Adam and Eve's purpose


helamanc10
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The creation of the world was necessary for humanity to be born and have experiences of their own. The Lord created bodies for Adam and Eve, they saw him, they walked with him, they did not need anything because they did not have a purpose. They could not distinguish evil from good, they were even naked and did not know about it. They were INNOCENT.

We do not know how long they were in that state, but we do know that they could not open the gates for us to be born. Not until the serpent fooled Eve to eat the fruit of the three of good and evil. The serpent told Eve “Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” Genesis 3:4-5. This was half a truth and half a lie, she did not die right away, but she became mortal knowing good and evil. The same happened to Adam once he ate of the fruit.

Because of this, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, and were not allowed to go back to it. They were commanded to work in order to eat, and to multiply and replenish the earth. At this point, many people would think that Satan’s was successful in his plan to make Adam and Eve fall and disobey God, the truth is that there was no other way for them to have children, they were immortal. It is true that humanity found themselves in a fallen state from which only Christ could get us out of.

In the current state of humanity, man was away from God, only selected people such as prophets could see him and guide the people with the Lord’s help. Christ’s atonement helps us redeem from the fall and his effects on us. Furthermore, it helps us to be able to return to him and live with him once more through covenants and our obedience to his laws. 2 Nephi 9:6-12

The fall of Adam and Eve was not something we should blame them for, we should be grateful they fell. Without it, the Plan of Salvation would have been frustrated and no one could have ever been born. We would have never had the privilege to see the wonderful creations that are on earth or experience the company of the people we now cherish and love.

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On 10/12/2019 at 2:38 PM, helamanc10 said:

At this point, many people would think that Satan’s was successful in his plan to make Adam and Eve fall and disobey God, the truth is that there was no other way for them to have children, they were immortal. It is true that humanity found themselves in a fallen state from which only Christ could get us out of.

What characteristic allows an immortal Heavenly Father and Mother to have children
but prevents an immortal Adam and Eve (in the Garden before the Fall) to do so?

What is the curse of Adam mentioned in Moroni 8:8?

Thank you,

Gale

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1 hour ago, GaleG said:

What characteristic allows an immortal Heavenly Father and Mother to have children
but prevents an immortal Adam and Eve (in the Garden before the Fall) to do so?

This is an apples and oranges question.

Adam and Eve's birthing of children was the creation of physical bodies.  The process involving everything we're familiar with physical birthing. 

The Heavenly Father and Mother's was a spiritual creation.  We don't know what's all involved here, but it obviously didn't involve the physical things we mortals associate with physical births. 

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1 hour ago, GaleG said:

What characteristic allows an immortal Heavenly Father and Mother to have children
but prevents an immortal Adam and Eve (in the Garden before the Fall) to do so?

What is the curse of Adam mentioned in Moroni 8:8?

Thank you,

Gale

This is  a good question to ask that sometimes can be utilized to analyze how we interpret the situation.

Could Adam and Eve have had children in the Garden.  Preliminary thoughts seem to indicate that they could not.  Lehi states

Quote

22. And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden; and all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created, and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23. And they would have had no children, wherefore, they would have remained in a state of innocence; having no joy, for they knew know sorrow, doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25. Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy.

Thus, at first glance it indicates that in the state they were in, they must have remained in the same state.  This could be used to infer that the reason we come to this earth is because change is able to occur.  That, mortality is the only place where change can happen, while eternal states nothing can change.  However, this is a surface view, for if this was so, then how spiritual children created and how would one continue to have children in the eternities?

Something to note in the verse I quoted above which is one of the chief verses we use when stating this idea that the fall was necessary is that it DOES NOT state that Eve fell that men might be, but that ADAM fell that men might be.

This is important, for it indicates that only Adam's fall was necessary that men might be, not Eve's.  Why would this be?

If we think about how we proclaim about the family today, and that both men and women were necessary, then we realize that a man by himself cannot have children.  In the same way, a woman by herself cannot have children.  There needs to be both of them for children to occur.  Thus, by partaking of the forbidden fruit, Even was going to be cast out of the garden/die in that same day that she partook of it.  Adam would then have no woman there to have children with.  Thus, if he were to follow the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, he would need to also partake of the fruit in order to also be with Eve (though other questions could arise, such as did he realize that he wouldn't die physically the same mortal day as he partook or not, though obviously he died spiritually that day, as well as within the 1000 year day idea that was given as a heavenly day time period as well).

Hence, for there to be children, and men, Adam at that point had a choice.  He could not partake of the fruit and remain single in the Garden...or he could partake of the fruit and take his chances.  Only in this manner could men be born.

This thought that Adam had to fall in order to be with Eve ALSO follows the argument of why only ADAM is listed as being the one that had to fall so that men might be and not Eve.

Of course, it still does not answer whether they could have had children in the Garden, and the first portion of the verse indicates that they could not have children in the garden anyways on their own. 

The next justification to look at is that the reason they could not have children was that they were in a state of innocence.  In otherwords, they were as children in many ways.  This could mean that though their bodies may actually have physically been able to have children, they did not have the knowledge to act upon this.  They may have been able to have children, but the simply did not realize how.

Then comes the first portion, which I discussed, which is problematic with our current ideas of eternal progression and progeny.  If things cannot change, then there cannot be children.  However, this would apply to any changes which goes counter to the idea of having children in the eternities.

Brigham  Young presented ideas in relation to this which are controversial to a great degree to this day, but answer many of the conundrums that we see regarding our current beliefs/ideas about eternal progression and the scripture above.

Brigham Young tried to explain that the name Adam was utilized in several different ways in the Scriptures.  He would explain it as such.  It is NOT a doctrine taught in the church today, though you can see some of it's element remaining in our teachings, and hence why at times what we teach today can seem in conflict with other things we teach today.

Adam is the word for MAN, or Mankind.  Thus, another reading of the scripture above is that when it says Adam it is both referring to the Man-Adam as well as the Man-Eve.  They are both the entirety of Mankind at the time.

However, it goes deeper than that.  Brigham Young also explained that Adam is also a specific name.  Adam, our mortal father was specifically also named Man, as Adam means Man.  This name was ALSO his Father's name.  Thus you have Father-Adam, and Adam the Son, or the Man-Adam.  Father Adam set forth a plan for his sons and daughters to follow.  Adam the Son thus came to the Garden of Eden with Eve.

Brigham also taught that Adam (the Son) was an immortal being and had already received his Celestial Glory prior to this life.  This idea has Adam bringing Eve his wife and coming to the Earth and consuming plants of food of this mortality.  This caused blood to run through his veins and enable him to have physical children.  Thus, he condescended, or came to Earth and mortality, and this was in fact his fall.  Much of what we see otherwise in Genesis is allegorical to help us understand what took place, but Adam and Eve came to earth not out of sin, but a spiritual thing in order to make it so that man could be.

Thus, they could have had spirit children, but without taking the fruits of this earth, they could NOT have physical children.  The spirit provides the essence for spirit children, but flesh and blood is required for physical/mortal children with physical bodies.

As I said, the above is NOT doctrine and merely was Brigham Youngs opinions on the matter, rather than what we believe today.  However, if we look at that, it could provide some plausible ideas a great many things to me. 

It explains that Adam and Eve were in that holy state where they could not have physical change.  Thus, they could not have a physical change in their bodies and they could not have physical children.  It might have been possible for them to have spiritual children, but the state of innocence meant that they would not have spiritual children either.  In order for this to happen, they needed to have the fall.  When Eve partook of the fruit she became mortal, and as mortal, she was to be tossed out of the Garden.  She literally died, or started to die by becoming mortal, the instant that she partook of the fruit.  Furthermore, she would die spiritually as she would be separated from the Lord in that day.  If Adam was to be with her, he also needed to partake of the fruit, or he would not be able to follow the other commandments of the Lord.  Given this situation, he had to choose between to terrible choices, whether to stay in the Garden or to partake of the fruit.  He had to choose which was the greater commandment I suppose in this case, for he could not obey BOTH commandments (not partake of the fruit and to multiply and replenish the Earth) in this instance.  Thus, he did not sin, but a transgression.

Just some thoughts on the question asked.  I think many will answer in a specific and absolute manner, but I think that at times some questions are more nuanced in their answers then it seems on the surface.

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22 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

We don't know what's all involved here, but it obviously didn't involve the physical things we mortals associate with physical births. 

The emphasized portion of the quote is not something that is known. So, our heavenly parents could have brought children, intelligences, into their home through the same intimate actions and through a similar process.

It isn't obvious, as it is unknown.

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On 10/13/2019 at 2:55 PM, GaleG said:

What characteristic allows an immortal Heavenly Father and Mother to have children
but prevents an immortal Adam and Eve (in the Garden before the Fall) to do so?

What is the curse of Adam mentioned in Moroni 8:8?

Thank you,

Gale

What characteristic allows an immortal Heavenly Father and Mother to have children...

First and foremost, the question you ask is "unknown" and nothing has been "officially" revealed to answer these questions -- although I think @JohnsonJones provided a thorough answer.

Characteristics of our heavenly parents are unknown, except that they are a perfect and in a glorified state. There bodies are different than the bodies which were created for Adam and Eve in the Garden.

Heavenly Father and Mother obviously did not have children with physical bodies. They were spiritual bodies. How, or in what way our intelligences are their offspring, their heirs, is also unknown.

but prevents an immortal Adam and Eve (in the Garden before the Fall) to do so?

This is a speculative question. We do not know if Adam and Eve could never have had children in the garden of Eden. We know Adam and Eve were innocent and were similar to children in understanding and knowledge.

So, first your question assumes they could not because of Eve's words, which are ambiguous fully to what she meant. She could have easily meant, that our bodies -- though capable -- our knowledge did not allow to know a particular use of our bodies -- intimacy.

Second, scriptures are clear, the first time Adam "knew" Eve was after they left the garden. Genesis 4:1, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."

1) Can you provide any scripture which specifies that Adam "knew" Eve before the Fall?

2) How many children do you think "know" about how to have a baby if they have never been taught, in understanding we know Adam and Eve were "innocent" like children pertaining to children as they did not know good from evil?

What is the curse of Adam mentioned in Moroni 8:8?

The Fall. That should have been self-explanatory. There was only one decision Adam made that would affect his offspring -- the fall, which brought sin into the world by which the Atonement covers little children before the age of accountability. Children before the age of accountability are "whole." (or as scriptures state "alive in Christ")

Edited by Anddenex
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On 10/14/2019 at 6:04 PM, Anddenex said:

1) Can you provide any scripture which specifies that Adam "knew" Eve before the Fall?

2) How many children do you think "know" about how to have a baby if they have never been taught, in understanding we know Adam and Eve were "innocent" like children pertaining to children as they did not know good from evil?

1] There is none recorded. I also couldn't find any scripture indicating that they lacked ability or
knowledge to procreate before the Fall.

2] I would say that when God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, he instilled in them the
ability and knowledge. Same for the animals.  I don't believe eating from the forbidden tree gave
them the knowledge of good and evil and sexuality.

Thank you,

Gale

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1 hour ago, GaleG said:

1] There is none recorded. I also couldn't find any scripture indicating that they lacked ability or
knowledge to procreate before the Fall.

2] I would say that when God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, he instilled in them the
ability and knowledge. Same for the animals.  I don't believe eating from the forbidden tree gave
them the knowledge of good and evil and sexuality.

Thank you,

Gale

There is none recorded. I also couldn't find any scripture indicating that they lacked ability or knowledge to procreate before the Fall.

Correct and yes and no. We do not have any scripture specifying "a lack of ability" but we do have scripture pertaining to their innocence before the fall and how their knowledge was like unto a child. We also have scripture specifying Eve's words that they would not have had children. So, was it knowledge or something else that prevented children before the fall?

Here is the scripture we do have:

Quote

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

We also have scripture that "clearly" teaches they "knew" each other after the fall and children were brought into the world. If they had perfect bodies, and if they were intimate sexually, how did they not have children? Why is it clear in scripture that after the "fall" they "knew" each other and brought forth children into the world. Before that -- no children?

I would say that when God commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, he instilled in them the ability and knowledge. Same for the animals.  I don't believe eating from the forbidden tree gave them the knowledge of good and evil and sexuality.

Would you be able to provide any scripture backing your thought, your belief here? If such knowledge was "instilled" in them, then how did they not know they were naked? And why does partaking of the fruit "open their eyes"? If such knowledge was instilled, obviously they would have known they were naked, but they didn't even know what it meant to be naked.

Quote

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

What scripture can you provide then that they knew "good from evil"? What scriptures confirms your belief?

......................................

The point though of my questions were to point out how we don't have much and what we do have can leave content open to interpretation -- right or wrong. The knowledge of our Heavenly parents bodies is unknown. The knowledge, direct knowledge, of why Adam and Eve didn't procreate in the garden is unknown, but we do know from scripture from Eve's words that they wouldn't have had children if they remained in the garden of Eden. We do know, as it is taught clearly, Adam "knew" Eve (sex) after the fall. That is clear.

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

but we do know from scripture from Eve's words that they wouldn't have had children if they remained in the garden of Eden.

I don't see that any change (fear, shame, knowledge of nakedness) came upon Eve even though she ate
first but this only occurred after Adam had also eaten.  Do you see it this way too?

Regarding Moses 5:11 - And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for
our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and
the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient
.

Since Eve is said to have attained this knowledge of good and evil after eating from the forbidden tree,
what do you believe she thought about God for forbidding them from partaking of it?  Do you think she
felt thankful to Satan and a resentment towards God who withheld this from her and Adam (when he
commanded Adam not to eat from it and then reminded him again that it was forbidden - Moses 3:17)?

Did Eve believe "having seed" and "knowing good and evil" were the result of obedience or disobedience?
The reason I ask is because of the phrase "which God giveth unto all the obedient" which supposedly
was applicable to them too.

Thanks,
Jim

Edited by theplains
added extra statement
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1 hour ago, theplains said:

I don't see that any change (fear, shame, knowledge of nakedness) came upon Eve even though she ate
first but this only occurred after Adam had also eaten.  Do you see it this way too?

Regarding Moses 5:11 - And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for
our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and
the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient
.

Since Eve is said to have attained this knowledge of good and evil after eating from the forbidden tree,
what do you believe she thought about God for forbidding them from partaking of it?  Do you think she
felt thankful to Satan and a resentment towards God who withheld this from her and Adam (when he
commanded Adam not to eat from it and then reminded him again that it was forbidden - Moses 3:17)?

Did Eve believe "having seed" and "knowing good and evil" were the result of obedience or disobedience?
The reason I ask is because of the phrase "which God giveth unto all the obedient" which supposedly
was applicable to them too.

Thanks,
Jim

One would have to be a great mind reader of those who lived in the past to answer the questions you have proposed.

what do you believe she thought about God for forbidding them from partaking of it?

Have no clue and neither do you.

Do you think she felt thankful to Satan and a resentment towards God who withheld this from her and Adam?

Do we think she felt thankful to Satan and resentment towards God. Does any scripture specify she was thankful to Satan? If not, then your guess is as good as mine. Resent God? The scriptures do not make it appear as if she was resentful. But all in all this is another silly question that you keep repeating. You seem to go back and back again to the same questions. You have a fixation, religious hobby.

Did Eve believe "having seed" and "knowing good and evil" were the result of obedience or disobedience?

Eve said, "Were it not for our transgression" (Not to offend, but do you ever actually read the verses you actually propose your questions from?) What does this scripture say that you already quoted? What does it mean that Eve knew she transgressed? Anything outside of that would be speculation, unless of course there is scripture that states more than this.

The reason I ask is because of the phrase "which God giveth unto all the obedient" which supposedly was applicable to them too.

This is the type of question clearly highlights a lack of sincerity with your questions, which then I would respond with the same type of question, "Are you saying no one is saved then"?  Please think through your question so they don't come off so easily seen as insincere.

Edited by Anddenex
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2 hours ago, theplains said:

[1] I don't see that any change (fear, shame, knowledge of nakedness) came upon Eve even though she ate
first but this only occurred after Adam had also eaten.  Do you see it this way too?

[2]Regarding Moses 5:11 - And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for
our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and
the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient
.

Since Eve is said to have attained this knowledge of good and evil after eating from the forbidden tree,
what do you believe she thought about God for forbidding them from partaking of it?  Do you think she
felt thankful to Satan and a resentment towards God who withheld this from her and Adam (when he
commanded Adam not to eat from it and then reminded him again that it was forbidden - Moses 3:17)?

[3]Did Eve believe "having seed" and "knowing good and evil" were the result of obedience or disobedience?
The reason I ask is because of the phrase "which God giveth unto all the obedient" which supposedly
was applicable to them too.

Thanks,
Jim

1.  No.  Go and get your endowment, and mediate upon the narrative given therein; and you may eventually understand why.

2.  That, I think, is what Satan hoped would happen.  But it isn’t what happened.  Go and get your endowment, and meditate upon the narrative given therein; and you may eventually understand why.  

3.  Consider a child born out of wedlock—or worse yet, a child born as a result of rape.  We can accept the child as a divine blessing, even as we simultaneously acknowledge that the circumstances in which the child were born were sub-optimal (or perhaps even abominable).  

Even if we accept arguendo that God’s prohibition on taking the fruit was a permanent injunction rather than a temporary expedient (which I don’t):  The blessings Adam and Eve came to acknowledge enjoy were not a result of the fall alone; they were the result of the interaction between their own past fall and Jesus’ future atonement.  Had Adam and Eve not made specific covenants with the Father at some point after their expulsion from Eden, the promise of a Savior (and all the blessings that entails, as spelled out in Moses 5:11) would have availed them nothing.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Even if we accept arguendo that God’s prohibition on taking the fruit was a permanent injunction rather than a temporary expedient (which I don’t):  The blessings Adam and Eve came to acknowledge enjoy were not a result of the fall alone; they were the result of the interaction between their own past fall and Jesus’ future atonement.  Had Adam and Eve not made specific covenants with the Father at some point after their expulsion from Eden, the promise of a Savior (and all the blessings that entails, as spelled out in Moses 5:11) would have availed them nothing.

Indeed. Moses 6:53-63 is an excellent, if brief, description of the purposes of God and the duties of man in the plan of salvation. Note that the passage begins with God announcing (or proclaiming, or perhaps simply stating as a foundational fact) that God had forgiven Adam (and, we may safely presume, Eve) for their actions. That is, Adam was indeed clean before God. Note that this is before (albeit immediately before) Adam's baptism.

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The contents of this thread are significantly different than what I learned in
Catholicism.

In respect to having children, were Adam and Eve impotent (their bodies were not
physically capable), lacking knowledge (they did not know how), or both when God 
said be fruitful and multiply?

Thanks

Jonah

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19 minutes ago, Jonah said:

The contents of this thread are significantly different than what I learned in Catholicism.

In respect to having children, were Adam and Eve impotent (their bodies were not physically capable), lacking knowledge (they did not know how), or both when God said be fruitful and multiply?

The short answer:

We don't know.

The slightly longer answer:

Our prophets and apostles have taught us that Adam and Eve were unable to conceive and produce children while in the garden of Eden, though we do not know the reason why this was so. There has long been a belief in Christianity that "the forbidden fruit" was a euphemism for sex. Our leaders have explicitly taught us that this is not the case; whatever the forbidden fruit was, it wasn't sexual experience. Adam and Eve were married by God, so sex could not have been forbidden.

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1 hour ago, Jonah said:

In respect to having children, were Adam and Eve impotent (their bodies were not
physically capable), lacking knowledge (they did not know how), or both when God 
said be fruitful and multiply?

As Vort said, we don't know.    There are many comments and theories out there from members of our Church, but none are official.  I have heard both.

In addition to what Vort says, we have also been taught that before the fall, there was no way to distinguish pleasure from pain (or happiness and sadness) or knowlege of either.   If there was no concept or knowlege of pleasure (or happiness), it seems to me that there wouldn't be any sexual drive before the fall, even if their bodies were capable (and we don't know if they were or not).

Edited by Scott
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30 minutes ago, Scott said:

As Vort said, we don't know.    There are many comments and theories out there from members of our Church, but none are official.  I have heard both.

In addition to what Vort says, we have also been taught that before the fall, there was no way to distinguish pleasure from pain (or happiness and sadness) or knowlege of either.   If there was no concept or knowlege of pleasure (or happiness), it seems to me that there wouldn't be any sexual drive before the fall, even if their bodies were capable (and we don't know if they were or not).

I have wondered lately:  did they not “know” those concepts, as in, they didn’t know they existed?  Or, were Adam and Eve perhaps aware of them on a philosophical or logical or “intellectual” level, but had no personal experience that gave those concepts any significant meaning?

I sort of lean towards the latter.  At some point Adam and Eve must have understood, pre-fall, opposing concepts like “good” and “bad”, “obey” and “disobey”, “do” and “don’t do”.  Otherwise, how could they be justly held accountable for their choice to eat the fruit?

 

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8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I have wondered lately:  did they not “know” those concepts, as in, they didn’t know they existed?  Or, were Adam and Eve perhaps aware of them on a philosophical or logical or “intellectual” level, but had no personal experience that gave those concepts any significant meaning?

I sort of lean towards the latter.  At some point Adam and Eve must have understood, pre-fall, opposing concepts like “good” and “bad”, “obey” and “disobey”, “do” and “don’t do”.  Otherwise, how could they be justly held accountable for their choice to eat the fruit?

 

A short take of my own off the top of my head...

They weren't really held accountable for eating the fruit, or at least Adam was not.  This is why it is called a Transgression instead of a Sin.  This is similar to children under 8, they cannot sin.  They can transgress a law, but they cannot sin in breaking it.  Because they can transgress the ramifications still can affect them, however, due to the atonement, it covers them in all cases and they are held sinless and not accountable for those mistakes.

Another way to look at it.  The Lord could heal physical ailments when he was here on Earth (and still can).  In the New Testament he repeatedly showed this ability.

Now imagine that a child is driving a car.  They shouldn't be, but let's suppose a 6 year old is driving a car.  They are driving down the road at 90 miles an hour and hit a stone wall.  The car is smashed and the child is seriously injured.  The child may not have realized all the ramifications of what they were doing, but nonetheless, they still suffer the consequences.  In this parallel, the Lord then comes and heals the child completely.  The child has no ramifications for what they did previously. 

The Lord points out in a situation in the New Testament how he can heal physical hurts, but it is actually a lot more to be able to heal Spiritually, and he is also able to do this.

In a similar manner, a transgression, or the things a child does, even if it breaks laws, is covered by the atonement.  They are not held accountable. 

In the same way, what Adam did was to break laws or commandments.  There are repercussions to that.  However, due to the atonement, that is taken out of the equation and neither he nor us suffer from the long term effects that naturally come from it (Physical and Spiritual Death).  However, we can still do things that will affect us spiritually.  A great Majority will not have to suffer the natural consequences of the Spiritual Death that came from Adam's Transgression, though some will cause their OWN spiritual deaths due to their own choices in this life.  There may be a brief separation, but never a total and permanent Spiritual Death unless one makes that choice for themselves.  None will suffer a permanent Physical Death, though we have a temporary period of it.  The Atonement is the counter to the Transgression.

Thus, we believe men will be punished for their own sins and not Adam's transgression.

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On 10/15/2019 at 8:45 PM, Anddenex said:

Correct and yes and no. We do not have any scripture specifying "a lack of ability" but we do have scripture pertaining to their innocence before the fall and how their knowledge was like unto a child. We also have scripture specifying Eve's words that they would not have had children. So, was it knowledge or something else that prevented children before the fall?

I would say they had ability to procreate before the Fall but then their sense of
mortality caused an immediate need to have children since they did not know when
they would physically die (as God told them they would die but did not indicate
a time frame).

Here is a hypothetical - assuming the Book of Mormon and Pearl is not correct on
this aspect of procreation, would you speculate on why they did not have children
before the Fall?

I agree they were in a state of innocence but I believe that God created them
in adult form and he did not teach them how to speak, walk, eat, or do anything
else they did in the Garden.  I believe all this knowledge and ability was in
them already as part of their creation.

Quote

We also have scripture that "clearly" teaches they "knew" each other after the fall and children were brought into the world. If they had perfect bodies, and if they were intimate sexually, how did they not have children? Why is it clear in scripture that after the "fall" they "knew" each other and brought forth children into the world. Before that -- no children?

We are not provided any scripture that says they had or did not have sexual activity
before the Fall.  Were they holding hands? Maybe/maybe not.  Were they kissing? Maybe/
maybe not.  Does sexual intercourse always produce a child?  Don't think so.

Quote

Would you be able to provide any scripture backing your thought, your belief here? If such knowledge was "instilled" in them, then how did they not know they were naked? And why does partaking of the fruit "open their eyes"? If such knowledge was instilled, obviously they would have known they were naked, but they didn't even know what it meant to be naked.

That's a tough one to answer.  I have always wondered if having the knowledge of good and evil
means having a knowledge of being naked or having knowledge of how to have a baby.

But like God gave the animals instinct, I believe he created them with some inbuilt knowledge
- otherwise they would not understand anything he was asking/telling them to do.  Adam was
placed in the garden to tend it (Genesis 2:15.  Apparently he already had this knowledge.

 

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What scripture can you provide then that they knew "good from evil"? What scriptures confirms your belief?

They did not know evil before Fall.  What is your definition of good when there is no evil? If
know that part, I may be able to elaborate with a better opinion.

Thank you,

Gale

Edited by GaleG
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On 10/16/2019 at 8:53 PM, Scott said:

In addition to what Vort says, we have also been taught that before the fall, there was no way to distinguish pleasure from pain

Adam and Eve felt pleasure before the Fall (Genesis 2:8-9; 3:6).

Jonah

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1 hour ago, GaleG said:

Here is a hypothetical - assuming the Book of Mormon and Pearl is not correct on this aspect of procreation, would you speculate on why they did not have children before the Fall?

(putting a whole bunch of the Word of God aside for this hypothetical)

(also putting aside of generic Christian and Jewish tradition on the subject)

Honestly, this boils down to a couple of options:

1) They didn't have children because they couldn't.

2) They could have children but choose not to (either deliberately or through procrastination) and disobeyed God's command.  I don't find that likely, as such disoriented would re-write a lot of history.

3) They could have children and tried, but were unable to conceive.  Which actually comes back to inability.  

1 hour ago, GaleG said:

They did not know evil before Fall.  What is your definition of good when there is no evil? If know that part, I may be able to elaborate with a better opinion.

Good doesn't exist without evil.  There must always be a choice, less everything and everyone are mindless robots.

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1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Adam and Eve felt pleasure before the Fall (Genesis 2:8-9; 3:6).

Jonah

3:6 seems to bear out the idea that Eve at least (thought she) could recognize “good” when she saw it (but see 1 Tim 2:14, indicating she was deceived).  Gen 2:8-9 seems more tenuous—the narrator/God described the garden as good, but doesn’t really say whether or how Adam and Eve arrived at that same perception.  

1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Do you have a reference for that?

Jonah

Doesn’t that idea go all the way back to St. Augustine?

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22 hours ago, Jonah said:

Do you have a reference for that?

Jonah

Not off the top of my head, but it's a common and obvious interpretation, predating Christianity itself by a long way. The idea seemed to get fixed into the Christian mind by Augustine, the greatest and most influential of the old Catholic scholars.

If the Church's leadership had not explicitly taught that the forbidden fruit wasn't sex, I would certainly assume that that's exactly what it was. It's overwhelmingly obvious in all the symbolism used. I think it's almost unmistakable. For example:

  • It's the forbidden FRUIT—the REPRODUCTIVE part of the plant. (As is the tree of life, because it allowed eternal life, as if one's own life reproduces itself.)
  • It's the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, and as we realize, "know" is a common Hebrew metaphor for sex, as in "Adam knew his wife".
  • Adam and Eve were naked but not ashamed—why? Because being innocent, they didn't realize the sexual significance of being naked in each other's presence. Why else would "shame" enter into the question at all?
  • When they partook of the fruit, their curse was that they would die—which of course is the natural end of life.
  • When Adam and Eve disobeyed the Lord and partook of the forbidden fruit, their response was to shamefully cover up—THEIR REPRODUCTIVE PARTS. What sense does that make, unless the forbidden fruit were somehow connected with their private parts?
  • God's so-called curse on Eve was—that she would BEAR CHILDREN in sorrow.
  • What was God's response to the transgression? "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". (Genesis 3:22) And what is God's distinguishing feature above all other things? That he creates. That he is fruitful. The very first verse in all of scripture refers to God's creative powers.

The conditions and consequences of sex are intimately (npi) and inextricably would up with the consumption of the forbidden fruit.

I accept prophetic teaching that the forbidden fruit was not sex, at least not per se. But the connection between the forbidden fruit, the fall of man, the state of holy matrimony between man and woman, and the absolute centrality of sex in those topics cannot be ignored or glossed over. IMO.

Edited by Vort
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So maybe try this on for size. In 2 Nephi 2:11 Lehi states that if opposition did not exist "all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death..." Now the "dead" mentioned can't be the same thing as the "death" mentioned. Dead is a state of being (or is that non-being?) whereas death is a process. So the "life" talked about, in order to be the opposite of death cannot mean the state of being alive (because that is the opposite of being dead) so it must refer to the process of being made alive or in other words birth. So Adam and Eve could not give birth because death had not yet entered the picture, being opposites. 

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