Adam and Eve's purpose


helamanc10
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On 10/18/2019 at 10:34 AM, GaleG said:

I would say they had ability to procreate before the Fall but then their sense of mortality caused an immediate need to have children since they did not know when they would physically die (as God told them they would die but did not indicate a time frame).

Their ability to procreate before the fall is an "unknown." I, personally, am one that believes their bodies were capable, but that is personal opinion as nothing from scripture specifies for or against before the fall. A sense of mortality wouldn't matter to them pertaining to children. Adam lived over 900 years after the fall. They had "perfect" bodies in the Garden. God actually did tell them a time frame.

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Here is a hypothetical - assuming the Book of Mormon and Pearl is not correct on this aspect of procreation, would you speculate on why they did not have children before the Fall?

The topic of this thread is "LDS Gospel Discussion," and in that light, there is no reason to the hypothetical proposed. The Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price are correct regarding when Adam and Eve had children, and the reason Eve provided.

As I am one that personally believes they were capable I have already shared why -- I believe (not Church doctrine) -- they would not have had children.

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I agree they were in a state of innocence but I believe that God created them in adult form and he did not teach them how to speak, walk, eat, or do anything else they did in the Garden.  I believe all this knowledge and ability was in them already as part of their creation.

From scripture it definitely is understood they were created in adult form. We also are told in scripture that they did not know they were "naked" in the garden until after they partook of the fruit. Their knowledge and innocence appear not to be much different than a young child who needs instruction. The Bible, Book of Mormon, and all other scripture doesn't give details as to what God taught them and how much he taught them. God may have taught them or instructed them on how to eat. He may have actually instructed them on how to walk. He also may have taught them on how to take care of the Garden.

What we do know, is that after partaking of the fruit "their eyes were opened" and they at that moment could recognize they were "naked." A very simple aspect of life they had not known.

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We are not provided any scripture that says they had or did not have sexual activity before the Fall.  Were they holding hands? Maybe/maybe not.  Were they kissing? Maybe/maybe not.  Does sexual intercourse always produce a child?  Don't think so.

With a perfect body, not imperfect body, true intercourse doesn't happen every time we have sex. The scriptures, once again, are clear when Adam "knew" Eve. A perfect body would have an easier time having children than an imperfect body. So the likelihood of them having children would have been greater before the Fall, rather than after the Fall. Sounds like you think they were practicing "safe sex" before the Fall, until mortality came upon them and then they looked at each other, "We better start having children and stop preventing the outcome."

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That's a tough one to answer.  I have always wondered if having the knowledge of good and evil means having a knowledge of being naked or having knowledge of how to have a baby.

It is both. Knowledge is accrued by:

1) Knowing opposites

2) Receiving instruction

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But like God gave the animals instinct, I believe he created them with some inbuilt knowledge - otherwise they would not understand anything he was asking/telling them to do.  Adam was placed in the garden to tend it (Genesis 2:15.  Apparently he already had this knowledge.

Unless of course the Lord instructed them and taught them. Similar to the Lord saying of this tree you can eat. Of this tree you should not eat. That right there is giving knowledge/instruction by which then they were accountable for. We don't know what was built in. Adam and Eve were human, not animals.

Genesis 2:15 says the following, "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had amade; and he brested on the seventh day from all his cwork which he had made." I am not sure what knowledge "he" (I think you mean Adam) had from this verse.

The scriptures only specify that Adam and Eve tilled the ground, this doesn't specify they knew how to do it intuitively. They were most likely instructed by God, by which he then said take care of it and they took care of it. We have to remember, not walk around, the whole idea that they didn't even know they were naked, but somehow -- intuitively -- they knew how to tend a garden?

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They did not know evil before Fall.  What is your definition of good when there is no evil? If know that part, I may be able to elaborate with a better opinion.

Thank you,

Gale

Good -- all things from God are good. This tree eat -- sweet. This tree do not eat -- bitter. It really doesn't have anything to do with "my" definition of good and evil.

Edited by Anddenex
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On 10/15/2019 at 11:41 PM, Anddenex said:

Do we think she felt thankful to Satan and resentment towards God. Does any scripture specify she was thankful to Satan? If not, then your guess is as good as mine. Resent God? The scriptures do not make it appear as if she was resentful.

Just wondering if you believe she thought God had deprived her of the wisdom
she sought when she ate from the forbidden tree (Genesis 3:6).

I think that Moses 5:10-11 (if true) would be a little 'dig' by Eve towards God like
Adam apparently did to God when they had this exchange:

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof 
I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
 
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, 
and I did eat.

Adam, instead of taking responsibility, blames the woman - but I see an indirect
blame placed on God by Adam in his response.  Eve follows the blame-game and does
likewise and blames Satan instead of taking responsibility.

Our fallen nature leads some to also say, "It wasn't my fault, the blame is on
someone or something else."


Eve said, "Were it not for our transgression" (Not to offend, but do you ever actually 
read the verses you actually propose your questions from?) What does this scripture say 
that you already quoted? What does it mean that Eve knew she transgressed? Anything 
outside of that would be speculation, unless of course there is scripture that states 
more than this.

Eve knew the command not to eat from the forbidden tree and she voluntarily disobeyed it.

Is that what you meant by your question?


This is the type of question clearly highlights a lack of sincerity with your questions, 
which then I would respond with the same type of question, "Are you saying no one is 
saved then"?  Please think through your question so they don't come off so easily seen 
as insincere.

The reason why I posed my question was based on what Gospel Principles mentions in 
chapter 6:

Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
•    How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like
our Heavenly Father?

Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when
they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-
day scriptures help us understand that their Fall was a necessary
step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of
the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose
between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life.
None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve
remained in the garden.

After the Fall, Eve said, "Were it not for our transgression we never
should have had seed [children], and never should have known
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life
which God giveth unto all the obedient" (Moses 5:11).

Were these blessings on Adam and Eve due to obedience or disobedience?

Thanks,
Jim

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1 hour ago, theplains said:

[1] Just wondering if you believe she thought God had deprived her of the wisdom
she sought when she ate from the forbidden tree (Genesis 3:6).

I think that Moses 5:10-11 (if true) would be a little 'dig' by Eve towards God like
Adam apparently did to God when they had this exchange:

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof 
I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
 
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, 
and I did eat.

Adam, instead of taking responsibility, blames the woman - but I see an indirect
blame placed on God by Adam in his response.  Eve follows the blame-game and does
likewise and blames Satan instead of taking responsibility.

Our fallen nature leads some to also say, "It wasn't my fault, the blame is on
someone or something else."

. . . .

[3]The reason why I posed my question was based on what Gospel Principles mentions in 
chapter 6:

Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
•    How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like
our Heavenly Father?

Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when
they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-
day scriptures help us understand that their Fall was a necessary
step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of
the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose
between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life.
None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve
remained in the garden.

After the Fall, Eve said, "Were it not for our transgression we never
should have had seed [children], and never should have known
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life
which God giveth unto all the obedient" (Moses 5:11).

Were these blessings on Adam and Eve due to obedience or disobedience?

Thanks,
Jim

I’ll say it more plainly:

1.  You haven’t received your endowment.  You don’t know what you’re talking about, and we are covenant-bound not to disclose all we know in this setting.

2.  You haven’t received your endowment.  You don’t know what you’re talking about, and we are covenant-bound not to disclose all we know in this setting.

But, to engage in-kind with the semantical game you continue to play (whilst magnificently ignoring many of the points brought out earlier in the thread), I’ll ask you another question: 

You consider yourself saved through the blood of Jesus Christ who was crucified at the order of Pontius PiIate.  

Are your blessings due to Pilate’s obedience, or disobedience?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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2 hours ago, theplains said:

Just wondering if you believe she thought God had deprived her of the wisdom she sought when she ate from the forbidden tree (Genesis 3:6).

In order to "know" what Eve thought I would have to be an excellent mind reader of those who have died. We do not know what Eve felt regarding the wisdom she did not have while in the garden. Do I feel "deprived" of all the knowledge/wisdom God has that he has not yet taught me? No. In that light, I would say Eve did not feel deprived, but again that is speculation from how I feel knowing that God has not revealed all his wisdom to me and I do not feel deprived.

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I think that Moses 5:10-11 (if true) would be a little 'dig' by Eve towards God like Adam apparently did to God when they had this exchange:

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof 
I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
 
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, 
and I did eat.

Adam, instead of taking responsibility, blames the woman - but I see an indirect
blame placed on God by Adam in his response.  Eve follows the blame-game and does
likewise and blames Satan instead of taking responsibility.

Our fallen nature leads some to also say, "It wasn't my fault, the blame is on
someone or something else."

I think you are thinking to deeply to a very candid/frank conversation between the Lord, Adam, and Eve; although, we as humans do in fact blame others at time when we do something wrong.  It appears you are reading into these verses as well. The conversation is simple:

The Lord asks a question recognizing their new found knowledge. Adam responds with exactly what happened. Eve gave him the fruit and Adam partook of the fruit that man may be. Adam took responsibility of his decision with an explanation of what happened. There is no "indirect" blame on God. You are now "adding to" scripture.

Eve responds also very candidly/frankly, letting God know she in fact did partake of the fruit because she was beguiled by Satan -- the serpent. The concept of not taking responsibility is your personal interpretation, not what is happening here. She is clear, "The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." She obviously is taking responsibility of allowing the serpent to beguile her.

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Eve knew the command not to eat from the forbidden tree and she voluntarily disobeyed it.

Is that what you meant by your question?

I simple asked if you read the verse carefully enough to answer your own question. The scriptures are clear that Eve knew she transgressed, and if so, I am unsure the reason for your question when the scripture itself answers it.

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The reason why I posed my question was based on what Gospel Principles mentions in 
chapter 6:

Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression
•    How does the Fall provide opportunities for us to become like
our Heavenly Father?

Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when
they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-
day scriptures help us understand that their Fall was a necessary
step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of
the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose
between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life.
None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve
remained in the garden.

After the Fall, Eve said, "Were it not for our transgression we never
should have had seed [children], and never should have known
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life
which God giveth unto all the obedient" (Moses 5:11).

Were these blessings on Adam and Eve due to obedience or disobedience?

Thanks,
Jim

I believe in light of scripture (and Gospel Principles) the answer is quite clear, right?

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On 10/20/2019 at 9:24 PM, Anddenex said:

Their ability to procreate before the fall is an "unknown." I, personally, am one that believes their bodies were capable, but that is personal opinion as nothing from scripture specifies for or against before the fall.

Thank you Anddenex.

I found something similar echoed at

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1973/09/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/why-did-the-lord-command-adam-and-eve-to-multiply-in-the-garden-of-eden-when-they-could-not-have-children-before-the-fall?lang=eng

and

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/lessons-1-5/lesson-2-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

Gale

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On 10/26/2019 at 12:57 PM, GaleG said:

Does  "would not"  equal  "could not"?    What about "did not"?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1973/09/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/why-did-the-lord-command-adam-and-eve-to-multiply-in-the-garden-of-eden-when-they-could-not-have-children-before-the-fall?lang=eng

- One important point to consider in this question is whether or not Adam and 
Eve could have had children while they were in the Garden of Eden. The scriptures 
do not say Adam and Eve could not have children; they say Adam and Eve would 
not
have had children if they had remained in a state of innocence, not knowing 
good from evil.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/lessons-1-5/lesson-2-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

- 4. Procreation. Before the fall there was no procreation. ... Adam and Eve, in 
their Edenic state, could not have children, nor, as we shall see, could any 
form of life when first placed on the newly created paradisiacal earth.

Found this other one on the church website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-book-of-genesis/lesson-11-moses-5-1-11?lang=eng

Chart - before the Fall - Adam and Eve could not have children.

Cheers.

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On 10/12/2019 at 12:38 PM, helamanc10 said:

The creation of the world was necessary for humanity to be born and have experiences of their own. The Lord created bodies for Adam and Eve, they saw him, they walked with him, they did not need anything because they did not have a purpose. They could not distinguish evil from good, they were even naked and did not know about it. They were INNOCENT.

We do not know how long they were in that state, but we do know that they could not open the gates for us to be born. Not until the serpent fooled Eve to eat the fruit of the three of good and evil. The serpent told Eve “Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” Genesis 3:4-5. This was half a truth and half a lie, she did not die right away, but she became mortal knowing good and evil. The same happened to Adam once he ate of the fruit.

Because of this, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, and were not allowed to go back to it. They were commanded to work in order to eat, and to multiply and replenish the earth. At this point, many people would think that Satan’s was successful in his plan to make Adam and Eve fall and disobey God, the truth is that there was no other way for them to have children, they were immortal. It is true that humanity found themselves in a fallen state from which only Christ could get us out of.

In the current state of humanity, man was away from God, only selected people such as prophets could see him and guide the people with the Lord’s help. Christ’s atonement helps us redeem from the fall and his effects on us. Furthermore, it helps us to be able to return to him and live with him once more through covenants and our obedience to his laws. 2 Nephi 9:6-12

The fall of Adam and Eve was not something we should blame them for, we should be grateful they fell. Without it, the Plan of Salvation would have been frustrated and no one could have ever been born. We would have never had the privilege to see the wonderful creations that are on earth or experience the company of the people we now cherish and love.

This garden epoch as written in Genesis is a great example of flaws in attempting to understand the "literal" meaning of scripture.  Genesis is written in an ancient Hebrew poetic style and literal construction.  In the Book of Mormon Nephi instructs us that such scriptures cannot be understood properly without guidance by the Holy Spirit and a elementary understanding of the styles and methods of the Jews (ancient Hebrews).  

I would ask the question - How ridiculous is it to read poetry and attempt to understand the intended meaning through the literal meaning of each word?  When it comes to scripture there is a basic religious belief that it is impossible for man to, of his own accord, to create sacred scripture.  Rather it is necessary that G-d influence the man and to inspire and instruct him to write sacred scripture.  Like wise it is impossible for a man to read and understand sacred scripture on his own accord - rather it is necessary that G-d influences, inspires and instructs any man to under the sacred meaning.

The garden epoch is taught as a spiritual symbolism of the fall of mankind from the presents of G-d and his mercy.  In short it is symbolic of humanities choice (agency) to experience (obtain knowledge) of good and evil.  The evil is symbolic of the wages of sin - which is death.  The good is symbolic of the mercy and grace of G-d - which is the atonement of Christ that redeems mankind from sin and death through the resurrection.

Obviously man could not experience sin and death and remain in the presents of G-d's mercy.  And to be separated (exiled) from G-d man must through agency choose to transgress the law.  Satan - which is symbolized by a serpent  (And I would note that the serpent is symbolic of a Messiah) so that Satan lied and beguiled Eve into thinking he was the Messiah (symbolism that is lost from most considering the garden epoch.)

The children of Adam and Eve are symbolic of the seed of a covenant which required or included the fall.  More of this could be explained with the understanding that the name or term "Adam" mean all of mankind that is involved in a covenant with G-d.  The name or term "Eve" is symbolic of womanhood and the creation of life.  The individuals that are Adam and Eve are individuals that stand in proxy of the covenant G-d makes with all mankind to bring about his work of salvation - thus the seed or offspring of the man Adam and the woman Eve are all partakers in the fall and the divine work of salvation.  So it is that there could not be children of a covenant unless there was a covenant.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Rather it is necessary that G-d influence the man and to inspire and instruct him to write sacred scripture.  Like wise it is impossible for a man to read and understand sacred scripture on his own accord - rather it is necessary that G-d influences, inspires and instructs any man to under the sacred meaning.

This is intelligence, light and truth. It is impossible to know God without the Comforter.

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On 11/4/2019 at 2:45 PM, Anddenex said:

This is intelligence, light and truth. It is impossible to know God without the Comforter.

I agree and would also add that it is impossible to know of G-d's works (Law, Ordinances and Covenants) without the Comforter and the keys of the priesthood.

 

The Traveler

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