As I had no proof of anything,  the situation continued...  It included at that time the girl to have 99% attention on cell phone with messenger and txt.  somewhat private..  All hours of the day and night.   There are plenty of valid for this such as interactions with social group that is OK.   The cell phone however had priority over everything else,  including myself and kids..  This went on for couple months.  I complained about it but,  was met with anger and twisting about why is it not ok to spend free time doing this.  Never any real conversation about it,  only emotional war.  At that time it was several months into the year and I discovered married red pill,  this is the more hard core of the variants.  After reading the material and there is a lot of it,  I spent days in rage... as it was all so true and could have been written from my life story that was going on.  

I am glad I did not agree to the break..  what I could learn in married red pill is that the break was really time for her to evaluate if the new guy can be a suitable replacement.  There was also one month during this time frame that she had all the symptoms of having taken a plan b emergency pill.  At that time it did not occur to me for that to be what had happened.  The more recent time I was more tuned to think about it.   Now later I have found out that that guys wife was pregnant at the time.. and is never available to husband.   Meanwhile my wife has become very/completely emotionally cold and mean...   remember she had just asked if I could just go away...  By this time she has already clearly become the top or queen of the ladies social order of this group.

I learned by red pill,  that this is very common and there are forums of thousands of guys that are having the same things happen.   These are not perfect men by any means just like I am not but the girls are just tearing them apart and most of them/us don't know what to do about it because all we wanted was the Disney fairy tail.  The more we try to be nice to the girl,  the more they loose respect.  I never would have believed that but it is very true,  I have seen it and interacted with many guys that have found it true.

I am try to have her fall in love again,  that is the PLAN...  She is still fighting for control with me...  I think she can tell that I do not want to cross the line to win..  She ALWAY will do anything to win.  It seems that to win this one I will have to sacrifice some of my self,  there just has to be another way.  That is why I am here.  I get what the goals are to win... and why getting some competitors to her can help.   But what else can have the same effect?

Recently she completely toned down flirting and everything that was out of place.   Due to anxiety caused by my change of character as prescribed by red pill.  In the place we live with the recent changes I have done I can easily compete or exceed the interest she gets from others.  I have to force myself to ignore it for now.  however another reason to tone down flirting is if she already has the interest of the guy wanted.   As of now there are several choices as kids are in several clubs,  and they all have an alpha guy...  that she seems to have control of.  This is like a bad dream...    Of course,  her viewpoint is no no no no,  trust trust trust trust... 

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2 hours ago, cat123 said:

Nope, I'm a dude married ~15 years myself.  Just been through enough and a lot that I had to face my own music in my own marriage (thankfully nothing with infidelity) many moons ago.  I sort of self red-pilled.  I've never gone to those websites/forums, but I'm familiar enough with their arguments and there is a whole litany of reasons as to why this is a fairly typical problem now. I've gone from an absolutely horrific, horrible get me out of here marriage to a pretty peaceful one.  It's taken work on both our parts.  So I know it's possible. Seeing what marriage can be and it can be quite wonderful-I really do feel sorry for all the MGTOW, incels, etc. that have such distaste and dislike for women. I more have distaste/dislike for the cultural system which has given rise to our current situation.

thanks for your support.   sorry for my mistake.  most guys don't write as well as you do.  but now that I think about it,  I can see the style diff that I missed before.

I am try for that conversion to peaceful also.

Like others that have learned this stuff,  my entire view of social interaction has changed radically.  I could now see some reasons why LDS is setup as it is and reasons for some of the challenges that occur.  Much of it rooted in this stuff.

If I would have known before,  I for sure could have avoided the problems I have now.

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On 10/12/2019 at 1:21 PM, Vort said:

I have no real input for the OP. Just be honest and try much harder.

 

I agree.  Most things that I have succeeded at,  it is because of not giving up.

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On 10/12/2019 at 11:45 AM, Jedi_Nephite said:

Quite frankly, if she is cheating, she has more to answer than he does.  But, like I said before, if he finds out for certain that she really is unfaithful, it is something that he needs to approach with through prayer.

I know what you say and agree.

How much responsibility is on the other guys(s).  For example they know who I am and about me and proceed to spin an emotional girl.   It is pretty easy to do if one knows how.  I have seen first hand how a girls mood changes the personality and how easy it can be to flip that around short term if the girl isn't paying close attention to what is going on.  Is the guy that does that responsible for anything?  Most guys don't know how to do this or that it can be done.  ALL of the top alpha guys know it or instinctively know it. 

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On 10/12/2019 at 1:21 AM, Vort said:

I would be very careful about doing this. Which is to say, bluntly, I would not do this. If I felt the need to say such things to my wife, I would be very strictly honest about my shortcomings. I would not exaggerate them in any way to try to "prove" my sincerity—nor would I seek to minimize my wrongs. I certainly would not say "I have been an awful husband" or "I'm not meeting any of your needs". Such grandiose, hyper-self-critical statements don't work anywhere but Hollywood.

I have no real input for the OP. Just be honest and try much harder.

Just my 2¢, probably worth no more than that.

It also sounds like it isn't a "me" thing.  It's an "us" thing.  They aren't a team.  

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14 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

How to fix? 

I'm not a marriage counselor.  My wife would probably tell you I'm the last person you should ask.  Communication is key, though.  I'd get counseling if I were you.

Edited by Grunt

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